Need serious help, breaker trouble

[ShopWelder]

Hi guys and gals!

I have a serious problem in my breaker box and need as much help as I can get. My wife and I went shopping just before dinner and came home to our breaker box is disarray. Half the house is dead or using minimal power.

First, Capt Obvious says check for tripped breakers. Immediately, I went for the multimeter...

So... My layout for those who need to visualize:
100a main, single switch breaker. Drops to 2 columns of 15-20a breakers.

Readings:
Left side Right side
123v 123v
74v. 74v
123v. 123v
74v. 74v
123v

It's a pattern. I went to the basement again, shortly after checking. Initially, the 74v readings were 29v. I heard the heater unit struggling, so I killed it, which boosted the voltage to 74v in every other breaker. Even the double poles are @ 123v on one and 74v on the other.

New main? New box? Wrecking ball to the house and say f#%¥ it? Any help would be great. I have a wife and kids that would really like to keep the heat going here up north. Thanks in advance!

 

[MrMark]

One of your phase wires has a bad connection. The two black wires coming in from the Poco are the phase wires.

The fingers that the breakers connect to go like this:

A A
B B
A A

etc.

So, in my example your B wire would be loose, either at the panel or on the PoCo end. No big deal. Verify your connection is tight and clean and if still a problem call the PoCo to check the transformer connection at the handhole or pole as the case may be.

 

[ShopWelder]

Thanks for the input! When you say 'phase wires', you're referring to the 2 black wires that feed the main breaker?

 

[Junkman]

Most likely a bad transformer on the pole. The nice thing about the power company, is that they work 24/7, so no matter what time you call, someone will respond to check out the problem. If you have elderly or small children living in the home, they will put you on the top of the list. The transformer at my home failed in the dead of the winter, and they had 3 crews working into the night to get a new transformer onto the pole.

 

[CoopVA]

Thanks for the input! When you say 'phase wires', you're referring to the 2 black wires that feed the main breaker?

Yes


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[raddksn]

Most likely a bad transformer on the pole. The nice thing about the power company, is that they work 24/7, so no matter what time you call, someone will respond to check out the problem. If you have elderly or small children living in the home, they will put you on the top of the list. The transformer at my home failed in the dead of the winter, and they had 3 crews working into the night to get a new transformer onto the pole.

^^^^^^^^I agree with this^^^^^^^^^

To verify check voltage on line side (incoming) of the 100 amp main!

 

[ddawg16]

I also vote transformer........maybe.

Usually, when the transformer goes like that....when one side is low, the other is high. It's usually the neutral. Gets worse when you turn something on....one side goes higher and the other side even lower.

Since you have a meter...measure right at the lugs where the power comes in...measure both on the lug and the wire strands to make sure you don't have a loose connection right there.

If the voltage is low there....it's a PoCo issue....

Just for reference....while we use the therm phase....it's in reality single phase. Your 240Vac is actually 2 120Vac lines that are 180 deg out of phase with each other.

Using MrMark's example...

AA
BB
AA
BB

If you wanted 240.....that is why you have a breaker with two handles that takes up 2 slots. One slot (A) is catching one leg of the 120, the other slot (B) is catching the other leg...which gives you 240Vac.

If your breaker panel was of the type that accepted tandem breakers (2 breakers on one slot).....both of those breakers would be on the same (A). I've seen people who thought they could use one of those to get 240Vac.

Clear as mud?

Please report back as to what the final issue was. That kind of feedback helps everyone.

 

[Rookie2]

Main Breaker or serious corrosion at the stab in's on the back side. CALL AN ELECTRICIAN or your house could burn down !

 

[gasaxeman]

As a professional electrician I would first verify that I have 240v at meter. Cover needs to be pulled for this and is really not something a person should do if not comfortable working around live power. I would usually tell the customer to call power company first to save on the cost of a service call.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Agree with the others. Its either a bad connection or a bad transformer. Check the line side(meter side) of your main breaker. If u get the same readings then theres a bad connection on the poco side or bad transformer. Had this happen at our old house and it turned out to be one of the splices on the pole!

And this isnt a sign of a bad neutral. If it was a bad neutral, the sum of both readings would equal 240v, so for example, 166v leg A and 74v leg B.

After verifying readings at main breaker, if theyre still wrong, CALL THE POCO IMMEDIATELY!

 

[volleyball]

My sis had this in her rental. I saw one leg dead so I pulled the meter and the wire from meter socket to panel was crud. No slack to do a repair. Took her a week to get the landlord to get someone in who tried to repair. When I saw the old wire there, I told the landlord to get a real electrician in there to fix or I was taking my pictures to the town.
If this is your problem, it is the owners responsibility. And not a job for the handy home owner who only know a little about wiring.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I lost one of the hots in the underground feed from the transformer to the meter. Rock got onto it and eventually ate a hole in it, water, then corrosion, wire burned up. POCO found three or four places like this in this feed and the other one. they did water proof underground splices to repair it.

Charles

 

[walrus]

What do you have across the 2 hots feeding the main breaker? Looking at voltages on single pole breakers I'd say you lost neutral

 

[rburke65]

Call the power company and they ill tell you if the problem is yours or theirs.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

What do you have across the 2 hots feeding the main breaker? Looking at voltages on single pole breakers I'd say you lost neutral

If he had lost the neutral, he would have weird voltages on BOTH sides of the bus. Since the voltage from one side of the bus to neutral is normal (120v) then it is not the neutral. The fact that the other side of the bus to neutral is giving a low voltage (and probably flaky depending on loads) then it is that side of the buss, somewhere, anywhere, before the panel. Could be in the POCO feed to the meter, or could be the meter itself, or could be in the Service entrance between the meter and the main breaker/main lugs.

First call the POCO and make them tell you its either theirs (somewhere from the transformer to the meter, including both devices), or that its not, in which case it becomes your in house problem.


Charles

 

[ShopWelder]

Thank you all for your input!! Let me start off with an apology for not replying sooner. This is my first use of the Internet since my OP.

Called the POCO this morning, and they swooped in like a bat out of hell. Reported my findings and they had 3 trucks in under 30min. Here's what happened.... They literally cut the lines and said fix the rest. My house is currently powerless, and I am reporting back via hotel wifi.

I don't remember my OP, so apologies if I have repeat info...
The breaker box is in the basement along the rear wall. Feeds through the concrete wall and to the meter box. From there, it drops over 3' underground, drops 10' further behind the house (distance, not depth), and wraps around the property to the front of the house. The pole then shoots up a common power pole to the weather head, where the POCO connects. Total pipe length ~280' to the weather head. When they arrived, they said there was an issue in the underground system. Their responsibility ends at the weather head, making the rest my job to maintain. As a result of this issue, it would be unsafe to keep power to those lines, and so they were cut.

So.... $1226 @ Lowes and $75 in gas later, I've decided to tell this underground concept to eat dirt. New weather head goes on the front garage gable tomorrow, conduit through to the meter. Also, side note, took this opportunity to swap my breaker box from a 100a to a 200a (and yes, I upgraded the wire size today as well). Doing this update does 2 things: makes my house match my neighbors (none have underground wiring), and secondly, next failure, the weather head is on the garage, not the front corner of the property. They'll assume responsibility from the new weather head, making my end of the deal cheaper. Basically, 1 bad hot wire became costly. Now, I'm curious as to whether or not this is contributing to my outrageous electric bill these last few months.

Thanks again for all your help, and I sure hope this helps others who read it. Final thoughts?


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[Junkman]

Good chance that the underground wire became damaged by a rock or something busting through the conduit. When I installed an underground service, I put it down 5 feet, and it is on a 2' bed of sand all around the pipe. I had to put a pull rope into the conduit for the electrical company to pull the wires, since in CT, they are responsible for the wire from the meter socket to the pole. I am responsible for the conduit itself, hence my careful installation. I also put a weather head on the riser on the pole, since they normally just put clay into the top of the conduit to seal it. With a weather head, it becomes rain-tight.
Check to see if you can pull the wire out of the conduit. If it is copper, you can sell it for scrap and recoup some of the costs of the new service. If aluminum wire, it is still salable, but you won't get nearly as much for it.
Also check with your town, because you might need a permit and inspection before the electrical company will put the power back onto the property.

 

[MrMark]

I wonder if you had a partial short to ground in that underground run. The conduit is no doubt full of water and that would act as a conductor to take current to the ground wire if your insulation was compromised on one of the line wires. That would **** some juice.

What was your power bill?


You bought a lot of stuff it seems. Good for you for doing the job. I imagine it was a ton of work.

 

[MrMark]

Good chance that the underground wire became damaged by a rock or something busting through the conduit. When I installed an underground service, I put it down 5 feet, and it is on a 2' bed of sand all around the pipe. I had to put a pull rope into the conduit for the electrical company to pull the wires, since in CT, they are responsible for the wire from the meter socket to the pole. I am responsible for the conduit itself, hence my careful installation. I also put a weather head on the riser on the pole, since they normally just put clay into the top of the conduit to seal it. With a weather head, it becomes rain-tight.
Check to see if you can pull the wire out of the conduit. If it is copper, you can sell it for scrap and recoup some of the costs of the new service. If aluminum wire, it is still salable, but you won't get nearly as much for it.
Also check with your town, because you might need a permit and inspection before the electrical company will put the power back onto the property.

Are you describing an "up the pole" type of "underground service?" Where the utilities still have poles and transformers up on the pole and you basically run underground to the base of the pole and then take a conduit up the pole? That is such a **** system, I can't believe the utilities are allowed to get away with that.

 

[volleyball]

Will the power co. let you do the work? Yo might need a licensed person on site before they turn power back on.
Check before you do all the work only to have to pay someone to redo.

Personally I like the underground wires. Less likely to get broken during a storm.

 

[Mustang51js]

840 feet of copper wire would probably pay for the costs you just put out. If it's aluminum then maybe a couple hundred buck,so might be good to try and pull wires out. At least it will give you an answer about the wire issues also

 

[volleyball]

If you pull it, run a rope through with it so if you decide to use the pipe it will have a rope already.

 

[dogdog]

NVM..... you already found the problem. hence deleting the repeat....

I think power company won't deal with anyone other than a licensed electrician to sign off on the job and present when they turn back on the power. and most licensed electrician here at least will sign off works from their "known" contractor's work....for a nominal fee.

 

[chops101]

Exact same thing happened to me this past Oct.
Friday evening part of the house lights go dim, others did not.
Grab the MM and start checking breakers boxes (2) and subpanel boxes(2).

Found one phase @125v, the other phase waivering @88v.

I have overhead wires at the street, and underground wires from street to house. Call to the power company, and by 1am they find the culprit; oxidized wire connections at the underground junction box at the base of the power pole. He put on his 600v long gloves and cut/dressed those live wires, sitting in wet dew covered grass just as I would cut and dress speaker wires without a care in the world. Much Respect!!

 

[joe_padavano]

I think power company won't deal with anyone other than a licensed electrician to sign off on the job and present when they turn back on the power. and most licensed electrician here at least will sign off works from their "known" contractor's work....for a nominal fee.

This depends on your local rules. Where I live in Northern VA, the homeowner is allowed to perform his own wiring, but it must pass inspection. You don't need to be a licensed electrician if you are working on your own property. I had a similar problem a few years ago where a tree limb took down our service drop, also damaging the weatherhead and associated wiring. I'm on a farm in a rural area, so the meter and house cutoff are actually on a pole with separate aerial wires from the cutoff on the pole to the house. The limb took down this pole and the wires to the house, which was my responsibility. I had to take out a permit, installed the new pole and wiring myself, then had the installation inspected by the county before the PoCo would hook back up. No problems at all.

 

[MrMark]

Same here. In CA all the PoCo cares about is that you got a permit and had it signed off on by the City. Then they will make the final connection. I have a real hard time with local jurisdictions telling someone they have to hire someone to do a job on their own property. The inspection is supposed to take care of any concerns over safety.

 

[Junkman]

Are you describing an "up the pole" type of "underground service?" Where the utilities still have poles and transformers up on the pole and you basically run underground to the base of the pole and then take a conduit up the pole? That is such a **** system, I can't believe the utilities are allowed to get away with that.

What you describe is what I have. Why do you refer to this as a "**** system?

 

[sr71]

hmmm...this was mine...similar symptoms.... some lights worked some didn't... devices surged on/off ....anyway called DEtroit Edison ....crew found this wire and replaced. nailed the wire to the garage wall for memories

 

[MrMark]

What you describe is what I have. Why do you refer to this as a "**** system?

Because you get none of the benefit of a true underground system where everything is underground for all your trouble and expense.

You still have all the poles and ugly mess of wires, you just eliminate an overhead wire to the house that is the least visually offensive (and most maintenance free) part of the system. Thus you have a system that has none of the benefits of a true underground system (asthetics) and you get the burden of having to put in a higher cost and maintenance underground line. Seems like a horrible way to do things to me.

We were required to do that here for new construction because we were eventually going totally underground with everything - no poles - but it still made no sense and the people forced into doing it got less clean installs when the underground did go in than the people with standard overhead drops.

 

[dogdog]

You guys have it easy then, there are nothing but crooks and thieves here........
PITA POOPCO to deal with.... Hope the OP have gotten everything fixed without a hitch.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I wonder if you had a partial short to ground in that underground run. The conduit is no doubt full of water and that would act as a conductor to take current to the ground wire if your insulation was compromised on one of the line wires. That would **** some juice.

What was your power bill?


You bought a lot of stuff it seems. Good for you for doing the job. I imagine it was a ton of work.

Negative batman! His meter is on his house meaning most likely theres no disconnect before the underground portion. This also means the underground feed is a 3-wire feed(theres no ground wire in PoCo drops nor before the first disconnect; ground is established at the house service panel). Furthermore, since the break is before his meter, he wont be paying for any theoretical drain. I say theoretical because if there was a drain/short to a possible ground wire, the line fuses on the transformer would most likely blow or in the case of a 4-wire feed, a breaker would trip!

 

[MrMark]

You are right of course. For some reason I forgot that this was the Poco's feed. I don't understand why the Poco isn't responsible for the underground wires that carry their feed. Here, they pull the underground wires.

A small (high resistance) path to the neutral would blow some of the Poco's power though. It wouldn't have to be a dead short at all. The line fuses wouldn't know the difference. I'll bet the Poco loses a lot of power this way.

 

[volleyball]

Who owns what depends on what the community and the utility work out. If there is a pole, you usually own from the main pole. So the poles to your setback house are usually yours. And your expense. I have a neighbor who got lucky as many decades ago they ran a poco pole down their driveway and id'ed it so the repairs have been on the poco's dime. They were presented with a huge bill and told me before they paid. I mentioned the poco id number and they got the bill dismissed.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

There are many good reasons for underground, and many for overhead.

Overhead lasts for years, and rarely causes trouble. It looks ugly however, and depending on its height and location, can be an issue if you need to drive a semi down the driveway to load/unload, or do other unusual height work with scaffolding, etc.

Another issue or danger with overhead is what happens to it when something such as a tree or tree limb falls on it (or a truck snags it and rips it off the house). During an ice storm several years ago, we had one house right in town, burn down. A large limb came down and ripped the mast and meter off the side of the house, and things shorted and started a fire. It went fast.

The biggest issues with underground are the problems with wire damage due to rocks and deteriorating insulation allowing water into the cable causing corrosion. I've had this happen and probably will again. Second issue is digging. You gotta "call before you dig" and wait for them to come out and mark the wires.

I have the strangest power feeds ever. The entire subdivision is supplied by power entering the back of my yard and running the length of it on one side (about 900 ft), on poles. When it reaches the street it turns 90° and runs down the street to supply the other houses. One of the poles that supports this primary feed is right across the driveway from the house. Now the house power DOES NOT come from that pole. Rather, it is tapped off the pole at the street where the 90° turn is made, drops underground, angles across my yard to the property line where I adjoin my neighbor, the side opposite the main run, and then runs back to a surface transformer situated on the property line between mine and my neighbors house. So now I have primary running up one side, across the front, and down the other side!!!!!!! Finally it comes to a meter on the opposite end of the house from where the pole sits that I mentioned earlier.

This wasn't my idea, I bought it this way.

When I did the shop, the POCO put a transformer on the pole next to the house, dropped down the pole and across the yard to the shop's meter. I didn't want wires stringing across the yard and didn't want a mast on the shop. Only issue was I had to hand dig across a septic line as I didn't know how deep it was. Turns out it was right at 26 inches to the top of the gravel filling the trench around the field line.

Charles

 

[Mustang51js]

Got a phone call last night around 8pm from a customer that lost some power, went and checked it out and tested wires, lost a phase. It's in a town house and underground service to a green transformer box. Told him to call the poco because for one the box is locked and two I don't mess with that. He called me before and the poco had to dig up driveway and fix the problem. He got lucky because his section has the meters on the condo, the building next to it has the meters with a main breaker out by the road so if the same thing happened there it would be on the owner to pay.

 

[Highbeam]

I had this happen to me about three years ago. The one phase would chatter on and off, not a low voltage. It finally died all the way and the power company pulled the meter to verify and then replaced the compression **** joint where the 50 year old aerial line enters my weatherhead on the house. Copper meets aluminum at that point.

Splices seem to be the problem with aerials.