Need help wiring a welder

[BL50]

Thanks again for your help with my compressor ... now it's on to the welder.

I have a Lincoln AC-225 arc welder. The INPUT sticker reads: 1 Phase, 60 Hz, 230 volts, 50 Amps. The OUTPUT sticker reads: 225 Amps max at 25 arc volts, 79 volts max, input duty cycle 20%. It has a 50 amp plug on it.

I only use this welder once in awhile for simple repairs. Before I built my new garage I used to run a long, heavy extension cord to my dryer recepticle in the basement. The dryer is wired to a 30 amp double breaker with 10-gauge wire and when I plugged my welder into it, it always worked fine.

My question is if I wire the welder to my new breaker box can I use 10-gauge wire with a 30 amp double breaker or do I really have to upgrade it to 8-gauge wire with a 50 amp double breaker?

Thanks again in advance.

Brian

 

[Steevo]

If you use 10ga wire, do not use anything higher than a 30A breaker with it. The breaker is sized to protect the wire at its highest rated load.
If your AC225 works at the settings you use without tripping a 30A breaker, then go for it.
The 50A requirement is for that welder at it's maximum load, cranked up to 225 and under load for some period of time.
Some day, you may stick a fat rod in that clamp, bear down on a thick piece of steel, and pop that 30A breaker.

 

[sberry]

A 10 romex and a 50A breaker is a legal circuit for this machine. The real world concern with this is that if this wire is concealed, someone assumes, in the future that this is a true 50A circuit and its not, not suitable for a pottery kiln, oven, something that might over load the wire in time. As a circuit dedicated to this welder a 10 wire and 50A breaker is fine, ESPECIALLY since the guy using the thing hasn't tripped a 30? Even with small electrodes the thing draws near 40A.
We got real electricians here can better explain this than I, and there are technical differences in wire etc, coatings, even methods but lets keep this to basic concept first. It comes with 12 cord, you using a 10 to feed it, this is what protects the wire from overheat, the applied load. same with a light fixture, you put a cheater in a lamp socket and hook electric heater on you got problems but at 100 watts not an issue, same with common extension cords, the operator is sposed to have enough sense to try not to overload, at least in general.
The welder has spikes in current draw, sustained load that can be applied for X limited time, nice to have breaker large enough to make spikes be an issue but is limited to provide timely short circuit interruption, over heating load limited by the machine, wire heavy enough to fault the breaker in the event this thing shorts out.

 

[Alchymist]

#10 wire on a 50 amp breaker is legal for a welder, the receptacle should be prominently marked "FOR WELDING USE ONLY" to preclude heavy loads being plugged in. Just like the stickers that are supposed to be placed on all downstream GFCI protected outlets. Supposed to be there, often not.

 

[sberry]

A 10 romex and a 50A breaker is a legal circuit for this machine. The real world concern with this is that if this wire is concealed, someone assumes, in the future that this is a true 50A circuit and its not, not suitable for a pottery kiln, oven, something that might over load the wire in time. As a circuit dedicated to this welder a 10 wire and 50A breaker is fine, ESPECIALLY since the guy using the4 thing hasnt tripped a 30? Even with small electrodes the thing draws near 40A.
We got real electricians here can better explain this than I, and there are technical differences in wire etc, coatings, even methods but lets keep this to basic concept first. It comes with 12 cord, you using a 10 to feed it, this is what protects the wire from overheat, the applied load. same with a light fixture, you put a cheater in a lamp socket and hook electric heater on you got problems but at 100 watts not an issue, same with common extension cords, the operator is sposed to have enough sense to try not to overload, at least in general.
The welder has spikes in current draw, sustained load that can be applied for X limited time, nice to have breaker large enough to make spikes be an issue but is limited to provide timely short circuit interuption, over heating load limited by the machine, wire heavy enough to fault the breaker in the event this thing shorts out.

 

[sberry]

I usually mark them too, usually use a metal box, cover mounted and writr in marker on it, wire size and breaker number.

 

[sberry]

when this stuff came to the market, the 50's, hundreds of thousands of setups, garages, farm buildings 60A service fuse panels, a tap off under the service mains with lugs and another set of fuses labeled range, these could be tailored, often a 10 wire cable to a 50A welder recept and often people hooked air comp to the lugs usually 10 wire to feed a disconnect for it. 4, sometimes 6 fuses for 110 circuits.

 

[sberry]

We get a lot of code quoting and rightly so, there are a couple guys here that work well on how it works, I can recall thinking and trying to read the code book years ago, none of it made any sense till at some point I got the general idea of how it all worked. I really don't understand electricity, really don't care all that much, my mind is easily overwhelmed and for the purpose of this forum most guys are probably in the same boat, they just want to use it safely.
Only reason I know any of this, had a passing interest but had the need due to my own gobs of equipment needed to be able to do installs at will, lots of possible people come in contact with my work, got to be safe. adequate and convenient.

 

[sberry]

No body told me I didnt understand and work with me until I did. I finally studied code on the internet, bought a book and followed the threads of interest especially pertaining to the nature of my work. Pretty much daily for a year. Actually went back and fix a lot of my own schemes from when I was a kid and then some. I still got a handfull of violations to go, I knock one off on occasion or add. Most are minor or not really used, need to install a couple gfci would be suffecient.

 

[BL50]

Guess I'll just do it right and use #6 with a 50-amp breaker. Thanks guys.

 

[gatchel]

Guess I'll just do it right and use #6 with a 50-amp breaker. Thanks guys.

Better safe than sorry.

 

[Highbeam]

Plus you'll need the 50 amp plug to match your welder. A 30 amp plug won't be the right pattern. It may be legal but using a 50 amp breaker, a 50 amp receptacle, and then burying 10 gauge wire in the wall just gives me the creeps.

Do the math, 25 arc volts times 225 amps is a long long ways from a 50 amp circuit at 220 volts. I made a pigtail from my 5500 watt genset's 30 amp twistlock plug to the AC225's 50 amp inlet plug and welded plenty of things in the field. Mostly build up 7018 on dozer grousers.

A proper 50 amp circuit with thick wire always seemed to provide a more stable arc than that genset.

 

[BL50]

A proper 50 amp circuit with thick wire always seemed to provide a more stable arc than that genset.

Done ... thanks again!

 

[Norcal]

I have not checked the code on the 10 AWG on a 50A breaker, there are other places where that would be allowed if certain conditions are met, but 10 AWG on a 50A receptacle ain't kosher, hard wire it & fine but a "Sharpie Disclaimer" does not make it good.

 

[Alchymist]

I have not checked the code on the 10 AWG on a 50A breaker, there are other places where that would be allowed if certain conditions are met, but 10 AWG on a 50A receptacle ain't kosher, hard wire it & fine but a "Sharpie Disclaimer" does not make it good.

Didn't say it was "best", just that it's "legal".

 

[Norcal]

Didn't say it was "best", just that it's "legal".

What I am saying is a Sharpie disclaimer does not make it legal, a receptacle needs to be wired within it's rating, & 10 AWG on a 50A overcurrent device is not within it's rating, hard wire it w/ a disco, or wire it w/ the proper wire size, there is nothing in the NEC alllowing a disclaimer.

 

[hh76]

Welders have a special article(630) in the code. Based on the duty cycle of the welder, you can derate the rated input of the welder, for a 20% duty cycle, the derated ampacity of the wires for your welder would only need to be 22.5a. You can use #10 on a 50a breaker because they know that with a 20% duty cycle, you will never be able to run it at full power for long enough to melt the wire.

That being said, if you can use #8, why not do it and never have to worry about anyone plugging somethin else in?

 

[Aceman]

What I am saying is a Sharpie disclaimer does not make it legal, a receptacle needs to be wired within it's rating, & 10 AWG on a 50A overcurrent device is not within it's rating, hard wire it w/ a disco, or wire it w/ the proper wire size, there is nothing in the NEC alllowing a disclaimer.

Post up some code articles and make me a believer!

Right now a 50 amp breaker with 10's feeding a SINGLE 50 amp welder recep looks legal to me. I haven't see anything even mentioning hardwiring?

 

[tdkkart]

#10 wire on a 50 amp breaker is legal for a welder, the receptacle should be prominently marked "FOR WELDING USE ONLY" to preclude heavy loads being plugged in. Just like the stickers that are supposed to be placed on all downstream GFCI protected outlets. Supposed to be there, often not.

I'm pretty sure that actually labeling it as "welder use only" probably opens it up to worse problems. The average public "knows" that a welder draws a **** load of power.
So therefore, "if it handles a welder it'll surely handle my pottery kiln, powdercoat oven, giant air compressor etc........."

"Does anyone smell smoke??"

 

[sberry]

We could put it this way, running this machine from a 10 romex isn't unsafe. Its done all the time. Certainly fine for light occasional use. These are circuits that tend to be unused on more days than they are used, probably spend 99'9 % of their life off, don't matter what size the wire is,,, ha

 

[TAftw]

I have the same welder and same questions. I'm actually going to meet a guy on CL to pick up some 10/3 Romex, but am now thinking against it. I think I might just bite the bullet and get the 8/3.

 

[ghostrider713]

There are several members advice that is not correct per the NEC. You can not use #10 NM, NMC, or NMS wiring with 50 amp overcurrent protection. Sections 334.80, Table 310.15(B)(16), and 240.(D)(7). The maximum allowable overcurrent is 30 amps.

 

[sberry]

I need glasses here and been a long time since I read a code book but I believe there is listed exceptions. As a practical matter, I am sure there have been problems mostly I would say at the terminations with the device, usually over time but I have been in an industry where these machines are widely used, never never personally seen or even by reliable hearsay that there was ever a problem with a 10 romex feeding a buzzer and I have seen some stupid ****.

 

[Alchymist]

There are several members advice that is not correct per the NEC. You can not use #10 NM, NMC, or NMS wiring with 50 amp overcurrent protection. Sections 334.80, Table 310.15(B)(16), and 240.(D)(7). The maximum allowable overcurrent is 30 amps.

Actually there is an exception for just this very thing......#10 on a 50 amp breaker is allowable.

 

[sberry]

I have the same welder and same questions. I'm actually going to meet a guy on CL to pick up some 10/3 Romex, but am now thinking against it. I think I might just bite the bullet and get the 8/3.

You need 2 conductors and a ground, if I had to buy a piece of wire especially if it was short the cost difference in 8 is minimal anyway, it is better, no way around it, if this was a heavy farm shop where a machine might be ran way past its duty cycle 8 wouoldnt hurt a thing. For common home/hobby garage you will never know the difference. Heck one time back in the day weld up a whole fricken tanker truck in the yard and line dump truck with AC buzzer, 6011 and 7014. We set the welder under an old semi out of the weather in the shade and ran 10 ft of romex to a power pole.
I look at my buds that got hobby garages, had 10# of welding rod 5 yrs ago.