Need Help Identifying 100-Amp Load Center

[kbuhagiar]

Hello GJ Nation,

I need assistance identifying the load panel in my garage. The removable door on the right side which covers the breakers is missing, and I would like to locate a replacement.

It is a 100-amp capacity panel, and appears to have mostly Bryant breakers. I have disassembled it as much as possible but cannot find any identifying markers or labels. It was installed in our house sometime around 1990.
The load center measures 14 5/8" wide by 25 1/8" high. The missing door/ breaker cover measures approximately 7 1/4" wide by 25" high.

Any assistance in identifying this unit is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[Norcal]

Bryant was the residential/light commercial line of Westinghouse, and was later rebranded as Westinghouse, when all of of the industrial parts of Westinghouse Electric were sold after buying the CBS TV network, Eaton bought the electrical distribution & control div. & was folded into Eaton's, Cutler-Hammer line, they have since dropped the Cutler-Hammer brand in favor of Eaton, the Eaton BR style breaker is the correct replacement for Bryant loadcenters.

Do not think you will be able to buy a replacement door for the panel unless a scrap one is found that can be robbed of parts, and that panel is only suitable as service equipment because of the factory permanently bonded neutral, commenting in this because of the blanked off meter socket.

Edit #2, the ITE/Siemens breakers are not to my knowledge UL classified to be used in BR style panels, Challenger was owned by Westinghouse & may or may not be OK in that panel.

 

[JRC3]

Yep BR breakers. I'd search ebay over time for the cover.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Since the main is a bryant im gonna assume its a bryant.
However that could be wrong as there are several different brands of breaker in that panel.

Once u figure out the brand and model, u should change out the incorrect breakers with the correct ones.

BTW, do u know why a meter main was used? Thats really odd to use a combo panel inside.

Also, what is upstream of this panel? Just a meter? Or a meter and panel?

 

[Marctrees]

By far simplest, cheapest, easiest option is to take measurements, and have a sheet metal shop with a pan brake bend you a cover.

So simple.

Otherwise a goose chase. Marc

 

[kbuhagiar]

Since the main is a bryant im gonna assume its a bryant.
However that could be wrong as there are several different brands of breaker in that panel. Once u figure out the brand and model, u should change out the incorrect breakers with the correct ones.

Why? How are they incorrect? Just curious, as it passed an inspection when we purchased the house a few years ago.

BTW, do u know why a meter main was used? Thats really odd to use a combo panel inside. Also, what is upstream of this panel? Just a meter? Or a meter and panel?

No idea why a main meter was used, it does seems goofy...who knows what they were thinking. Upstream is the utility company meter & panel on the front of the house with two separate main breakers; one feeds the garage, and the other feeds a Siemens 200-amp panel for the main residence.

 

[Norcal]

Breakers are UL listed to be used in the same manufacturers panels, some are UL classified to be used in competitive makes of panels, such as the Eaton CL but you have to have paperwork to prove it, some such as SQ D HOM are not to be used in anything other then Homeline loadcenters.

 

[Rock knocker]

Originally Posted by wyliesdiesels View Post
Since the main is a bryant im gonna assume its a bryant.
However that could be wrong as there are several different brands of breaker in that panel. Once u figure out the brand and model, u should change out the incorrect breakers with the correct ones.

Why? How are they incorrect? Just curious, as it passed an inspection when we purchased the house a few years ago.

Non listed breakers in panels is a common error, and one that is difficult to catch without putting some not-insignificant research into the subject.

This is something a HI is likely to miss.

 

[Rock knocker]

Is that an UL rated sheet metal screw? And is it listed for that panel?

 

[Norcal]

Non listed breakers in panels is a common error, and one that is difficult to catch without putting some not-insignificant research into the subject.

This is something a HI is likely to miss.

HI's miss a lot.

Is that an UL rated sheet metal screw? And is it listed for that panel?

That is a normal holddown screw for Bryant and other BR loadcenters.

 

[Rock knocker]

Really? Wow! Looks like ****.

 

[alfredeneuman]

This is something a HI is likely to miss.

This is especially true in California where Home Inspectors aren't required to be licensed or have any construction experience at all.
All that you need to do is declare yourself a Home Inspector and you are one.

 

[Norcal]

Really? Wow! Looks like ****.

Not inclined to disagree with you but that machine screw is OEM . I have little to no use for BR panels & breakers no matter what they are branded, cheap **** that prefer to call "Zinsco II".

 

[Rock knocker]

Not inclined to disagree with you but that machine screw is OEM . I have little to no use for BR panels & breakers no matter what they are branded, cheap **** that prefer to call "Zinsco II".

It's not that I didn't believe you, it just looks so ad hoc.

 

[JRC3]

BTW, do u know why a meter main was used? Thats really odd to use a combo panel inside.

No idea why a main meter was used, it does seems goofy...who knows what they were thinking. Upstream is the utility company meter & panel on the front of the house with two separate main breakers; one feeds the garage, and the other feeds a Siemens 200-amp panel for the main residence.

More than likely it used to house the meter and was removed when the other meter was installed. The new meter was put in to either to get more service to the house, or to replace aged under or above ground main service lines.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

........No idea why a main meter was used, it does seems goofy...who knows what they were thinking. Upstream is the utility company meter & panel on the front of the house with two separate main breakers; one feeds the garage, and the other feeds a Siemens 200-amp panel for the main residence.

Who inspected the panel?

Hopefully the neutral to ground bonding was removed when it was converted...

 

[mm08822]

might also be interesting to see how they got across the meter socket. Hopefully the socket is completely disconnected and they hit the main cb directly from the feeder.

 

[kbuhagiar]

Who inspected the panel?

When we purchased the home in April of 2014, disclosures indicated that electrical work had been permitted, performed and inspected (by county officials) in the basement/garage area in conjunction with the installation of a new HVAC system. Also, a home inspection performed before we bought the house noted the unusual load panel but only suggested replacing the missing breaker panel door.

After further research, it appears that a previous owner had a part-time business operating in the basement/garage (automotive welding & fabrication) and it is possible that he may have wanted to meter the electrical use to this panel. So, there may have been a meter installed there at one time after all.

Hopefully the neutral to ground bonding was removed when it was converted...

Can you elaborate on this? I am not familiar with electric meter wiring; what would be the implications if the neutral to ground bond were still connected?

Thanks.

 

[Norcal]

The neutral in that type of panel is permanently bonded to the enclosure, it cannot be removed without modifying the panel, they are usable for service entrance only.

 

[ard]

When we purchased the home in April of 2014,

noted the unusual load panel but only suggested replacing the missing breaker panel door.


.

1. I always have issues with purchase transactions conditioned on the inspection and estimates of so called experts... Cars...Homes.. In this case you likely thought "eh, maybe $50-100" right? What if the cover is not available and the 'fix' is $1500 for a new panel?

2. What if that panel is in fact NOT listed for use where it is? If it has a factory bonded neutral, then removing that bond technically violates its UL listing. It may, in fact, nt be possible to use it how it is used. As pointed out above, if it has breakers not listed for this panel, that is a technical issue.

This home inspector may have totally missed these issues.

3. More likely is that panel was used elsewhere and repurposed for that use to save $$$. Maybe it was the original home panel?

4. Last people I trust to ensure electrical work is done properly would be local county inspectors.

I am idly wondering what liability the home inspector has on this stuff?

 

[Stuff]

I am guessing that there is a 3 wire SEU cable feeding this panel. If this was a detached structure a three wire cable feed and this panel could be grandfathered in.

So if this is a basement garage don't worry about getting a new cover but plan on replacing the whole thing.

 

[kbuhagiar]

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to respond to my original inquiry.

At this point I think I will concentrate on the possibility of replacing the entire panel as opposed to just replacing the cover. I will consult with a licensed electrician to evaluate the situation.

If necessary (if deemed unsafe and not up to code), I am prepared to pay to have it done, but if it comes to that hopefully I can do some of the work (as I have done before) and keep the costs down.

 

[sberry]

I will agree that the breakers are or may not be listed but have we seen an actual problem with this? Is the risk compared to flying commercial, riding in a car or getting on a motorcycle?
We certainly see the bonding issue all the time but what was the method to get the power there, cable or metal pipe?

 

[kbuhagiar]

I will agree that the breakers are or may not be listed but have we seen an actual problem with this? Is the risk compared to flying commercial, riding in a car or getting on a motorcycle?
We certainly see the bonding issue all the time but what was the method to get the power there, cable or metal pipe?

The method used to get the power to this panel is cable.

To be clear, I haven't made up my mind to actually replace this panel - yet.

That's why I want to bring in a licensed electrician to evaluate the situation.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

When we purchased the home in April of 2014, disclosures indicated that electrical work had been permitted, performed and inspected (by county officials) in the basement/garage area in conjunction with the installation of a new HVAC system. Also, a home inspection performed before we bought the house noted the unusual load panel but only suggested replacing the missing breaker panel door.

After further research, it appears that a previous owner had a part-time business operating in the basement/garage (automotive welding & fabrication) and it is possible that he may have wanted to meter the electrical use to this panel. So, there may have been a meter installed there at one time after all.



Can you elaborate on this? I am not familiar with electric meter wiring; what would be the implications if the neutral to ground bond were still connected?

Thanks.

I see no one answered this.

The problem u can have is neutral return current flowing on grounded metallic pathways that should have NO current on them. This creates a shock potential.

For detached structures bonded neutral use to be allowed ONLY IF there was no parallel metallic pathways between the 2 structures.

Since this is in what i assume is an attached structure, that whole panel shouldve been changed since the factory bonded neutral is not changeable without violating the U/L listing on it. Some panels have convertable neutral bonds but since this is a meter main, it is meant to be used only as service equipment(bonded neutral) and NOT a load center(isolated neutral).

One thing u need to check and verify is what type of feeder is feeding this panel(3-wire or 4-wire)....

 

[kbuhagiar]

I see no one answered this.

The problem u can have is neutral return current flowing on grounded metallic pathways that should have NO current on them. This creates a shock potential.

For detached structures bonded neutral use to be allowed ONLY IF there was no parallel metallic pathways between the 2 structures.

Since this is in what i assume is an attached structure, that whole panel shouldve been changed since the factory bonded neutral is not changeable without violating the U/L listing on it. Some panels have convertable neutral bonds but since this is a meter main, it is meant to be used only as service equipment(bonded neutral) and NOT a load center(isolated neutral).

One thing u need to check and verify is what type of feeder is feeding this panel(3-wire or 4-wire)....

Thanks for the response. It is an attached structure.

I think it is a 4-wire feeder cable; but I'm not positive, and I won't be able to check for a couple of weeks, as I am away from that location.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thanks for the response. It is an attached structure.

I think it is a 4-wire feeder cable; but I'm not positive, and I won't be able to check for a couple of weeks, as I am away from that location.

If it is 4-wire then they either removed factory permanent bond violating the U/L listing or left the bond in place which is bad.

Post some pics of the panel without the covers on when u can.

 

[sberry]

Feel free to post the breaker info, been trying to prompt it forever it's the reason I keep asking the same question? so far havnt seen it.

 

[sberry]

ok, read it, just like I figured, no actual numbers. I seen the right ones burnt too. Main thing it says is it voids the warranty and I agree it's against listing, that much we know. But is it higher than any others?
Last one I saw was a QO in a QO panel.
While it's against the listing have seen a quite a few Challenger in BR etc, can't recall ever seen a burned one. Not even trying to say it doesn't happen but this is done by the millions, don't see a national alert?

 

[sberry]

But again, this is something you found on the internet, not actual experience?

 

[jim111]

Someone asked about the Hi liabilities in an inspection report, and they are zero. It's in the fine print of every one that I have ever seen