Need Help w/ Load Bearing Wall Issue

[nolimits76]

Sorry guys, I know this isn’t a garage related question but I need some help regardless.

We are remodeling our master bath. The current shower was a pre-fab unit and the bottom cracked. We are ripping that out and doing a tile replacement. Hard to tell from my chicken scratch sketch, but we are slightly enlarging the depth. The length will remain the same (approx 48”) that spans between the 2 existing walls (sink on left and toilet room on right).

As we do this, we would really like to knock down the full height wall currently in place that separates the shower and “my” sink to about 48” +/- high – creating a “pony wall”. On the inside of the shower, tile would run to the top of that wall and then we will have about a 3’ tall piece of glass running the remainder of the height so no water escapes. It seems like a logical way to open up the space and let some light in.

Our contractor started demo today and is telling me that is a load bearing wall. I am at work so I can’t physically crawl in the attic to verify – but the story is my roof has supports landing on that wall.

It just seems odd to me. Not saying it is wrong, I’d just like a second opinion if this seems strange to you also. In my head, the layout and length (about 43”) seems weird to use a load bearing wall.

Thanks in advance for any help or advice you can offer.

 

[chops101]

Without a visual inspection or blueprint, you're just speculating. Anything is possible.

 

[gumbellion]

how old is the house? we just did a big reno and took a wall out

 

[Scott r c]

By load bearing he probably means there is a board coming down from the roof, like when builders don't use premade trusses, and they shoot boards down every which direction to support the roof. If this is the case, he could redirect that load to another wall.

 

[VersionOne]

If that wall is indeed load bearing, you can have your contractor reframe that wall, with a sufficient header spanning the length to properly support the weight above. That way you can still have your glass where you want it, only with a header above it.

 

[little d]

Talk to him about a strong back to carry any load ya might have.

 

[nolimits76]

The house is about 3.5 years old.

I've been in the attic before, and know roof was "stick built" so it doesn't have pre-made trusses. Also, there are boards running from the room down to various points. I believe these support runners are called purlins.

I will ask about the strong backs. I had those on my last house.

Really I'm just looking for a way to accomplish what we desire w/o breaking the bank. Not at the sacrifice of quality or safety of course.

 

[ez-duzit]

Sounds like you are bootlegging this rehab without a permit. Or you have an amateur contractor. This is not something for you and your contractor to figure out over the phone or over the internet. You need a plan before doing the demo. What were you thinking?

 

[Falcon67]

Talk to him about a strong back to carry any load ya might have.

That. Also depends also on which way the rafters run. If they run top to bottom, then I'd run a double 2x6 across the joists and one across the rafters to pick up some little rafter brace load on either side - can't be that much on load one stick.

 

[nolimits76]

Sounds like you are bootlegging this rehab without a permit. Or you have an amateur contractor. This is not something for you and your contractor to figure out over the phone or over the internet. You need a plan before doing the demo. What were you thinking?

Um, sure buddy.

Or maybe it could be because we had a plan and I went to work and the contractor called me to report what he found and stated his opinion rather than proceeding forward w/ a potential mistake.

And then I got thinking about it and said, I disagree. I wonder if some of the smart guys & gals on GJ may have any pointers for me on what to look for and if I am facing a real load bearing wall situation what I can do to still accomplish my goals.

Not once did I say I was dodging a permit, using a ****** contractor or looking to substitute out using a qualified engineer/architect.

But kudos for being an *** monkey and using your infinite internet wisdom to determine the real problem(s) I am facing.

That. Also depends also on which way the rafters run. If they run top to bottom, then I'd run a double 2x6 across the joists and one across the rafters to pick up some little rafter brace load on either side - can't be that much on load one stick.

Thanks Falcon, I appreciate the help! When you say "top to bottom" am I correctly interpreting that you mean longer runs from near the peak of the rafters down to the wall? Makes sense to me as you'd have a "longer load travel".

We do have a family member coming over tomorrow that has extensive framing experience. I am hopeful he will be able to point us in the right direction. I will mention this to him as well.

 

[ez-duzit]

...We do have a family member coming over tomorrow that has extensive framing experience...

As I figured. At least be honest about it. What kind of contractor is this that you need to have a relative help him figure it out?

Unsubscribed.

 

[nolimits76]

As I figured. At least be honest about it. What kind of contractor is this that you need to have a relative help him figure it out?

Unsubscribed.

My contractor works M-F, and uses weekends as makeup days if something causes him to get behind schedule. So far, he is on target and there is no need for weekend work. That being said, our plan is to meet Sunday afternoon to further discuss this issue face-to-face, before they restart work on Monday morning.

The family member is coming over for MY own benefit. To provide a second opinion. Seems logical to lean on someone w/ more experience or knowledge than myself.

 

[nolimits76]

Here are a few pictures of the progress thus far. Basically everything is demolished and removed at this point, pending the wall issue.

The last two are closeups of the wall in question. You will notice on the end there is a 2x6 running the height of the wall. I believe this was done so they would have something to attach the (previous) prefab shower unit to, so essentially I would consider those "blocking" and not extra support.

 

[readhead]

The pictures don't help with the bearing issue. Pics in the attic would be helpful. I'm sure the contractor is trying to be polite at this point knowing you don't trust his judgement.

 

[little d]

Not really a judgement call as it is exploring all options...kinda a not seeing the forest for the trees thing.

Last house I built, had a guy my wife knew drawing up the prints. The guy has been a framing contractor most of his life and had been drawing prints for a while. Anyway, we were having trouble fitting the living room gable and foyer gable together. I stopped by to look at the prints and suggested over-framing the second gable and that's what we did. Sometimes it just takes a fresh set of eyes.

 

[volleyball]

A picture in the attic would be the only way to tell. It normally would not be a bearing wall but it could have been used. Maybe the builder had a bunch of short lumber and used the wall to be a support.
Having a shower contractor not sure of roof framing doesn't mean the guy doesn't know how to do your bathroom. That he stopped and asked is a positive thing in my opinion.
If it is bearing, I would consider leaving the end studs and just remove the middle ones. It will stiffen the pony wall.
On a side note, You or the contractor should put in a lot of blocking so that you or future person could add handrails without demoing. Take a few pictures with distance measurements.

 

[CNGsaves]

OP is on right track to question "load bearing" wall on interior of bathroom of house that's only 3.5 yrs old. I'd bet my $2 that no way that's load bearing wall as houses not built with interior walls first, then ceiling and roof next (unless of course house built like "ultimate shed" in prior GJ classic thread . . ). You generally build the "shell" first, then finish out interior rooms with cosmetic walls.

For the REAL STORY . . OP you just have to get dirty up in attic with bright light and take bunch of pictures. That is only way for sure to know "load bearing wall" answer.

Contractor may be CYA so stopping work is a good thing for both parties. Come to agreement on what is needed, and overbuild where necessary.

+1 that adding blocking is good idea, and PICS to document what's in wall before it's ultimately closed back up.

 

[BD1]

What is behind and in front of the wall in question if that was continued straight through ? IF that is load bearing I would think there should be additional load bearing walls in front and behind.

 

[nolimits76]

Well, our family member flaked on us. But I did get in the attic to try to better understand what was going on. It does appear there is a roof support running down to the wall we want to remove.

Here are a couple of shots from afar. I used red marks for the beam, and green marks for the bathroom wall.

 

[nolimits76]

And a few more shots...

 

[nolimits76]

I modified the last post so the last 3 pictures are in the correct up/down position. Nothing crazy there, outside of trying to get a close up view of the roof support and I didn't have very good position in the attic to get a shot w/o breaking into 3 views like I did.

Would appreciate any additional input or thoughts.

At this point, I think I am going to have my bath contractor pause until we figure a solution to this issue. We've talked about doing some alternate install methods, but I think we are pretty decided we want that wall down if any reasonable way possible.

 

[CNGsaves]

Will wait for guru like Zeke to chime in . . .but not looking very promising. That's a mighty strange setup in attic . . quasi A frame of sorts ??

It's good decision to WAIT and research options.

Any way to re-design your ideas for bathroom that could include some partial dropped ceiling to hide horizontal beam supported on each end with posts??

Or maybe a decorative wrap around a single post . . ie the column look ??

Time to start thinking outside the box. Good luck.

 

[volleyball]

That post goes up to what looks like a joist going across to the other side. Is there a skylight or at least framing for a skylight there?
I think your contractor was right to stop.

 

[bczygan]

That attic framing is a mess. I've never seen so many braces used to support rafters that shouldn't have needed support if they had been properly sized. Looks like it was designed by the carpenter on the job. And when the rafters seemed inadequate, he just added braces here and there to compensate.

Better yet, a proper system of trusses and engineered framing could have given you an attic you could actually use for storage. Seems to be a lot of volume up there.

Back to your problem.

It's simple.

You need a beam in the attic to pick up the point load of that brace and transfer it to two adjacent bearing points. Size depends on the load and span.

No big deal.

 

[nolimits76]

Will wait for guru like Zeke to chime in . . .but not looking very promising. That's a mighty strange setup in attic . . quasi A frame of sorts ??

It's good decision to WAIT and research options.

Any way to re-design your ideas for bathroom that could include some partial dropped ceiling to hide horizontal beam supported on each end with posts??

Or maybe a decorative wrap around a single post . . ie the column look ??

Time to start thinking outside the box. Good luck.

Not saying it's not strange, but the majority of bracing in attics of other houses are similar. But about 99.9% of the houses going up are "stick built" roofs as opposed to pre-engineered/built roof trusses.

The bath contractor has put a few alternate ideas on the table to deal w/ the wall not being moved, but we haven't found one we love yet. Our first choice is to remove that wall, assuming it can be done w/o too much expense (assuming some beams/addt'l bracing is required to do so).

That post goes up to what looks like a joist going across to the other side. Is there a skylight or at least framing for a skylight there?
I think your contractor was right to stop.

No skylights.

That attic framing is a mess. I've never seen so many braces used to support rafters that shouldn't have needed support if they had been properly sized. Looks like it was designed by the carpenter on the job. And when the rafters seemed inadequate, he just added braces here and there to compensate.

Better yet, a proper system of trusses and engineered framing could have given you an attic you could actually use for storage. Seems to be a lot of volume up there.

Back to your problem.

It's simple.

You need a beam in the attic to pick up the point load of that brace and transfer it to two adjacent bearing points. Size depends on the load and span.

No big deal.

Thanks for the additional comments, they are much appreciated!

I agree about the framing in the attic. That being said, most construction I’ve seen going on is very similar (unless there is an upstairs as part of the final design). Judging from nearby new construction, roofing systems are stick built on-site. We bought pre-existing, so I can’t say for sure, but I would assume the same is true of our house.

I spoke w/ my bath contractor this morning and put him on formal hold, until we can get someone in to properly analyze the beam size needed to span the bathroom and get a quote to do the additional work.

Roughly speaking I would assume we need a beam somewhere in the 8’-10’ range as that is the distance from the back of the shower to the next wall. That is based on width from on the slab and not in the attic. If there are additional interference's upstairs that might change a little.

I know my bath contractor took a few bad comments in the beginning by a select few, but I am glad he paused and contacted me w/ the issue vs plowing on.

 

[nolimits76]

By the way, here are a few pictures of the outside roof.

Someone mentioned earlier there is quite a bit of room in the attic, and that is true. There is actually a 2-story version of my house available by the builder.

I have toyed w/ the idea of eventually adding an upstairs living space. I realize those supports would have to be dealt with and my heater unit and ducting would need re-worked as well.

Based on all the "detailed" information seen thus far, would that be too expensive an option to consider to be realistic?

 

[volleyball]

With the exterior picture, the roof framing makes more sense. It looks like they use the partition interior walls as load bearing roof bracing.
If I am properly oriented, I would think a new brace to the wall on the other side of the shower in the back corner would suffice.
It looks like they went with 2x4 and middle braces instead of 2x6 or 8's.
If you are thinking adding a second floor with better engineered roof trusses, I think it would be a good idea.

 

[nolimits76]

With the exterior picture, the roof framing makes more sense. It looks like they use the partition interior walls as load bearing roof bracing.

If I am properly oriented, I would think a new brace to the wall on the other side of the shower in the back corner would suffice.
It looks like they went with 2x4 and middle braces instead of 2x6 or 8's.
If you are thinking adding a second floor with better engineered roof trusses, I think it would be a good idea.

I appreciate the additional comments. It helps provide some warm fuzzies, as the bath contractor had someone come out for a professional opinion and it was the same conclusion --just move the roof support a few feet over so it lands on the “back” wall of the shower.

It seems like a very logical solution as it’s a very short distance and the wall it will land on is a main wall that separates the master suite from the rest of the house and unlikely it would need to be altered.

Hopefully by the time I get home, I will be able to share some updated pictures.

Also, kudos to whoever mentioned adding some extra blocking for handrails in the future. My bath contractor was happy to do that for us. Excellent idea. Can’t believe I almost missed that!

 

[volleyball]

You are welcome for that too. I don't need the handrails now but am retrofitting everything now for a future where I will be limited some how.
I play with other players who are fine one week and are out for a long time the next.
I would do it even if I were 20. Never know when you will get injured or find a cougar.

 

[Falcon67]

I'm not too sure what I'd do with that. The basic deal would be to be to lay a brace across several joists to pick up that point load. If possible. That's some sloppy looking bracing.

 

[nolimits76]

Not 100%, but....

 

[stikman56]

Does the wall run the same way as the ridge of the roof? If so, it's load bearing.

 

[CNGsaves]

While we're talking about the unusual roof / attic build on your house, how would that haphazard bracing hold up to strong winds or tornado?? Is the upper section attached to walls with hurricane straps ??

I'd be worried that wind/storm/tornado would knock out that window in attic and **** the entire roof right off the house.

Would recommend beefing up stress points while you're working up there. Transforming that attic area to useable space might provide "opportunity" to add some real strength up there with beams, strapping, etc. This won't be cheap because it's after-the-fact.

 

[volleyball]

To make the roof braced, you have to tie it to the ground. If you strap the roof to the walls only, you lose more than just the roof.
The roof structure is not up to code for living area so a complete roof tearoff where living space will be will be needed. Someone could beef it up but it will be cheaper to start over.
If someone wanted to open up the first floor, it will be very difficult as it seems most walls are load bearing.

 

[bczygan]

Boy, different framers in different areas sure do things differently.

It looks like that roof style and framing method is a vernacular for your area. It is a method that makes use of the smallest lumber for the longest spans. It is kind of like the attic framing my grandfather used when he (A long time contractor and builder) built his 2 flat house in Detroit. The method was common. It used steep pitched roofs and the old 2x4 rafters that were actually 2x4. The roof sheathing was boards but with spaces between them (Skip sheathing). This made a light roof that spanned great distance but had very low load bearing capacity. The attic wasn't used for anything but light storage. It worked, but I doubt it would meet current practice.

Now, for your idea about finishing that attic space. Here's what you do.

First, you need adequate floor framing. Check the existing ceiling joists to see if the size and spacing and spans between supports are adequate for floor loads. Add intermediate joists as required. Add beams as needed to cut spans where required. Beams can be in the same plane as the existing joists so nothing projects below the ceiling in most cases.

Then install floor sheathing that is adequate for the spans between joists and as required for the new floor loads.

Next look at the roof structure. Since you will be adding insulation and drywall loads to the structure you will need to cut the spans of those rafters. Beams and load bearing walls, carefully placed can accomplish this. They will need to be carefully planned so loads are transferred down through the first floor and into the basement. Those individual braces can be removed and continuous low walls framed that bear on the floor joists and support the rafters where the headroom is too low for living space. Again, calculations will need to be done to make sure the floor joists can handle the additional loads. The low space behind these walls at the eaves, can be unfinished attic storage space.

There is absolutely no need to remove the existing roof to finish this space, but it is an opportunity to open it up for windows and dormers to serve the new upstairs spaces. You will lose some space for the existing HVAC as well as a stair. You will also lose first floor footage for the stair. You have to decide if it is worth the cost and effort.

Understand?

Bill

BTW, I wonder how these kind of structures do in tornado alley. Perhaps the reasoning is that a tornado would tear up any structure, so why try to reinforce the whole building. Just provide a protected place for people to shelter.

 

[6768rogues]

Hold my beer while I rip this wall out!
You didn't provide enough information to make a recommendation. Anything can be done, it is only a function of money.

 

[nolimits76]

Another quick update of the bathroom progress.

 

[nolimits76]

Lots of good info in here, thank you for taking the time to respond.

Boy, different framers in different areas sure do things differently.

It looks like that roof style and framing method is a vernacular for your area. It is a method that makes use of the smallest lumber for the longest spans. It is kind of like the attic framing my grandfather used when he (A long time contractor and builder) built his 2 flat house in Detroit. The method was common. It used steep pitched roofs and the old 2x4 rafters that were actually 2x4. The roof sheathing was boards but with spaces between them (Skip sheathing). This made a light roof that spanned great distance but had very low load bearing capacity. The attic wasn't used for anything but light storage. It worked, but I doubt it would meet current practice.

I agree about what I am seeing is common for my area. To provide a little more clarity, the bulk of rafters are 2x6 with some going larger (2x8 and 2x10) in various locations. Maybe that is still undersized to what others frequently see/use in their areas -- but I didn't see any 2x4's anywhere.

Also, the shots I provided are only about 10-12' away from the exterior wall. As you get more towards the center of the house, it changes. I have to get in the attic to put the empty Christmas boxes back up so I will try to snap a few more shots this weekend.

Now, for your idea about finishing that attic space. Here's what you do.

First, you need adequate floor framing. Check the existing ceiling joists to see if the size and spacing and spans between supports are adequate for floor loads. Add intermediate joists as required. Add beams as needed to cut spans where required. Beams can be in the same plane as the existing joists so nothing projects below the ceiling in most cases.

Then install floor sheathing that is adequate for the spans between joists and as required for the new floor loads.

Next look at the roof structure. Since you will be adding insulation and drywall loads to the structure you will need to cut the spans of those rafters. Beams and load bearing walls, carefully placed can accomplish this. They will need to be carefully planned so loads are transferred down through the first floor and into the basement. Those individual braces can be removed and continuous low walls framed that bear on the floor joists and support the rafters where the headroom is too low for living space. Again, calculations will need to be done to make sure the floor joists can handle the additional loads. The low space behind these walls at the eaves, can be unfinished attic storage space.

All this seems logical, but something I will hire a local structural engineer to calculate and design for me.

Another consideration that isn't seen here is my first floor is very open. Walking on various ceiling joists I can attest there is a variety of joist sizes, the larger being actual wood i-joists. And not that I was paying super close attention but I think most the others were 2x12 with a few short runs being 2x10's.

There is absolutely no need to remove the existing roof to finish this space, but it is an opportunity to open it up for windows and dormers to serve the new upstairs spaces. You will lose some space for the existing HVAC as well as a stair. You will also lose first floor footage for the stair. You have to decide if it is worth the cost and effort.

Glad to hear I don't have to rip my roof off and start over, lol. If that would be the case I'd just buy or build a different house that has the space requirements I need.

The upstairs space would likely be used as a theater & game room area. The game room portion would likely require some upgrades to the supports as I would want to place a pool table in the room. For the sake of doing so I might build out an extra bedroom or two as well, along with a bath.

And I know for sure the HVAC would have to be re-considered. Right now it's right in the way.

In all honesty, at this point we are just thinking about the upstairs expansion and it would obviously need to pass a cost-benefit comparison before we would proceed. No need of just ******* money away. There are too many other housing choices in our area to do that.

Understand?

Bill

BTW, I wonder how these kind of structures do in tornado alley. Perhaps the reasoning is that a tornado would tear up any structure, so why try to reinforce the whole building. Just provide a protected place for people to shelter.

Being in Oklahoma we see our fair share of tornadoes. Lots of above ground safe rooms and in ground fraidy holes in the area. Latest trend is to have an in ground unit put in the garage during construction. I can't speak for other people, but the general consensus I have gathered is that people here don't really think there house will make it w/ "hurricane straps" but rather the primal instinct is to take cover in a storm shelter and worry about life survival.

Growing up, I experienced an F4. We got lucky. Hit neighbors on each side of us but skipped our house. It was a pretty nasty event. The National Guard was called in and access was restricted and monitored while the town was rebuilt.

 

[little d]

Thats starting to look nice, glad to see ya got it sorted and are moving ahead.

 

[volleyball]

Did you take pics of the bracing? Not for us but for yourself? Tough to tap on tile looking for studs.

The idea of a roof tearoff sounds more dramatic than it is. Depending on the design, a crew can rip off and in a couple of days you have a new roof designed for your needs instead of spending twice the time and as much money or more and still have to compromise. If your roof is due for replacement, it makes more sense. Maybe only half should be removed to do what you want.
I've done enough retrofitting to know saving something bad is foolish.
Do the windows go to the space you want to develop?