need help with roof trusses replacement

[schwochs_services]

Hi guys im hopeing you can help me out. My parents are allowing me to turn one of ther pole barns into my shop. (34x40) However i want to put a two post lift inside. It has 10 foot side walls and the trusses that are would only alow me to have 10 foot ceilings.
My question would be if i run a header from one end of peak to the other end would it be strong enof to remove the webbing and cross members of the trusses. It would be running the 40' lenght. I have no clue if it would be strong enof.
What size i beam would I have to run?
Any other options?
Will it be able to handle the snow load we get in WI?
Any and all help will be apreciated
thanks
Nathan

 

[K'ledgeBldr]

Just have scissor trusses made the same size as the current trusses.
Remove the roofing (I'll assume metal- being a pole barn) and trusses from the section where you want the lift- reverse procedure with new trusses.
I see no reason to do the whole roof for one lift.
And your idea certainly wouldn't work without at least one mid-span support.

 

[BD1]

contact pole barn original builder and see what they say. If not around call others for their input .

 

[Falcon67]

You're talking giant steel beam IMHO, to carry that load and span 40'. I'd come up with a different plan or take the roof off and replace the trusses with scissor trusses. I'm sure that would cost less than a beam large enough to cover that span.

 

[jlckmj]

Nathan,
Welcome to the board.

As far as trusses go, I think the other poster said it best, you would be better off removing the sheeting in the area you want the raised ceiling and replacing the trusses with scissors trusses, then screw the sheeting back down, you should be able to use the same screw holes.

I just had some made from Wisconsin Truss, they supply the Home Depot's in the general 3 or4 state area. They generally do not deal with the public, but it seems that because of the slow economy they are less adamant about that. Use a business name when you order and you should have no problems. I even paid them with a personal check when they delivered them and they did not say a word.

You will have to give them the dimensions, length from wall to wall, width of wall, height of heel if the heal is raised more then the width of the bottom chord, length eve overhang, current pitch, (foot of rise from bottom chord to top of truss at 12 foot from heel)

They were very easy to work with, if you were to draw all of these dimensions out and fax it to them, I am sure they can work it out for you. I would think you are only talking about $120 to $130 per truss.

Feel free to contact me through a Private Message if you have questions
Jim

 

[Zeke]

Give us a floor plan showing the truss layout and where you want the lift. There are ways to modify what you have "in place." A photo of the inside looking up toward where the lift will be would also be helpful.

 

[64dragnwagon]

What pitch is the current roof? Scissor trusses don't add as much space as you might think if the pitch is already somewhat shallow.

 

[schwochs_services]

Thanks guys. im uploading a rough drawing of the pole barn. Ill try and get puctures of looking up tomorrow. not that bright in their to take pictures. ik i dont have to remove all of them to put the lift in. How ever the door track is in the way of the lift, so i will have to make that into a highlift door that fallows the roof line i have asked the guys at ddm high lift for their advice and he pointed out to me that the other roof truss will have to comedown as well for the door to be able to travel at the roof line. Idk what what to do. as for lifting it into place I have acces to plenty of heavy equpment my dad is a landscaper, theirs always a skid loader or high hoe sitting out here.

the red squar is where i want to put my lift. seeing thats the direcion we park the car in their already.

 

[805gregg]

A 40' beam that big would cost more than the barn. Why not just reinforce the roof rafters in the area of the lifts?

 

[Zeke]

It looks to me you will have to modify or replace about 10' of trusses. What you can do is double up the trusses on each side of the raised area and run a 10' beam (or a set of beams) across to help with the load. That beats a 40' beam. As mentioned, the pitch is going to come into the design.

You can modify the existing trusses something like this:

Run the new beams in a way to support where the arrow is. If your trusses are on 24" centers and you can get by with 10' raised, only 4 trusses will be affected.

 

[BillK]

My question would be if i run a header from one end of peak to the other end would it be strong enof to remove the webbing and cross members of the trusses. It would be running the 40' lenght. I have no clue if it would be strong enof.

Nathan,

What most people dont realize is that the trusses / rafters dont only hold the roof up, they keep it from pushing the walls out. If you just cut out the bottom span of the truss, there is nothing to keep the walls from spreading apart at that point. Fold a sheet of paper in half and stand it on your table in the shape of your roof. Now push down on the "ridge" What happens ???

You "might" be able to put some ties across the trusses closer to the roof, but you really need an engineer to tell you the correct way to do this.

Most truss companies will look at a drawing of what you have and come up with a solution for you, especially if they know you are going to buy trusses from them.

 

[schwochs_services]

A 40' beam that big would cost more than the barn. Why not just reinforce the roof rafters in the area of the lifts?

A 40' beam would run me about $2500 thats a 12x12x1/4" steel i beam. A new pole barn would cost me much more, i looked in to that.

Run the new beams in a way to support where the arrow is. If your trusses are on 24" centers and you can get by with 10' raised, only 4 trusses will be affected.

The trusses that are in their now are 10' on center.

What most people dont realize is that the trusses / rafters dont only hold the roof up, they keep it from pushing the walls out. If you just cut out the bottom span of the truss, there is nothing to keep the walls from spreading apart at that point. Fold a sheet of paper in half and stand it on your table in the shape of your roof. Now push down on the "ridge" What happens ???

You "might" be able to put some ties across the trusses closer to the roof, but you really need an engineer to tell you the correct way to do this.

Most truss companies will look at a drawing of what you have and come up with a solution for you, especially if they know you are going to buy trusses from them.

thanks i nvr thought about the holding togeather part.
but i will have to do about 20' of trusses because of the door that will have to be converted to a high lift. Ill have to reconsider this whole idea.

Thanks guys you have made me open my eyes to more problems i must over come.

 

[Zeke]

I missed the fact that you only have a few trusses. Seems to me with a little thinking on your part you could get the lift under and in between 2 of them. Like at the end of that far left bay.

Are you making this more difficult than it is? Can't that 8' door be reconfigured to ride up along the roof line and in between the trusses?

I know what I'd be doing. Sometimes you don't get the cake and a meal too.

 

[schwochs_services]

I missed the fact that you only have a few trusses. Seems to me with a little thinking on your part you could get the lift under and in between 2 of them. Like at the end of that far left bay.

Are you making this more difficult than it is? Can't that 8' door be reconfigured to ride up along the roof line and in between the trusses?

I know what I'd be doing. Sometimes you don't get the cake and a meal too.

Thanks. I have been known to complicate things a little to much. lol Like my teacher always said KISS keep it simple stupid. lol
would it be posible to just remove one of the trusses above the left bay so i can move the lift away from the wall?

 

[Zeke]

No, you can't just remove a truss without consequences. Your info is light on detail, that's how I missed the fact that there are only 3 trusses out in the span. The pic I suggested would have cleared that up.

I still think there is a way, but you've got to post some pics.

BTW, you can upload pics directly from a card or a phone. From a computer. I think it's hard to upload directly from the phone.

 

[schwochs_services]

No, you can't just remove a truss without consequences. Your info is light on detail, that's how I missed the fact that there are only 3 trusses out in the span. The pic I suggested would have cleared that up.

I still think there is a way, but you've got to post some pics.

BTW, you can upload pics directly from a card or a phone. From a computer. I think it's hard to upload directly from the phone.

could you please tell me how to upload them directly from my phone or point me to a fourm that tells me how to.
thanks in advance

 

[junk4dummies]

NO don't do it. You will loose all integrity of the trusses. The trusses with the sheeting make a complete diaphragm

You can not cut out part of a truss. As mentioned it holds the walls form spreading. You need ties at the top of the sill plate one way or the other.

You will not gain much height by changing the trusses.

There are only 2 things you can do. 1. Get an engineer to design an extention onto your your poles so you can make the walls higher all the way around the building. That will require some fantastic engineering support to raise the complete roof. You would be better off taking the roof apart and rebuilding it. Or 2. Cut out the floor and pur conceret to make the side walls and floor for a pit. Make sure you have a cement lined whole under the pit floor with crushed rock so any water that gets in the bottom of the pit will drain.


In the end you can build a 1 bay garage that will fit a nice lift cheaper than you can modify the pole barn. As an architect and contractor I would not even atempt it. Not worth the time and money.

You have not had that steel beem engineered. You need to hire an engineer to see if it will hold the load. If you have a snow load etc. You would need two of them under the truss on each side far enough apart so you can get your lift up. Then rebuild each and every truss. You would need to put in new support post on each end of the beam. They would need to be attached to the building. You would need footings under every support of a beam. Even a ridge beam must be supproted to hold all the weight. With a truss you have the roof load distrbuted along the walls. With a ridge beam it will need to be supported all the way to the ground. If it is lenth wise to the building you will need to span the doors with more beams to support the ridge beam. What is left of the truss will not supprot the beam. By the time you were done you could build a whole new pole building. for the cost of changing the one you have. Pole buildings are cheap and not easly modifyed. Just build another pole barn to meet the need of a lift and use the existing one for a shop,. You can but a breezeway between the to so you don't need to go outside form one to the other.

Remember buildings are engineered form the top down. You read it right,. Every lower part or floor is designed to hold the one above it. You can change any building but at what cost.

 

[DaleK]

For a pole barn that small, and with heavier equipment around, I'd be tempted to raise the building. Just take enough siding off to get access to the poles, cut them off with a chainsaw, and go around with a loader or forklift and lift each pole up 4-6" at a time, put in a spacer, and nail some 2x6s around the post. Then go around again until you get the height you want. Put in some chunks of post and frame them in good or put in new posts, put the siding back on and you can put some plastic sheets at the top of the siding for light.

 

[64dragnwagon]

If the pitch is high enough (I don't think you have told us the pitch) IT CAN BE DONE SAFELY. You will need collar ties up higher to keep the roof from spreading the walls. The pitch is critical because the higher the peak the lower you can attach the collar ties and the stronger the truss will be. Also I don't think you have told us how the oh doors are configured in relation to the gable roof. I think with a 34' truss you could gain enough height by replacing a few trusses with scissor trusses.

 

[Zeke]

could you please tell me how to upload them directly from my phone or point me to a fourm that tells me how to.
thanks in advance

I know it can be done, but me telling you how to do it won't get us very far. You have to have Net access and be on this forum. At that point, your phone manual will be more helpful than I.

Personally, I think phones are slow and over rated. I'd have the phone USB'd to the computer and do it that way. Either save the pics and upload them from a local folder, or choose the USB connection when the forum asks you to choose a file in "manage attachments" while creating a post.

You will find your phone when you open "My Computer." (PC, I have no clue about Mac.)

A little help from others?

 

[schwochs_services]

ok the roof pitch is 4/12 4 inches for ever foot i go over.

 

[64dragnwagon]

ok the roof pitch is 4/12 4 inches for ever foot i go over.

Are the trusses running the 34' OR the 40' direction? Is the garage door on the gable end or the eve side of the building? I know you are having trouble with pics but it would really help us to help you if you can get some up here. I am thinking that scissor trusses may work depending on which direction the vehicle would enter the building and the location of the door. If the trusses are 34' which I am guessing they are then a 4/12 with a 2/12 inside scissor truss you would have a ceiling height at it's highest point in the center of the truss of about 13', This could work if you can position the car in the center of the building at it's highest point.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

The trusses are on 10 ft centers. The fix is easy, park the car straight, parallel with the trusses, between them and if you do have a ceiling, remove it in this area and box in the sides of the trusses.

The building has only five trusses total, including the end trusses. These are probably the big heavy, double trusses, if they are what I have seen before on pole buildings with this wide of a truss spacing. You really don't want to go modifying them, especially when you have an easy fix in hand.

Charles

 

[64dragnwagon]

The trusses are on 10 ft centers. The fix is easy, park the car straight, parallel with the trusses, between them and if you do have a ceiling, remove it in this area and box in the sides of the trusses.

The building has only five trusses total, including the end trusses. These are probably the big heavy, double trusses, if they are what I have seen before on pole buildings with this wide of a truss spacing. You really don't want to go modifying them, especially when you have an easy fix in hand.

Charles

Absolutely correct, I hadn't noticed that the trusses are 10' oc. If the door lines up where you can do as described above then are in great shape. Do as described above.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Quite honestly, the best thing to do may be to build a bay on the end of the building, extra tall and as wide as you want, stick build it. It would be better than butchering up the rest of the building. This type of pole building has a limited amount of structure, ten poles, five very heavy trusses, and girts and purlins to tie it all together. you cannot go cutting and removing or weakening much without severe consequences.

Charles

 

[schwochs_services]

ok thanks guys im goint to look into building another bay it seams the easyest and it means a bigger shop

 

[64dragnwagon]

The trusses are on 10 ft centers. The fix is easy, park the car straight, parallel with the trusses, between them and if you do have a ceiling, remove it in this area and box in the sides of the trusses.

The building has only five trusses total, including the end trusses. These are probably the big heavy, double trusses, if they are what I have seen before on pole buildings with this wide of a truss spacing. You really don't want to go modifying them, especially when you have an easy fix in hand.

Charles

This plan WILL NOT alter the structural integrity one bit. Charles, why the change of heart? Now you have the guy building an addition to his building.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

This plan WILL NOT alter the structural integrity one bit. Charles, why the change of heart? Now you have the guy building an addition to his building.

Largely because of his concerns over the door. Its quite possible, without modifying the door, that it would have to be closed to use the lift, and the lift would have to have the posts spread wide enough to go on the outside of the two trusses (ie. at least 120 inches between the columns plus some additional for the thickness of the trusses. You could not put the lift inside the 10 ft width, it would not fit. My lift is something like 108 on the inside and 130 on the outside of the columns, so you would need a extra wide lift to fit.

The trusses are 10 ft on center, meaning there is less than 10 ft between them. Stick a dually quad cab on that lift and you'd have to be real careful. If this is a shop to work for hire in you need some versatility, even if its just for his personal use, it would be tight. Adding one bay, 15 to 18 ft additional length on the building would not be a huge thing, and he could have a tall roof and door.

Food for thought.

Charles

Also, we don't know anything about the concrete in the floor. I'm betting its not exceptionally thick.

 

[64dragnwagon]

Largely because of his concerns over the door. Its quite possible, without modifying the door, that it would have to be closed to use the lift, and the lift would have to have the posts spread wide enough to go on the outside of the two trusses (ie. at least 120 inches between the columns plus some additional for the thickness of the trusses. You could not put the lift inside the 10 ft width, it would not fit. My lift is something like 108 on the inside and 130 on the outside of the columns, so you would need a extra wide lift to fit.

The trusses are 10 ft on center, meaning there is less than 10 ft between them. Stick a dually quad cab on that lift and you'd have to be real careful. If this is a shop to work for hire in you need some versatility, even if its just for his personal use, it would be tight. Adding one bay, 15 to 18 ft additional length on the building would not be a huge thing, and he could have a tall roof and door.

Food for thought.

Charles

Also, we don't know anything about the concrete in the floor. I'm betting its not exceptionally thick.

Good points. It sounds like he may want/need the extra space as well.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

The trusses are on 10 ft centers. The fix is easy, park the car straight, parallel with the trusses, between them and if you do have a ceiling, remove it in this area and box in the sides of the trusses.

The building has only five trusses total, including the end trusses. These are probably the big heavy, double trusses, if they are what I have seen before on pole buildings with this wide of a truss spacing. You really don't want to go modifying them, especially when you have an easy fix in hand.

Charles

this is the best answer and if the door does not line up why not add a new 8 or 10' door parallel with the trusses and you can drive right in.