Need home AC advice -- repair or replace

[milwaukeephil]

Hi all...
I escaped the Tools board and made my way over here -- you can send me back when we're done here! ;-)

Yesterday I had to have a tech come out and put 1.5 pounds of R22 into my system due to a leak. Same thing last summer. The unit is a Carrier and it was installed when the home was built about 10 years ago.

I read a bunch of threads and see that this is common. A lot of people say the overlooked leak spots are the service valves.

The guy who came out just pumped in the gas, got me running, and said his sales guy will call me about getting a replacement system. He said a new system would be north of $5k because they would want to replace the lines going into the house to the furnace at the same time.

My question is: is it worth having them attempt to find the leak and fix it? What about buying the Harbor Freight leak detector and sniffing around myself?

It's hard to stomach replacing a 10-year-old system!

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

 

[rlitman]

I own this leak detector:
https://viot.us/shop.php?model=HLD9
It works as well as the Inficons I've had it side by side with.

Service valves have caps that should be on tightly. The caps should prevent any loss there (unless they're missing or loose).

The cost of adding more R22 is only going up every year. Between that, and the increased efficiency of newer systems, there will be a point when replacement is in the cards. I'm not sure where that is for you though.

 

[spudley]

My unit was installed about 9 years ago and I've had two failures. First leak was supposedly at the valve stem so I had to pay for a refill of freon, then the next year another leak in the coil which needed to be replaced plus more freon.
My guess is the coil was leaking the first time they replaced the valve stem guts.
Not real happy with my "friend" (high school buddy) who did the work.

 

[JerryC]

IMHO, if the guy onsite didn't mention finding the leak, I'd find a different company.
It could be as simple as the schrader valves at the condenser. You could soap test those yourself, if they are leaking they are an easy fix for a tech. The tech should have checked that it's so easy.

if it's a leak in the evaporator coil that can get expensive, but still might be worth fixing. Same with the condenser.

Did the tech do any of the minimal checks like look at your filter and condenser coil for dirt/obstruction? Or just a gas and go?

At the very least get a couple of more estimates for fix or replace. My experience is the lower prices come from smaller shops as they have less overhead. Here the big guy with most trucks and advertising was double the price of the two little guy shops that gave me estimates.

 

[dsimatt]

You did well if if was a new subdivision style build that they buy the cheapest underspeced systems they can, my friends made it 8 years and then died completely.

I'd have a couple places quote you and go with the one you want, how many more years till it dies completely?

 

[milwaukeephil]

Interesting thoughts from all of you.. thanks!
I don't know my AC units, but the builder who built our house built it and lived in it for 5 years. From what I can tell, everything in the house is overbuilt and uses really high end stuff. I can't imagine that he cheaped out on the AC.

To the guy who asked if it was a "gas and go"... yes, I believe it was. It was a $200 same-day call -- $200 for the call, $250 for the R22. I never saw him checking for leaks.

I had to pay extra for the same-day call, otherwise it would have been 10+ days to get someone out, and we're in a heat wave. Funny how they had no problem scheduling the AC *salesman* to come out at 3pm today for a FREE ESTIMATE though!!

I called and pushed him back to next Monday so I would have time to research and read the advice that's already pouring in on this thread. You guys are great, thanks!

 

[vavet]

The HF unit is $65. I'd probably spend it to see if I could find the leak.
Replacing it for a leak seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water.
If a shot of R22 lasts the rest of the reason, then maybe you just keep doing that until there's a reason not to do that.
If a system if $5k and lasts 10 years, that's $500 a year. How much did the shot of R22 cost?
Granted there's the efficiency factor of a new unit, but that's partially of completely offset by the time-value of money. I'd rather pay $500/year for the next 10 years than to pay $5k today.

 

[JerryC]

Interesting thoughts from all of you.. thanks!
I don't know my AC units, but the builder who built our house built it and lived in it for 5 years. From what I can tell, everything in the house is overbuilt and uses really high end stuff. I can't imagine that he cheaped out on the AC.

To the guy who asked if it was a "gas and go"... yes, I believe it was. It was a $200 same-day call -- $200 for the call, $250 for the R22. I never saw him checking for leaks.

I had to pay extra for the same-day call, otherwise it would have been 10+ days to get someone out, and we're in a heat wave. Funny how they had no problem scheduling the AC *salesman* to come out at 3pm today for a FREE ESTIMATE though!!

I called and pushed him back to next Monday so I would have time to research and read the advice that's already pouring in on this thread. You guys are great, thanks!

They raped you on the service call, what should you expect from the sales guy?

I used to use a family business that lived less than a mile from me. They would come any day I called. Sometimes it would be after dark but they would show. One July 4th I had party going with about 25 people in the house and the AC went out. I called and left a msg and they showed within an hour of my call. This was 10+ years ago but even so... they only charged me $65 for a capacitor replacement. Point being when they live close by they usually make time for you.

My other advice is that if you are getting good service for a good price from a local guy, offer to give a tip. Twenty bucks can get a lot of personalized service down the road. Even if they won't take the tip they will remember you as being decent person.

 

[fitter30]

Since your system is up and running wait to the end of the season when prices drop. Your system uses refrigerant 22 new systems use 410A. Ask yourself if what you have are you satisfied with the operation, is there any rebates from your utility company, how long are you going to be in your house if a year or two builders grade would do longer might want a higher efficiency unit. As for your leak look for black oil spot, purchase some leak detector bubbles and with unit off spray bubbles and look for foam because your leak is small.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

Find a new technician, $450 to shoot a pound and half of R22 is highway robbery.

Buy your own R22 and it will cost you about $20 a year to keep it going.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I haven't bought R22 for about a year, but IIRC, it was about $15/#. Anyone is entiteld to a litte markup, but you paid over 10x my cost. I always hate to read this stuff. No wonder so many consider people in my field as theives.

Tommy

 

[ddawg16]

Only 10 years old? It sounds like someone was dumping their older R22 systems.

Here is a good link on the R22 stuff

https://www.airconditioning-systems.com/r22-air-conditioning.html

Basically, after 2020, it's going to be harder to refill the system.

However, I'm not sure I buy the 'must replace the lines' part. I don't see why they can't use the existing lines. Yes, they will have to be totally cleaned out....and yes, the evap will have to be replaced as well.

Like fitter30 said....run it for now and plan it's replacement off season.

 

[bonneyman]

Damn I can't stand these "pump it up and schedule a salesman" companies! But honest A/C companies are like cobblers and watch reapirmen - a dying breed.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

However, I'm not sure I buy the 'must replace the lines' part. I don't see why they can't use the existing lines. Yes, they will have to be totally cleaned out....and yes, the evap will have to be replaced as well.

You can't reuse R22 line sets when you convert to 410a unless you absolutely know for sure the original lines were brazed or silver soldered. Visually identifiying brazed joints is simple. There's no way to do it for silver solder versus regular solder. Then there's the issue of not know what is hidden.

Tommy

 

[Jim greengo]

You can't reuse R22 line sets when you convert to 410a unless you absolutely know for sure the original lines were brazed or silver soldered. Visually identifiying brazed joints is simple. There's no way to do it for silver solder versus regular solder. Then there's the issue of not know what is hidden.

Tommy

I still use staybrite 8 on 410a installs,no problems to date from using it in the newer systems.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

use some soap bubbles, get some dish soap and make your own.
look very carefully with a small mirror and a light, with a small leak the bubbles will be small.

I can just see how this is how it's going to go with the sales person:
Tech told you north of "5K"
sales guy comes out says " it's a big job but we can do it for $4500"

which is probably $1500 to much even if you change the line set and coil.

you feel like your getting a deal

 

[Jim greengo]

Everybody should have one of these screwdrivers in their pocket for checking shrader valves,the most over looked thing and easiest to check for a leak.
If I had a dollar for everytime I've fixed a leak that somebody else told was a bad coil by just tightening up a shrader valve!

 

[hobie1dog]

R-22 runs a little over $30.00/pound so a 30 pound jug is $900.00

All installed copper lines are brazed with 15% hard stick silver solder, with Harris being the most popular brand, been that way for many years, so you would not have to replace the lines.

If a service tech cannot find a leak (of any size) then he simply doesn't care, or have an electronic leak detector worth getting out of his truck. Cheap battery operated models are poor performing.. sure the 120 volt $400.00 models require you to run a power cord to get them operating, but they can also find a 1 ounce per year leak, think about that. I made a lot of money going behind companies who either wouldn't pay their service techs enough for them to buy their own $400.00 leak detectors, or supply them with one. (Companies usually expect people to buy most all their own tools, as profits are their no.1 concern). I would always get the customer and show them exactly where the leak was, letting them hear the detector, and then bring them back out to show them that it was fixed, again letting them audibly hear the leak detector beeping remain constant. This instilled great confidence with them that I wanted to fix it correctly, and permanently.

Finding a great a/c service tech who won't charge you $400.00 for a $10.00 capacitor like the local criminals we have around here is almost impossible, and who actually know the correct way to install (using nitrogen to prevent black scale buildup during brazing, evacuation using a Micron gauge to get down to 300 microns which insures that you have a leak free totally sealed system and have removed all the moisture ( which only happens below 2000 microns). Then charging the system using Super heat or Sub cooling precise procedures to insure that you have exactly the correct amount of freon in the system for maximum temperature drop across the coil, condensate production, and compressor cooling to ensure a long system life.

In answering your questions. Yes you likely have 5-7 more years of life in you unit, and getting the leak fixed properly, permanently ( I have one unit I put in for a friend who has never had freon added in 24years)
So personally I would do that, then put money aside for a new unit during that time. You should strive to get the maximum service life/your money's worth out of it.

That was a lot of finger pecking.

 

[like2wheel]

That was a lot of finger pecking.

But thanks, we appreciate it

 

[jjrbus]

https://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/app/d/pinellas-park-r22-sealed-30lb/6915205829.html

 

[hobie1dog]

https://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/app/d/pinellas-park-r22-sealed-30lb/6915205829.html

That's a steal, wonder if he would ship it?

 

[yeldogt]

It should not happen ..... fill and don't check for leaks .....but, its all too common.

I have a rule -- slightly low on refrigerant. Replace the schrader valves -- I tell them up front and I don't deal with people that want to change me $300 for a 15 min job on top of the service call and refill.

In one berth the service guy will say -- some systems just leak ..... and the next they say I hate the schrader valves? It's why I always tell people to stay away from the "tune up" adds. If it's working ... leave it alone .. keep it clean. All too often the schrader valves leak after being played with.

To the OP. If it is one of those small carrier "boxes" "bricks" "cubes" .. people called them all kinds of things ... I believe carrier called them "cube" . sam and tan -- they are great little units. You will never see the energy savings and gain no comfort replacing on single speed with another

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I still use staybrite 8 on 410a installs,no problems to date from using it in the newer systems.

No problems doesn't mean it's OK. People say the same thing about PVC for compressed air lines.
It's not allowed by any manufacturer and it's against code in some states. Many manufacturers call for 15% brazing only. The second reason brazing is required is to keep fluix out of the system. Newer systems are much more succeptable to problems from a "dirty" system. Use Nitrogen no matter what you do.

Tommy

 

[rlitman]

...Newer systems are much more succeptable to problems from a "dirty" system. Use Nitrogen no matter what you do.

Tommy

And how many R22 systems have you seen that were nitrogen purged before brazing. Between that and oil contamination, I just cannot imagine re-using linesets brazed for R22 in an R410a install.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

And how many R22 systems have you seen that were nitrogen purged before brazing. Between that and oil contamination, I just cannot imagine re-using linesets brazed for R22 in an R410a install.

In the "old days" we only brazed 22 systems in the presence of high heat or vibration, i.e. at the compressor. Everything else was stay brite #8 (or 95/5 if you were an old timer). Didn't purge for small stuff until OEMs recommended it. Always installed a suction filter drier and a LL drier. Suction filter drier was monitored and if it had more than a 3 psi pressure drop it was replaced.

Tommy

 

[milwaukeephil]

Hi, just wanted to pop in here and say thanks and give an update. I can't believe the collective knowledge of the people here!

Anyway, I put off the salesman till Monday -- you guys have really put it in my head that what this company is doing is fundamentally dishonest. I'm going to spend the weekend trying to find that leak, with a combination of suds and a cheap leak detector. I'm not settling for a new system if a leak can be fixed... it's a closed system, so there's no reason to think I couldn't get another 5-10 years out of it from what I'm understanding.

Just wanted to say thanks again and I will let you know what happens!

BTW, I was totally wrong about the model. It's an Armstrong Air Concept 10. I called Armstrong and they verified by the serial number that it was made in 2004.

 

[Jim greengo]

No problems doesn't mean it's OK. People say the same thing about PVC for compressed air lines.
It's not allowed by any manufacturer and it's against code in some states. Many manufacturers call for 15% brazing only. The second reason brazing is required is to keep fluix out of the system. Newer systems are much more succeptable to problems from a "dirty" system. Use Nitrogen no matter what you do.

Tommy

I buy it at the same supply house I've been buying condensing units and coils from since 1996,they're the ones who turned me on to it.

 

[jjrbus]

I have a cheap leak detector and like it. But and it is a BIG BUT, they can and do give false readings.. It is $20 off Amazon, not a big buck one the pros use.

 

[rlitman]

I have a cheap leak detector and like it. But and it is a BIG BUT, they can and do give false readings.. It is $20 off Amazon, not a big buck one the pros use.

The expensive leak detectors give false readings too. And they really only work well in still air, so on a coil, you need to pressurize the system, shut it off, and then quickly start sniffing, or else you won't find anything.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I buy it at the same supply house I've been buying condensing units and coils from since 1996,they're the ones who turned me on to it.

Yeah, and the guy behind the supply house counter has SOO many years of training, especially from the manufacturer...

If it's been working for you (so far) and you don't care what the codes and manufacturers say, there's not much I can say to make you change your ways.

Tommy

 

[Jim greengo]

No problems doesn't mean it's OK. People say the same thing about PVC for compressed air lines.
It's not allowed by any manufacturer and it's against code in some states. Many manufacturers call for 15% brazing only. The second reason brazing is required is to keep fluix out of the system. Newer systems are much more succeptable to problems from a "dirty" system. Use Nitrogen no matter what you do.

Tommy

I would never use PVC for an air line,that's an apples and oranges comparison.
Look into what heating up copper enough to melt 15% stick
Solder does to the tensile strength of the copper versus what the stay brite 8 does to it.
No need to purge the copper with nitrogen when using the staybrite 8,it doesnt get hot enough to cause oxidation.

 

[Jim greengo]

Yeah, and the guy behind the supply house counter has SOO many years of training, especially from the manufacturer...

If it's been working for you (so far) and you don't care what the codes and manufacturers say, there's not much I can say to make you change your ways.

Tommy

Well the salesman I deal with a johnstone has been there since early 90s,and the fine folks at Goodman put on a lot of classes there the Omaha stores.
And I know they've flown him to Houston on several occasions over the years I've been buying from him.
If there was some rash of problems caused by staybrite 8 being used on installs I'd bet you dollars to donuts the folks at johnstone would have heard about it ,dont ya think?

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Well the salesman I deal with a johnstone has been there since early 90s,and the fine folks at Goodman put on a lot of classes there the Omaha stores.
And I know they've flown him to Houston on several occasions over the years I've been buying from him.
If there was some rash of problems caused by staybrite 8 being used on installs I'd bet you dollars to donuts the folks at johnstone would have heard about it ,dont ya think?

I'm not arguing with you nor am I trying to imply that you are not a good tech, I'm just relaying to you what the industry requires.
At the risk of sounding callous, I know Johnstone has classes. I've dealt with them since I taught at LTI over 20 years ago. It's just that most of the classes they send their counterpeople to relate to SALES. That is not to say that all of their people have never been in the field. I'm sure if there was a huge issue with using #8, they might just advise the techs at the counter not to use it, but the reality of it is, they have no vested interest in whether an install or retrofit is done one way or another. If it goes bad, they'll just sell more stuff. Like I said, if your personal track record is good, I'm not going to try change your mind. We're "all good" as far as I'm concerned.

Tommy

 

[brewchief]

15 year old 10 seer unit, not worth putting much money into IMHO.
If they were 10 days out and able to fit you in I can understand why the tech didn't spend a bunch of time searching for a leak, simply not enough time to do it at that point. In all probability it will be leaking in the indoor coil or the outdoor coil and will require major component replacement or complete system replacement.

15 years is near the end of its lifespan.

What's the furnace? Might be time for a total system replacement.

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