Need help with basement wash machine drain install

[NC-Shaun]

The home I am renovating has a washing machine drain that is ran into the basement floor drains, running grey water out into the yard behind my shop.

I need to run this properly into the sewage drain, and have access to the drains however they are about 6ft above the base of the washing machine. So my questions are...

1. Can the washing machine pump water out to the ceiling height of my basement (approx 6ft above washer)

2. If that is possible, how do I stop any water from the bath tub from back filling the washer drain? Can I use a check valve ran vertically elbowed to a straight pipe horizontally mounted on floor joists with a few inches of drop?

I will take pictures and post them up shortyly.

 

[Kevin54]

You'll have to put a check valve in the drain line.

 

[dclassical]

I believe they make a utility sink with a pump for the drain that comes on when water is detected. You can then discharge the washing machine into the utility sink and tie its drain to the main drain with a check valve. A friend of mine sent me this a few weeks ago but I cannot find the link now.

 

[dragonballz]

Funny... There was a "This Old House" episode just this past week on this same problem.

They used a slop sink that had a built in pump. The washer water dumped directly into the sink and the pump pumped the water up to the drain pipe level.

 

[LR95S07]

It was the 'Ask This Old House' episode from this past weekend.

Pretty cool solution to the situation.....

 

[rlitman]

1) Can a washing machine drain pump pump water up 6'
Yes, but 6' may be a problem depending on your ceiling height (see below).

2) How do you stop water from draining back into it
You need a trap.

You can't just tee into your drain. You need to have a trap that drains into your sewer, and above that trap, a vertical length of pipe that feeds the trap, that your drain hose ejects into. Washing machine drain pumps move water pretty quickly, so if you don't want that trap overflowing, you must either make that pipe pretty tall (I'd suggest at least 1 foot), or use a large trap (I'd suggest a 2" PVC trap; choose one easy to clean out), or better yet, both.

If you cannot fit the trap and a minimum 1' stem into it into your sewer, then that 6' height may be an issue for you (and it becomes time to get creative).

You also need proper venting of the sewer line to accept that rush of water through the trap.

A check valve on the drain hose will prevent the water remaining in the hose from spilling back into the washing machine when the pump stops. It's only a couple of cups though, so I'd say to skip this part (check valves in washing machine drains would also be very prone to clogging and failure).

 

[NC-Shaun]

Thanks for the great info guys! I will take some measurements and some pictures of the current layout and post em up here.

I think I can get about 6 inches of drop on the vertical pipe heading to the sewage drain, adding a trap will not be an issue. Thinking about it now, should I attach the check valve directly in between the washing machine drain hose, to the PVC (clamp style check valve) then the vertical run with 6 inches of drop, to the trap, to the main drain pipe?

I will search for a link to that episode of this old house, but prefer to just do the plumbing to keep it simple.

 

[NC-Shaun]

It will not be an issue with keeping it all 2 inch, including the trap and check valve. I may only be able to get 8 inches of drop max due to ceiling height and point of entry into the main drain.

Is that OK?

 

[matt_i]

I think you are asking an awful lot of the washing machine to pump against 6ft head and also crack open the check valve's seat.

I would get a separate lift pump. My parents have one in their house, as above it also drains the wash sink next to the washing machine.

 

[NC-Shaun]

I think you are asking an awful lot of the washing machine to pump against 6ft head and also crack open the check valve's seat.

I would get a separate lift pump. My parents have one in their house, as above it also drains the wash sink next to the washing machine.

Thats kinda what I am afraid of. Once I post actual measurements and drop I can achieve, then maybe this will allow the most accurate input for the application.

 

[NC-Shaun]

I found the episode you all mentioned. This looks like it will work for me, as it will provide a place for me to get the mud off my off road clothes before they go into the washing machine.

Gonna look into the sink with pump now.....

 

[CJ7VFR]

It will not be an issue with keeping it all 2 inch, including the trap and check valve. I may only be able to get 8 inches of drop max due to ceiling height and point of entry into the main drain.

Is that OK?

If you only have 8 inches of height for the pipe that the washing machine will drain into, then maybe you can do what I did, and increase the size of the pipe with a "Y" connection to the trap.

I had a similar issue as you, and the general rule of thumb for a washing machine drain pipe, or stand pipe, as it is called, should be 36 inches before it goes into the trap if you are going with a 2 inch diameter pipe.

I only had about 16 inches due to where the trap was located coming out of my basement wall. So I installed a 3 inch to 2 inch "Y" onto a short section of 2 inch pipe that went into the trap, and then put a 16 inch long piece of 3 inch pipe coming up out of the "Y" for the washing machine drain hose to go into.

A 3 inch diameter pipe has approximately twice the area of a 2 inch diameter pipe. It is NOT just 50 percent more. Do the math and you will see. So the section of 3 inch pipe that I have that is 16 inches long has the same volume as a 36 inch long piece of 2 inch pipe.

You might have to go with a short piece of 4 inch pipe with a "Y" into the 2 inch trap. Do the math and you'll figure it out.

Good luck! You'll figure it out and be washin' clothes in no time!!

Jim

 

[APEowner]

There's no standard for how high a washing machine can pump. Some can do 6', some can't. You'll need to look IP the specs on your machine.

 

[dragonballz]

I found the episode you all mentioned. This looks like it will work for me, as it will provide a place for me to get the mud off my off road clothes before they go into the washing machine.

Gonna look into the sink with pump now.....

[emoji106]

 

[CJ7VFR]

There's no standard for how high a washing machine can pump. Some can do 6', some can't. You'll need to look IP the specs on your machine.

This is 100 percent correct!!!!!

My washing machine specs out that the top of the discharge hose should not be more than 60 inches (5 feet) above where the hose comes out of the back of the machine.

That was actually the main reason why I had to make my stand pipe shorter and use a larger capacity pipe to make up the difference in volume.

Jim

 

[exranger06]

FWIW my washing machine drain hose hooks directly onto the trap, with no drop at all. I've never had a problem with the trap overflowing.

 

[bzinsky]

I have 3 coin operated washers, but residential sized, pumping 7 feet up, no problems at all.

Black hose is drain hose, runs about 15 ft horizontal in 1.5 inch pipe. 1.5" pipe is then shoved into 2" pipe to allow for ventilation

 

[rlitman]

This is 100 percent correct!!!!!

My washing machine specs out that the top of the discharge hose should not be more than 60 inches (5 feet) above where the hose comes out of the back of the machine.

That was actually the main reason why I had to make my stand pipe shorter and use a larger capacity pipe to make up the difference in volume.

Jim

Yes, but the hose doesn't leave the machine at the floor level.
Most washing machines today come with a drain hose, and they're usually around 5' long.

Most of those drain hoses have a hook at the end designed to connect to your drain pipe.

If your machine's hose can hook onto your drain without adding any extension tubing, I would bet you'll be fine. Based on where the hose leaves the machine, and how long it is, you will generally be able to reach a drain at close to a reasonable ceiling height.

The manufacturer expects the machine to be in a basement, and for the drain to be as high as the ceiling. If you need to pump up to the first floor, then yeah, I wouldn't suggest counting on the built-in pump to handle it.

 

[rlitman]

FWIW my washing machine drain hose hooks directly onto the trap, with no drop at all. I've never had a problem with the trap overflowing.

Yes, this can work. It just depends on how fast the trap drains.

At my inlaws, they used to have a steel 1 1/2" P trap with a 12" tail draining into a 4" cast iron drain pipe (why they bushed this down to 1 1/2" is beyond me, but I guess the builder had extra kitchen sink parts). They kept a bucket hanging from the trap and would catch a little overflow with each load. Rust and crud had made that 1 1/2" trap more like 3/4" over time.

I pulled the ****** from the cast iron, and replaced it with a 2" PVC trap and about a 16" drop. Never had an issue again, and I agree that not much of a drop is needed if you can use a 2" trap. These should have no issue flowing faster than a washing machine, so long as they're not clogged up with hair. And that shouldn't be an issue if the trap's interior is smooth, as you'd get with PVC.

You do need at least a couple of inches above the trap though, because a trap will generally fill with water right to the rim, so without some drop, you'll get splashing.

Anyway, you can always hang an empty bucket from the trap with a battery powered flood alarm, and you'll be notified if there is any overflow.

 

[CJ7VFR]

Yes, but the hose doesn't leave the machine at the floor level.
Most washing machines today come with a drain hose, and they're usually around 5' long.

Most of those drain hoses have a hook at the end designed to connect to your drain pipe.

If your machine's hose can hook onto your drain without adding any extension tubing, I would bet you'll be fine. Based on where the hose leaves the machine, and how long it is, you will generally be able to reach a drain at close to a reasonable ceiling height....

The owners manual that came with my washing machine has a diagram of the back of the machine showing a dimension of 36" Min to 60" Max from where the discharge hose comes out of the machine to the "J" bend at the top of the hose.

I guess with the 36 inch dimension they want to make sure the top of the discharge hose is above the height of the maximum fill of the washing machine tub so it will drain properly and not syphon back into the wash tub.

The dimensions from the floor are not shown, and are not always the case because the owners manual states because some washing machines are placed on top of some type of raised platform, it is the total rise of the actual pipe that the pump needs to meet to empty the tub, and not how high the end of the hose needs to be off the floor.

My machine is on a 6 inch high platform, so the height from the floor does not come into play, as the owners manual says can be the case sometimes.

In my case, the top of my standpipe is about 72 inches off of the actual floor, but it is exactly 60 inches from the discharge port on the back of the machine when you factor in the 6 inch platform, and about another 6 inches from where the discharge port is from the bottom of the washing machine.

Jim

 

[CJ7VFR]

Yes, this can work. It just depends on how fast the trap drains....

When I first moved into my house 6 years ago, there was actually NO trap for my washing machine!

There was just a piece of 2 inch diameter PVC pipe with an elbow sticking out of the wall and the discharge hose was placed into this elbow with what appeared to be about an entire roll of blue painters tape holding it on.

The tape was also there to keep the smell out!!

My inspector found that, but I said it was ok, and that I would fix it. I figured it would be better if I did it than to have the original homeowner, who made that concoction up in the first place, try to "fix it" with some other type of rigged up contraption!

Jim

 

[exranger06]

When I first moved into my house 6 years ago, there was actually NO trap for my washing machine!

There was just a piece of 2 inch diameter PVC pipe with an elbow sticking out of the wall and the discharge hose was placed into this elbow with what appeared to be about an entire roll of blue painters tape holding it on.

The tape was also there to keep the smell out!!

My inspector found that, but I said it was ok, and that I would fix it. I figured it would be better if I did it than to have the original homeowner, who made that concoction up in the first place, try to "fix it" with some other type of rigged up contraption!

Jim

Eww. Did the inside of the washing machine smell like a sewer?

 

[NC-Shaun]

I just bought the new washing machine, I am going to pull the manual and take pics now.

Thanks for the great info, you guys are always so helpful!

 

[NC-Shaun]

 

[NC-Shaun]

OK, so it looks good to me. The washer specs say I can pump up to 96 inches, and I am only at 69 1/2 inches to center of the current drain pipe I have available coming from the bathtub. (I just installed that piping,and trap for the tub) You can see where I booted it to the original copper pipe.

So, I have about 5 inches of drop I can achieve while still staying under the floor joists. Is that enough?

I would install the trap closest to where I am gonna T into the bath tub drain, It is however only 1 1/2 inch PVC. Is that large enough?

Then run a 1 1/2 inch run from the trap, across the ceiling while maintaining the angle to get my drop, Then I will drill thru the top plate above the block foundation to get thru the wall to the washing machine location.

With having the ability to achieve 5 inches of drop, do I need a check valve still? If so where is the best spot for that?

 

[rlitman]

Huh? No. You put the trap near the open end of the pipe. Lose that elbow, replace it with a DWV wye (it's like a tee, but it is directional), send the 1 1/2" pipe across as far as you need (through the wall so it would seem), but a trap on the end, then go up. I wouldn't worry about staying beneath the floor joists. You can go between them. Just leave enough space at the top for the J on the hose end to still fit.

 

[NC-Shaun]

Huh? No. You put the trap near the open end of the pipe. Lose that elbow, replace it with a DWV wye (it's like a tee, but it is directional), send the 1 1/2" pipe across as far as you need (through the wall so it would seem), but a trap on the end, then go up. I wouldn't worry about staying beneath the floor joists. You can go between them. Just leave enough space at the top for the J on the hose end to still fit.

Lose the T, use a directional Y, Trap nearest to end as possible, run a short run up once thru the wall for the washer J hose. Gotcha.

Thank You

 

[jhelrey]

They just had this very same issue on Ask This Old House about 3 weeks ago. They utilized a utility sink with a built in pump for the lift.

 

[CNGsaves]

Funny... There was a "This Old House" episode just this past week on this same problem.

They used a slop sink that had a built in pump. The washer water dumped directly into the sink and the pump pumped the water up to the drain pipe level.

^ ^ ^ This. I watched it too and said . . . . damn I want to do that some day !!

The pump was plenty powerful . . . . actually too powerful that it short cycled.

Trick to prevent that was put a PVC valve (about a foot above the pump) that you partially close to feather the flow so that pump runs consistently to pump out water as it dumps in the wash basin sink.