Need info on Bucking tool? Rivet work.

[chris fresh]

Hey guy's, Not sure if that's the proper name for what i need. Ive decided to build a copper hood for my kitchen,I've done copper work before with flashing and misc stuff,But want to go a way I'm not familiar with.Gonna build a 60'' copper hood. I talked to a local supplier and they have 12,16,and 20 oz in 3'x8' sheets. I have my design and plan on making a jig and templates out of poster board to maximize material and eliminate waste/drop.

Ideally I wanted smooth seems,But only way i figure is to TIG them,I mig all day,but have never done TIG and am not going to learn with 500 in copper sheet. I'm not a fan of raised seam for a hood. So I have decided to go another way.

My plan is this,Going to build a skeleton out of angle iron,Top and bottom frame, Then roll some flat stock for my curves to connect the upper to the lower. The idea is then to skin it with copper,Of course there will be other things included like the mounting points and allow an area for lighting,switches,ect.

My plan is have the seams fall of the flat stock,These seams with then be covered with a decorative strip of polished stainless.The idea here is to sandwich the copper between the flat stock and stainless and then use brass rivets.
I'm a big fan of tri colored metals. I am restoring a 60'' Vulcan double oven with 6 burners and a 24'' griddle. After all the important stuff is out of the way,I'm going to skin the doors with copper,replace the back panel behind the knobs with polished brass,And have the door handles sent out and re chromed.

So onto the question. I've looked on Ebay for rivets. I'm looking for something around 3/16th on the shaft and around a 3'8 or 1/2'' on the head. these will be centered on the 1" stainless. They seem fairly cheap from what i've seen.I'm looking for the tooling to, seat? the rivet. I plan on using an air hammer instead of hand hammering. I think I've heard the term bucking, but not sure. Any info would be greatly appreciated. I remember a while back a few guy's doing rivet work and really loved it,Just cant find those threads.

 

[Slick111]

Aircraft Tool Supply ( ATS ) has what you need for bucking bars and rivet dies. Also sounds like you want a rivet known as button head probably not needing any rivets that are real hard the Boeing code is BB the D rivets are harder/stronger but unless you shoot & buck rivets a lot go with a softer type and practice first on scrap parts to get it down and best to have a partner to do the bucking.

 

[bimmer1980]

FYI--Eastwood also carries a small rivet gun and bucking bar kit. They also have a nice tutorial online.....

There is also a nice thread on here that talks about solid rivets. I would recommend checking it out before you get started....

While you can use an air hammer or chisel to set rivet, a real rivet gun has a better trigger for more control and more consistent setting of the rivets.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Dis-similar metals means corrosion.

 

[yaidunno]

A truss head solid rivet will give you the head diameter your after using 3/16" shank. Round head will yield a .348 dia. head with 3/16" shank.

I would advise against using just a regular old air hammer for setting the rivets. While it may look and function the same, the stroke, trigger sensitivity, and power are much different compared to an actual gun.

To answer your other question, yes you need a bucking bar. Find one that will fit properly in the space your working in.

ATS, Aircraft Spruce, and Brown Tool all have what you need for this project.

 

[Cypherian]

Hey guy's, Not sure if that's the proper name for what i need. Ive decided to build a copper hood for my kitchen,I've done copper work before with flashing and misc stuff,But want to go a way I'm not familiar with.Gonna build a 60'' copper hood. I talked to a local supplier and they have 12,16,and 20 oz in 3'x8' sheets. I have my design and plan on making a jig and templates out of poster board to maximize material and eliminate waste/drop.

Ideally I wanted smooth seems,But only way i figure is to TIG them,I mig all day,but have never done TIG and am not going to learn with 500 in copper sheet. I'm not a fan of raised seam for a hood. So I have decided to go another way.

My plan is this,Going to build a skeleton out of angle iron,Top and bottom frame, Then roll some flat stock for my curves to connect the upper to the lower. The idea is then to skin it with copper,Of course there will be other things included like the mounting points and allow an area for lighting,switches,ect.

My plan is have the seams fall of the flat stock,These seams with then be covered with a decorative strip of polished stainless.The idea here is to sandwich the copper between the flat stock and stainless and then use brass rivets.
I'm a big fan of tri colored metals. I am restoring a 60'' Vulcan double oven with 6 burners and a 24'' griddle. After all the important stuff is out of the way,I'm going to skin the doors with copper,replace the back panel behind the knobs with polished brass,And have the door handles sent out and re chromed.

So onto the question. I've looked on Ebay for rivets. I'm looking for something around 3/16th on the shaft and around a 3'8 or 1/2'' on the head. these will be centered on the 1" stainless. They seem fairly cheap from what i've seen.I'm looking for the tooling to, seat? the rivet. I plan on using an air hammer instead of hand hammering. I think I've heard the term bucking, but not sure. Any info would be greatly appreciated. I remember a while back a few guy's doing rivet work and really loved it,Just cant find those threads.

Hey,

You can find all the tools as stated at either ATS , Brown Aviation Tool, Theyardstore among others. The rivets depending on what material you wish might be harder to find. Alum , Steel rivets are very common refer to the link about riveting it has rivet types and styles links I believe. If your going to shoot through copper and steel a steel rivet 5/32 would be good since your just attaching it for decoration purpose not for real strength. If you want real strength look up rivet pattern lay out and you will see it is going to require a lot of drilling, deburring and then carefully shooting the rivets. The copper will mar very very easily which is why you see most copper hoods with standing seams or folded drive cleat seams.

Dissimilar metal corrosion can occur since you are attaching stainless to copper to steel with brass. Brass and copper are fine together even stainless and steel are ok but should have cloth dissimilar metals tape between them (http://www.everwin.com.sg/scotch853.htm) . Be warned shooting soft rivets ie SO rated takes more practice and finesse with the rivet gun and bucking bar choice as they will deform rapidly in the wrong direction. Harder rivets are a bit more predictable as long as they are sized properly in length for the thickness of the material see: http://rivetsonline.com/additional-information/solid-rivet-lengths-for-various-grips.html mind rivets are also done in dash diameters and lengths like bolts IE a 5-8 AD rivet is approx. 5/32 in dia and 1/2" in length the first dash number is in 1/32" increments and the second in 1/16" increments.

Here is a thought to save you from frustration and such you can get brass screws and go that way or you can dimple the copper , countersink the steel to match the dimple for counter sunk rivet or screw. I would suggest you do the brass screw , learning to rivet on a sheet of copper is a very expensive opps if you tip the rivet gun or your partner is not on the rivet etc. When riveting there is a set way of doing it at least it is generally agreed on :

Layout pattern on tape on the material

check edge distance and rivet spacing

Start in the center of the panel drill ( thin copper is easy to catch a drill bit in use a drill busing from the top or drill from the back using sacrificial material above then put a cleco in (http://www.yardstore.com/browse.cfm/2,398.html)
proceed till all holes are drilled

deburr holes both sides

if using dissimilar sealant or tape carefully disassemble and install now

re cleco the panel back in place

start shooting from the center out if your doing a square shoot a few from center out on all four sides continuing like torqueing lug nuts a few on each side till done. Soft material will deform and stretch some so if you do it all at once on one side you could end up with a ripple. and drilling as you go does not work well as the chips get caught up between sheets.

I have shot several thousand rivets on aircraft and related parts so the above is my process others may do things differently.

Check out the other threads on riveting and watch a few videos:}

Cypher

 

[chris fresh]

Aircraft Tool Supply ( ATS ) has what you need for bucking bars and rivet dies. Also sounds like you want a rivet known as button head probably not needing any rivets that are real hard the Boeing code is BB the D rivets are harder/stronger but unless you shoot & buck rivets a lot go with a softer type and practice first on scrap parts to get it down and best to have a partner to do the bucking.

Yes,I'm looking for the button head style,And i definitely plan on some practice before hand.

 

[chris fresh]

FYI--Eastwood also carries a small rivet gun and bucking bar kit. They also have a nice tutorial online.....

There is also a nice thread on here that talks about solid rivets. I would recommend checking it out before you get started....

While you can use an air hammer or chisel to set rivet, a real rivet gun has a better trigger for more control and more consistent setting of the rivets.

Saw this kit in a youtube vid lastnight. I like it,just need to price it. and i agree with the gun set up,that's why i'm leaning toward that kit instead of piecing things together.

 

[chris fresh]

Dis-similar metals means corrosion.

I've seen this between stainless and aluminum, And i know it's still possible,but it's a hood,inside and out of typical elements. I'm sold on the look,so I'll take my chances.Worst case is i have to polish some edges 5 years from now. lol

 

[chris fresh]

Hey,

You can find all the tools as stated at either ATS , Brown Aviation Tool, Theyardstore among others. The rivets depending on what material you wish might be harder to find. Alum , Steel rivets are very common refer to the link about riveting it has rivet types and styles links I believe. If your going to shoot through copper and steel a steel rivet 5/32 would be good since your just attaching it for decoration purpose not for real strength. If you want real strength look up rivet pattern lay out and you will see it is going to require a lot of drilling, deburring and then carefully shooting the rivets. The copper will mar very very easily which is why you see most copper hoods with standing seams or folded drive cleat seams.

Dissimilar metal corrosion can occur since you are attaching stainless to copper to steel with brass. Brass and copper are fine together even stainless and steel are ok but should have cloth dissimilar metals tape between them (http://www.everwin.com.sg/scotch853.htm) . Be warned shooting soft rivets ie SO rated takes more practice and finesse with the rivet gun and bucking bar choice as they will deform rapidly in the wrong direction. Harder rivets are a bit more predictable as long as they are sized properly in length for the thickness of the material see: http://rivetsonline.com/additional-information/solid-rivet-lengths-for-various-grips.html mind rivets are also done in dash diameters and lengths like bolts IE a 5-8 AD rivet is approx. 5/32 in dia and 1/2" in length the first dash number is in 1/32" increments and the second in 1/16" increments.

Here is a thought to save you from frustration and such you can get brass screws and go that way or you can dimple the copper , countersink the steel to match the dimple for counter sunk rivet or screw. I would suggest you do the brass screw , learning to rivet on a sheet of copper is a very expensive opps if you tip the rivet gun or your partner is not on the rivet etc. When riveting there is a set way of doing it at least it is generally agreed on :

Layout pattern on tape on the material

check edge distance and rivet spacing

Start in the center of the panel drill ( thin copper is easy to catch a drill bit in use a drill busing from the top or drill from the back using sacrificial material above then put a cleco in (http://www.yardstore.com/browse.cfm/2,398.html)
proceed till all holes are drilled

deburr holes both sides

if using dissimilar sealant or tape carefully disassemble and install now

re cleco the panel back in place

start shooting from the center out if your doing a square shoot a few from center out on all four sides continuing like torqueing lug nuts a few on each side till done. Soft material will deform and stretch some so if you do it all at once on one side you could end up with a ripple. and drilling as you go does not work well as the chips get caught up between sheets.

I have shot several thousand rivets on aircraft and related parts so the above is my process others may do things differently.

Check out the other threads on riveting and watch a few videos:}

Cypher

The copper will be sandwiched between the flat stock and the stainless. The stainless will get pre drilled,layed on the flat stock and match drilled. I don't have any worries of marring or scratching the copper,The rivet will be center in the middle of the 1"stainless,and i will tape and paper the copper around the area. plus, I am spacing the rivets roughly 5 or 6" apart,so there won't be that many really,and mostly cosmetic.

 

[lodaddyo]

http://bigflatsrivet.com

 

[racingtadpole]

What about using domed socket head cap screws in brass, you get the aesthetic dimensions you are looking for and don't require any exotic tooling.

 

[Kevin54]

Chris....send me a pic of the rivets you are using or the exact size, or send me a rivet and I can fix you up. Over the years I have made literally thousands of rivet punches and bucking tools and have the tools to make seats for the rivet head if it's a round headed rivet. If it's a universal rivet head it takes a special cut tool, which I also believe I have.

 

[Warrenator]

Or you could just use pop rivets, no bucking required, get everything you need for 30 bucks at your local hardware store, since it is covered up anyway. They install with a pulling tool from one side. Yes I know how to drive solid rivets, have my own bucking bars and rivet sets.

If you do proceed with solid rivets, practice on scrap. Common faults to avoid are letting the tool slip off the work, making little "smile" marks on the work, and not holding the bucking bar square so you get a crooked buck tail on the backside.

 

[csp]

Sounds like the look of solid rivets is very important to the overall look. Can't get that with pop rivets.

 

[Warrenator]

Ah, I didn't get it at first, just the seams are covered not the rivets. No pop rivets then. I have seen plain copper rivets before, you might want to search for those.

And clecos are helpful, clamp the pieces together, drill a few holes, cleco them together, then you can drill the rest of the holes and they will all be lined up.