Need some advice from auto mechanics regarding sockets

[slipjointed]

I have worked in an industrial environment for my entire career, and have very little time wrenching on cars, especially foreign. I used to do a lot of stereo installation, but I don't do quite as much nowadays. I do remember that a 9/32" socket was a must for lots of dash work.

My lack of experience isn't so much related to capability, as it is a mixture of lack of a garage up until now, and lately combined with some injuries from an accident. Either way, I plan on doing some more tinkering and light maintenance here and there now that I am moving into a house with a garage.

I'm assembling a 1/4" and 3/8" Wright socket set a la carte, and need some advice on sizes. I don't really want to waste a bunch of money on the metric packaged sets, and end up with a bunch of metric sizes I won't use. They typically are larger and more expensive than the standard sets, and nearly every comprehensive metric set I've seen in a friend's box, has at least one or two sockets that never have left the toolbox.

I have a pretty good sense of what SAE sizes I need, so that isn't quite as much of a mystery for me.

The cars I'll be working on as of now are an 07 F-150, and an 07 Mitsu Outlander. My fiance eventually plans on upgrading to a late model BMW.

Here's my main sticking points:

Would it be more useful to buy just the 1/4" sockets in 12pt, since most small fasteners aren't torqued that hard anyways?

Are there any particular socket sizes in either drive size that would be advisable to get in 12pt, in case I encounter 12pt bolt heads?

Is there any real reason for my 1/4" and 3/8" sets to overlap sizes?

What are common metric socket sizes for the vehicles mentioned above, plus general maintenance?

If you were trying to assemble a set without breaking the bank, what are the sizes that you would die without, and what sizes would be useless?

Do you consider Torx and Hex sockets a must, and if so, what sizes are most desirable in general?


I know this topic has been asked before in different forms, and I have done plenty of searching and reading. That said, I think that my forms of the questions could possibly give me an answer that fits my needs more exactly.

I'd like to thank anyone who replies in advance, as I know this is a bit of a time consuming question to answer.

 

[smogtech]

If you plan on working on Japanese and german cars you will need all the metric sizes. Mitsubishi you will use alot of 10,12,14,17,19 on BMW you will use those including 13,18, 15.

 

[G1GRANDEUR]

German cars, Lots of Torx / Torx Plus / Hex fasteners.

And what smogtech said about the socket sizes.

 

[slipjointed]

If you plan on working on Japanese and german cars you will need all the metric sizes. Mitsubishi you will use alot of 10,12,14,17,19 on BMW you will use those including 13,18, 15.

Thank you for your reply.

What would you say the smallest common size is?

For instance, I know that smaller SAE sizes, such as 9/32, 5/16", and 11/32" are somewhat common, but how often would one run into sizes such as 6, 7, 8, 9mm?

I guess what you are saying is that the continuous numbered sets of Metrics might not be all that bad of an idea?

 

[copterdoctor]

the second you need the missing socket is the moment you'll realize that ala carte' wasn't the way to go.. just my .02
and I'm not trying to be a smartass, but I've seen it happen.. you should buy ala carte' sizes when you find that you set doesn't have the one you need... not the other way around.

 

[dwm]

If you're really looking at maintaining your 2 existing vehicles plus a BMW, you'll want a full set of sockets from 8mm to 19mm as bare minimum. BMW uses the sizes that a lot of companies leave out of their sets of combination wrenches: 16mm (off the top of my head, driveshaft fasteners) and 18mm (suspension bits). Along with a lot of 8mm, 10mm and 13mm. 17mm for lugs. 19mm or 21mm for front strut hats is common.

Given that you won't be making a living with these sockets, they don't necessarily need to be Wright, Proto, Snap-On, et. al. I would recommend 6-point sets; 12-point fasteners aren't common for things a typical owner is going to maintain, and you can buy the singles you need as you encounter them. Grey Pneumatic 81635MRD will pretty much cover your bases for typical maintenance, and can be had for less than $120. This is my 3/8" drive go-to set for foreign cars (including my own BMW and MINI); 7mm to 22mm deep and shallow with no sizes skipped, and a pretty good ratchet included that I don't mind dropping in the dirt or on the concrete.

 

[Danglerb]

Unless you have a huge need to keep everything in one shoebox just buy sets, its typically much cheaper than singles and everything has a few odd sizes on it someplace. 12 pt is fine for most users, and so is 6 pt, not something you need to worry about.

BTW chances are VERY good that you won't be doing anything serious to that future BMW, maybe not even an oil change.

I understand you would like some nice tools, but Harbor Freight was made for you. $200 and you can walk out with pretty much everything you need, but may need to make a couple trips to use more than one 20% off coupon.

Buy the following on sale with a coupon etc.:
Set of metric and SAE sockets.
Stubby swivel head 1/4 ratchet
Composite 3/8 ratchet
3/8 breaker bar
1/2 corded electric impact gun
1/2 SAE and Metric impact sockets
3 lb orange deadblow
SAE and Metric long pattern set of combo wrenches.
1/2 torque wrench
Digital meter, but not the cheapest $2, aim for $10 on sale range.
Plier set.
more but I think you get the idea.

 

[WRX/Z28]

the second you need the missing socket is the moment you'll realize that ala carte' wasn't the way to go.. just my .02
and I'm not trying to be a smartass, but I've seen it happen.. you should buy ala carte' sizes when you find that you set doesn't have the one you need... not the other way around.

X2!

Most of the stuff is cheaper by the set anyway...

Unless you have a huge need to keep everything in one shoebox just buy sets, its typically much cheaper than singles and everything has a few odd sizes on it someplace. 12 pt is fine for most users, and so is 6 pt, not something you need to worry about.

BTW chances are VERY good that you won't be doing anything serious to that future BMW, maybe not even an oil change.

I understand you would like some nice tools, but Harbor Freight was made for you. $200 and you can walk out with pretty much everything you need, but may need to make a couple trips to use more than one 20% off coupon.

Buy the following on sale with a coupon etc.:
Set of metric and SAE sockets.
Stubby swivel head 1/4 ratchet
Composite 3/8 ratchet
3/8 breaker bar
1/2 corded electric impact gun
1/2 SAE and Metric impact sockets
3 lb orange deadblow
SAE and Metric long pattern set of combo wrenches.
1/2 torque wrench
Digital meter, but not the cheapest $2, aim for $10 on sale range.
Plier set.
more but I think you get the idea.

To add to that, Craftsman Evolv was made for you too. Sockets/Ratchet sets in metric/standard combined are $15 for 1/4", $25 for 3/8. Good quality stuff that populates my 2nd box.

 

[earlthegoat2]

Ive had the 26 piece Sunex shallow 1/2 drive impact set for nary a week now. It has every size from 10mm-36mm and only skips 31mm.

I have used every socket in that set at least once so far. I work on a huge variety of foreign built lawn mowers and tractors though.

 

[franzdom]

BMW also uses 6mm, 5.5mm, 16mm, 17, 18, 19, pretty much everything.

 

[bimmerZ5]

If you're really looking at maintaining your 2 existing vehicles plus a BMW, you'll want a full set of sockets from 8mm to 19mm as bare minimum. BMW uses the sizes that a lot of companies leave out of their sets of combination wrenches: 16mm (off the top of my head, driveshaft fasteners) and 18mm (suspension bits). Along with a lot of 8mm, 10mm and 13mm. 17mm for lugs. 19mm or 21mm for front strut hats is common.

Given that you won't be making a living with these sockets, they don't necessarily need to be Wright, Proto, Snap-On, et. al. I would recommend 6-point sets; 12-point fasteners aren't common for things a typical owner is going to maintain, and you can buy the singles you need as you encounter them. Grey Pneumatic 81635MRD will pretty much cover your bases for typical maintenance, and can be had for less than $120. This is my 3/8" drive go-to set for foreign cars (including my own BMW and MINI); 7mm to 22mm deep and shallow with no sizes skipped, and a pretty good ratchet included that I don't mind dropping in the dirt or on the concrete.

i completely agree with this recommendation as far as working on the BMWs. 7mm - 22mm is a good range that will pretty much cover any bolt you'll run into. my "gut feel" is that a lot of the bolts are odd number sizes (e.g., 11mm, 13mm, 17mm, 19mm), but you'll run into the others too. buying a set that covers that range is going to be cheaper than buying them piece meal.

I would add to the above:

1. 36mm socket - the last few past generation of non-M motors used this size for the oil filter cap.

2. a few allen sockets like 6mm, 7mm, 14mm. (maybe some others?) you'll end up using these when you do a brake job, need to replace any of the Hall effect type sensors and the last (14mm) is often used for the diff drain/fill plugs.

 

[RKA]

I have an Audi, not a BMW, but I do find a pattern in the bolt sizes used and I think there is something in the beer over there.... I have a feeling all the german brands will fall in line. Unfortunately, the the engineers get bored with anything that has six sides, so there is the assortment of torx, XZN (somewhat uncommon). I'll take a stab at what I've seen.
1/4" drive: 8, 10mm
3/8" drive: 13, 15, 16 (shallow will probably be fine)
1/2" drive: 17, 18, 19 (all deep and shallow socket)
Allen: 6, 8, 10mm
Torx: T20, T25, T27, T30
Flare nut wrench: find out what your brake bleeder screws are and get that size
Oil filter: 36mm shallow (I believe you can find this in an extra shallow with a 3/8" drive intended for oil filter canisters, I got a standard 1/2" impact socket which I regret but still works)
Some kind of software to pull codes off the computer. I have one specific to Audi that gives me access to tons of things outside OBDII stuff (generic readers won't let you do this), not sure what the BMW guys use.

The above will cover 75% or more of your day to day, but you WILL encounter other stuff as you go. I do agree with the others to just buy the complete sets. I believe in buying tools for a lifetime, and you never know where else it will come in handy. Having a complete selection of sockets on hand reduces the aggravation (at least for me). But, if I had to choose between an incomplete "set" (gaps between sizes) and a carefully chosen group purchased individually (for a single purpose), I would do the later. I don't know who comes up with those "sets", but it seems they always the important one out. I'm also not sure why I think I wouldn't do the same! ;-)

 

[diesel research]

The logic that "1/4" drive isn't torqued much and doesn't need 6pt" is partially false.

A better argument is how few 12pt bolts you will encounter using a 1/4" drive tool AND more importantly, the fact that smaller fasteners actually seem more prone to rounding due to smaller surface areas.

If I could only have one set in 6pt it would definitely be 1/4. Using your logic of torque and rounding, one would assume that your largest 1/2" drive sizes would be more prone to failure. I have found that mostly untrue, and a lot of my 1/2" drive encounters are over 1" AND on rusty fasteners. I cannot recall rounding many if any bolts over 9/16 or 14-15mm. I did round a chrome snap on 9/16 12pt socket, but that was multiple operator error and the fastener survived fine. (impact, no heat for red locktite, off centered angle)

Now surely if the fastener is so worn and corroded that it's shape is not recognizable, it is possible. Then again, there are more appropriate tools for those cases.

 

[diesel research]

BTW, some of those "lesser useful sizes" actually come in quite useful on worn fasteners or incorrectly machined fasteners.

I deal with some stainless 7/16 (hex size) fasteners that always seem to be produced undersize. 7/16 provides a sloppy fit while 11mm is just tight enough. 11mm is a size I personally would barely ever use in a SAE dominant shop.

Once in a while encounter a 1/2" 12pt bolt that is worn down from previous off center repairs and a 12mm 12pt can be kind of "hammered" in place. Yet another size I don't use in my daily encounters.

As a matter of fact, the nature of my repairs should rarely ever require a metric socket, yet due to wear and tolerances, often does.

 

[greybeard]

It has been my experience that buying anything one piece at a time will cost a lot more than just buying a complete set.

 

[diesel research]

There are some exclusions to the set deals. Many tool trucks charge same either way, or in some instances a lot of singles are available for clearance type prices. Examples includes colt_zantrap or epstein's for wright sockets.

Then again, quite a few sets have a lot of holes or excluded sizes, so you will probably end up adding a good bit of singles in place when you consider various combination of 6-8-12 pt, deep/shallow, various drive sizes, and plenty of other bit type drivers (hex torx torx plus tamperproof xzn ect ect)

 

[CCShopgirl]

Hi,
were you looking for these items? WANTED: Snap on SOEX-30,28,24,20,18,14,12,10
SOEXM-13,17,18
XSM-1314a,910a,89a
OXI-22b,18b,14b,
RXFS810b
My cousin owned a Auto body shop plus he did repairs for over 35 years and recently became ill /had to close and is selling off a good part of his snap on tools/ boxes etc .. he has a lot .. if you are let me know and what they are sockets? wrenches? and if you need anything else .. I can check in a couple of days .. thanks CC

 

[DodgeZ]

you can get this set for 100 bucks if you are in the craftsman club.

http://www.craftsman.com/shc/s/p_10155_12602_00933200000P?intcmp=cm_deals_july2011-top

 

[Carl B]

I have a more or less complete set of Snap-On sockets in 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2". Plus a set of Williams Sockets - but 9 times out of 10 times - I'll grab my Craftsmen Laser Etched set - simply because I can see the sizes!!

As far as precision fit on nuts/bolts I don't really see any difference between the SO, Williams, CMan sockets.

179 pc Easy To Read Set $179.99 on sale - about a buck a socket
http://www.craftsman.com/shc/s/p_10...me=Socket+Sets&prdNo=5&blockNo=5&blockType=L5
It is important to be able to see the size!!
FWIW,
Carl B.

 

[WRX/Z28]

Hi,
were you looking for these items? WANTED: Snap on SOEX-30,28,24,20,18,14,12,10
SOEXM-13,17,18
XSM-1314a,910a,89a
OXI-22b,18b,14b,
RXFS810b
My cousin owned a Auto body shop plus he did repairs for over 35 years and recently became ill /had to close and is selling off a good part of his snap on tools/ boxes etc .. he has a lot .. if you are let me know and what they are sockets? wrenches? and if you need anything else .. I can check in a couple of days .. thanks CC

I think you're referring to my signature. Please PM me instead of cluttering this thread.

 

[pipsters]

I have a more or less complete set of Snap-On sockets in 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2". Plus a set of Williams Sockets - but 9 times out of 10 times - I'll grab my Craftsmen Laser Etched set - simply because I can see the sizes!!

As far as precision fit on nuts/bolts I don't really see any difference between the SO, Williams, CMan sockets.

179 pc Easy To Read Set $179.99 on sale - about a buck a socket
http://www.craftsman.com/shc/s/p_10...me=Socket+Sets&prdNo=5&blockNo=5&blockType=L5
It is important to be able to see the size!!
FWIW,
Carl B.

That set has a lot of waste. 10 sockets each of 9-14mm (seriously?!?) and 6+ of 15-20. Just not needed.

 

[Carl B]

That set has a lot of waste. 10 sockets each of 9-14mm (seriously?!?) and 6+ of 15-20. Just not needed.

If you believe that you can use Deep Wells or Short Sockets for everything and you don't need both - If you believe that you can use either 6 point or 12 point sockets for everything and don't need both. If you believe that you can use 3/8" drive for everything and you don't need 1/4" drive sets - then for you - all the others may seem like a waste. True - you may not need them...

Personally I like having the right tool for the job. Deep Well's, Short Sockets, 6 and 12 points, 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" drive sets.

I count SEVEN 9mm sockets in that set in that set by the way - not 10
3 in 3/8" drive:
6 & 12 point
6 point deep

2 in 1/4" drive
6 point
6 point deep

2 in 1/2" drive
12 point
6 point deep

What you consider waste - I consider versatility. Each socket length, point size and drive size has its use, in certain situations.

One order - one set - and the Original Poster will have pretty much whatever he needs, when he runs into it as far as sockets go. Plus one trip to the store or one shipping charge. Plus in the Easy To Read form - and he is ready to go forward.

At a buck a socket - if he never needs one or two of them - it really isn't earth shaking.

FWIW,
Carl B.

 

[smalltruck]

That set has a lot of waste. 10 sockets each of 9-14mm (seriously?!?) and 6+ of 15-20. Just not needed.

Are you saying that more than one or two of a size is a waste?

In 1/2 bolt head size I think I have about 10 of them. I have 6 and 12 point in 3/8ths and half inch short deep and mid-length. Chrome and impact. Don't use the chrome ones much anymore it's mostly the impact ones and I use the short and deep impact 6 points the most.

 

[redman43]

OP, as many have already mentioned, don't do a full set a la carte. It'll cost you too much $$$. Get yourself a decent sized set that contains most of the sizes you're loking for and then fill in the holes a la carte.

 

[DodgeZ]

OP, as many have already mentioned, don't do a full set a la carte. It'll cost you too much $$$. Get yourself a decent sized set that contains most of the sizes you're loking for and then fill in the holes a la carte.

If the 100 dollar set I posted is too much then he just needs to go to HF.

 

[pipsters]

If you believe that you can use Deep Wells or Short Sockets for everything and you don't need both - If you believe that you can use either 6 point or 12 point sockets for everything and don't need both. If you believe that you can use 3/8" drive for everything and you don't need 1/4" drive sets - then for you - all the others may seem like a waste. True - you may not need them...

Personally I like having the right tool for the job. Deep Well's, Short Sockets, 6 and 12 points, 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" drive sets.

I count SEVEN 9mm sockets in that set in that set by the way - not 10
3 in 3/8" drive:
6 & 12 point
6 point deep

2 in 1/4" drive
6 point
6 point deep

2 in 1/2" drive
12 point
6 point deep

What you consider waste - I consider versatility. Each socket length, point size and drive size has its use, in certain situations.

One order - one set - and the Original Poster will have pretty much whatever he needs, when he runs into it as far as sockets go. Plus one trip to the store or one shipping charge. Plus in the Easy To Read form - and he is ready to go forward.

At a buck a socket - if he never needs one or two of them - it really isn't earth shaking.

FWIW,
Carl B.

For some it's not about the buck a socket - it's about efficient use of space. I own the Craftsman 299 piece socket set (big brother to your link) and am in the process of paring it down.

I bought it basically for the 1/2" sockets, since buying them as even sets was cost prohibitive. However what I've determined, after examining typical usage of sockets, is the 3/8" drive 6mm-22mm shallow and 10-19mm deep will pretty much do everything I need outside of my 1/2" impact set that covers my axle nut and crank pulley bolts.

I would challenge anyone to show me where a 12 point socket would do the job better than a 6 point socket on a bolt outside of a special case 12 point bolt - for which you can buy the single 12 point. For me it was a 17mm. Completely pointless to have duplicates of all those 6 and 12 point sockets in 1/4" and 1/2" drive.

 

[pipsters]

Are you saying that more than one or two of a size is a waste?

In 1/2 bolt head size I think I have about 10 of them. I have 6 and 12 point in 3/8ths and half inch short deep and mid-length. Chrome and impact. Don't use the chrome ones much anymore it's mostly the impact ones and I use the short and deep impact 6 points the most.

See what I mean???

 

[pipsters]

If the 100 dollar set I posted is too much then he just needs to go to HF.

I don't think it's about the money, his finance is going to be buying a late model BMW, I mean really. Unless she calls the shots....

 

[bimmerZ5]

I don't think it's about the money, his finance is going to be buying a late model BMW, I mean really. Unless she calls the shots....

BMW's are not expensive to maintain, especially if he intends to do most of it himself. OE parts are available online for about as much as OE parts cost for Toyotas or Hondas, so long as he/she doesn't get a "M" motor. The BMW dealership labor rates are ridiculous ($150-$170/hr here in socal) so by DIYing he'll save on the bulk of the cost of ownership.

in addition to mechanic's tools, I'd also recommend a multi-meter and a decent soldering gun. electronic component failures are the most annoying on BMWs and replacing entire electronic components get expensive. being able to fix fractured solder joints will save a lot of $$$.

 

[humber2]

I don't think it's about the money, his finance is going to be buying a late model BMW, I mean really. Unless she calls the shots....

I've heard that BMW stands for "Buy More Wrenches".....

 

[4x4gearhead]

I would just get sets, even that f-150 is mostly metric nowadays theres no telling what you might need.

 

[Buckgnarly]

I would challenge anyone to show me where a 12 point socket would do the job better than a 6 point socket on a bolt outside of a special case 12 point bolt - for which you can buy the single 12 point. For me it was a 17mm. Completely pointless to have duplicates of all those 6 and 12 point sockets in 1/4" and 1/2" drive.

Not to challenge or start a ******* match, but what about positiong when using a breaker bar? Could "clock" the socket to move the swing of the breaker.

 

[smalltruck]

See what I mean???

You are right until the impact socket won't clear the $1100 EGR valve. But the chrome one did.

Ok I admit I have an addiction to tools... but it's cheaper than beer, drugs, or really fast women.

The reality of it is as a pro I use a small amount of stuff in the box a majority of the time. But the minority times I need that one socket, I really really need it. I have bought sockets to do 3 bolts on one special kind of job, and thats all I ever use them on. Side note to the heavy duty techs, why, WHY, did Detroit put 12 point 5/16 headed bolts in a deep hole on series 60 oil coolers that only a 1/4 in drive socket clears?

 

[jjjrmx5]

Thank you for your reply.

What would you say the smallest common size is?

For instance, I know that smaller SAE sizes, such as 9/32, 5/16", and 11/32" are somewhat common, but how often would one run into sizes such as 6, 7, 8, 9mm?

What you need to understand is that a bolt's head size (meaning the size of the socket needed to fit teh bolt head) can vary between car mfgr which is really a result of what is spec'd by the design engineer and what is available.

I see this almost daily.

Metric bolts come in M5, M6, M8, etc. (a very simple system mind you) BUT, an M6 x 1.00 can have a head that is 8mm, 9mm, 10mm, 11mm, etc. ---whatever is spec'd or whatever teh mfgr. deems correct for that application and the supplier sources or can source. There is no one size to head spec worldwide thus why you need a multitude of sockets to fit an unknown size fastener.

As others have mentioned, you really need the whole set. And prolly more if doing a lot of work.

 

[franzdom]

Not to challenge or start a ******* match, but what about positiong when using a breaker bar? Could "clock" the socket to move the swing of the breaker.

I was thinking about this recently, as a non-pro you can turn the 6pt 90 degrees to get it started and get the 12 point alternative position.

 

[pipsters]

Not to challenge or start a ******* match, but what about positiong when using a breaker bar? Could "clock" the socket to move the swing of the breaker.

Sounds like a great argument, until you realize if you are using a breaker bar you are well already out in the open anyway. Personally I've never come in a situation that has required a 12 point socket besides a 12 point bolt, and I never, ever use 12 point sockets on 6 point bolts. Do you?

Plus I remember on here, a pictorial, showing a 6 point socket still offers the same amount of points as a 12 point, just by rotating it.

 

[WhiteTrash]

I am a big fan of 6 point sockets. But there have been more than a few times that I have needed the thin wall of the 12 point to access the fastener. Having deep and shallow is also pretty much required.

But if you ultimately wanted to get rid of duplicated and streamline everything, then get rid of the 3/8 drive stuff. Everything in 3/8" can be covered by 1/4" and 1/2" drive. Instead of getting a 3/8 drive that covers a decent range in the middle, and then still needing 1/4" for the smaller stuff and 1/2" for the larger stuff. The 1/4" will cover the needed small stuff into the middle stuff. The 1/2" will cover the big stuff down to the middle stuff. And there is only an overlap of a couple of sizes depending on manufacturer.
I know it sounds foolish, and I would never do it. But I also like having the right when I need it.
Another benefit of having multiples of the same size is when I need to access the nut and bolt. They are often the same size until you get into some of the bigger 1/2" stuff. Granted, I could just have two 6pt sets, but is that not more of a waste, when I could have a 6 and 12 and a little more versatility?
Another benefit of having a set is time savings. When you do run across a size that you didn't think about (and it will happen), then you are at a stand still until you get that size. Often, this means you now have a vehicle down. Now you have to run out and try to find it one short notice as open stock, order it online and wait for it to arrive, or reassemble what you just did while waiting for the correct size and then start all over again.
Another option which often happens but is ill advised, is to use a socket that doesn't fit in order to complete the job. Now you are risking damaging the fastener and making it harder even if you did have the proper tools. This is also when they start to slip and you start hurting yourself more.
Save yourself the headache, buy a set in 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2". If you really just want a pieced together set of higher quality sockets, the buy the harbor freight sets and replace what you use for the Wright sockets. Then you will still have the cheap set for those unforeseen needs, but have the ones you want for the common ones.

 

[franzdom]

Sounds like a great argument, until you realize if you are using a breaker bar you are well already out in the open anyway. Personally I've never come in a situation that has required a 12 point socket besides a 12 point bolt, and I never, ever use 12 point sockets on 6 point bolts. Do you?

Plus I remember on here, a pictorial, showing a 6 point socket still offers the same amount of points as a 12 point, just by rotating it.

I use a breaker bar a lot when not all the way in the open, like lower shock bolts when car is on jack stands. The other point you made is valid though, see post immediately above.

 

[franzdom]

I am a big fan of 6 point sockets. But there have been more than a few times that I have needed the thin wall of the 12 point to access the fastener. Having deep and shallow is also pretty much required.

How is 12 point thinner than 6 point

 

[WhiteTrash]

And I don't use a breaker bar when I am out in the open. Only when needing torque in confined areas to save the ratchet and my hands. If I am out in the open, I will just use an impact.