Need some contractor advice...

[bluesman2a]

OK folks I'm getting ready to get into what I think may be a huge frikken mess. I've been having problems with my contractor on my garage-build. We started off slowly (wrote 1st check back at the end of May, and we're JUST now pouring foundations for the retaining wall). Slow I can handle, but as of this week, the budget for my retaining wall has gone out of control.

The wall is sub'ed out to another company under my contractor's permit. I clearly stated that no work was to be done without written estimates. Originally the wall was spec'd at 110 long @ $95 per foot. Then we went to $130 per foot. As of yesterday we are at nearly that budget in just rebar and concrete for the foundation, this is not including labor or concrete for the wall itself (10' high). They poured 48 YARDS of concrete for JUST foundation of the wall alone. Without getting any further into the financial details, the wall is already over 50% over estimates and all I have is a foundation in a big hole. All estimates were from the wall sub to the contractor, the only thing I have in writing was the $95 per foot (on signed contract).

The contractor at this point has become uncommunicative. He's not returned any of my calls since before the pour yesterday, I was supposed to meet him at the site yesterday, and he didn't show between when I got there at 1:00 and this morning when I left for work. I've left repeated voicemails with his office as well as email saying we need to work this out. I've been clear that nobody is getting a DIME for anything until I have a clear-cut estimate of current expenditures and what we will need to complete the wall (and he paid for the concrete yesterday, so he's holding the larger debt at this point based on what's been delivered).

I've been keeping a log of all site activity, phone calls, discussions, and contacts.

On one side, I want to just want to tell everybody to pack their tools and go home, cause this ***** we haven't been within even 30% an ANY estimate so far. On the other side, I think what I'm asking is reasonable and I just want the project to move forward: tell me what you will do, when you will do it, how much it will cost, and then follow-through on those things.

So the question is: what would you do here? If I do tell them to take a hike, how do I ensure a clean break and protect myself against mechanical leins and the like? I REALLY am hoping this doesn't get all legal and stuff.

 

[Vicious_Cycle]

I hate to say it, but it's gonna "get all legal and stuff".

Document everything to the max.

Good luck.

 

[JMURiz]

This sounds familiar to me. As long as you have everything documented (contracts, time/date of work, canceled checks, etc) you should be OK.

Question, did you you have a lien waver listed on the contract you signed with the GC, so that subs can't come put a lien on your property?

I hope so, I didn't and am dealing with a similar issue myself.

You can also fine a complaint with the GC to your local county/city that has the permits. This might help if you end up going to court.

I'm no lawyer but I'd say that you only have to pay for stuff that was signed off and approved by you, overages are just bonuses they have to eat if not approved.

Best of luck.

 

[bmwpower]

Definitely get a lawyer. At this point it would be worth the $500 or whatever it would cost to have some piece of mind that at least you're doing the right thing. It might not get you the result you wanted, but at least you did what you should have.

Contractors ****!

 

[bluesman2a]

Question, did you you have a lien waver listed on the contract you signed with the GC, so that subs can't come put a lien on your property?

This is something my father sent me recently. I thought this was signed at the END of the project, is this something I should push to have the contractor sign NOW?

 

[bluesman2a]

Second question here on the lien waver: once we get it signed, you mentioned getting it "listed", what needs to happen once I have the document completed?

 

[JMURiz]

I just meant was the waiver on the contract you signed with the GC, sometimes they are...sometimes they aren't.
If you can get it signed now that'd be great!!! Hopefully you'll have better luck getting the GC to sign it than I did, mine totally flaked, so now I'm dealing with the lien subpoena

 

[Junkman]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but an "estimate" is just that. It is about as worthless as having an open ended contract. It is unfortunate, but most people only learn these things after the fact, where as the people that have been previously burned, learned the lesson. Most people only build once, so the lesson learned doesn't do them any good. I suggest that you cut your losses, and pay for the work that has been done, providing that you get a full release from everyone that has done any work on the project. Then, get contract prices for the rest of the work. If you have a contract price, then they must hold to that price. Just make sure that everything in the contract is exactly what you want done, because once you start deviating from the contract, they can charge you additional money. Also have an attorney involved in the releases, and future contracts. It cost less to have a competent attorney read and advise on a contract, than it is to have him involved after the dispute is in progress.

 

[Aceman]

I'm just curious, did you check this guy's references? He sounds like a conartist giving you such a low price WITHOUT a signed contract. If it took 50% more material than figured he wasn't even close. He's either a rookie or more than likely, someone just out to get your money.

 

[bluesman2a]

I'm just curious, did you check this guy's references? He sounds like a conartist giving you such a low price WITHOUT a signed contract. If it took 50% more material than figured he wasn't even close. He's either a rookie or more than likely, someone just out to get your money.

Yep, checked his references, the only negative thing was that one of the 5 previous customers I contacted mentioned that his project was slow, so we put in language in the contract for a specific end date (2.5 months from permit date) and financial penalties. So then he just drug his feet on getting the permit.

Clarification here, the price ($95 per foot) is ON the contract.

 

[chicane]

OK folks I'm getting ready to get into what I think may be a huge frikken mess. I've been having problems with my contractor on my garage-build. We started off slowly (wrote 1st check back at the end of May, and we're JUST now pouring foundations for the retaining wall). Slow I can handle, but as of this week, the budget for my retaining wall has gone out of control.
....

The contractor at this point has become uncommunicative. He's not returned any of my calls since before the pour yesterday, I was supposed to meet him at the site yesterday, and he didn't show between when I got there at 1:00 and this morning when I left for work. I've left repeated voicemails with his office as well as email saying we need to work this out. I've been clear that nobody is getting a DIME for anything until I have a clear-cut estimate of current expenditures and what we will need to complete the wall (and he paid for the concrete yesterday, so he's holding the larger debt at this point based on what's been delivered).

I've been keeping a log of all site activity, phone calls, discussions, and contacts.

.....

I REALLY am hoping this doesn't get all legal and stuff.

I feel for you brother. I have been where you are and it is no fun let me tell you. I don't know how you structured your contract with your contractor but not knowing any of the particulars I would defiantly recommend documenting everything. Unfortunately the good old not returning phone calls' or 'giving vague answers' are tried and true contractor ploys. The next time I sign a contract with a guy like this i am going to specify that he has to return my phone calls withing 24 hours and he must give me a valid answer to my legitimate questions or the contract is null and void.

 

[chicane]

Yep, checked his references, the only negative thing was that one of the 5 previous customers I contacted mentioned that his project was slow, so we put in language in the contract for a specific end date (2.5 months from permit date) and financial penalties. So then he just drug his feet on getting the permit.

Another great point and something else that I found out the hard way. The next time that I sign a contract I will put in a clause that if the building permit is not secured with a "fixed but reasonable" period of time, such as 15 or 30 days, then the contract is, again, null and void.

 

[Junkman]

I feel for you brother. I have been where you are and it is no fun let me tell you. I don't know how you structured your contract with your contractor but not knowing any of the particulars I would defiantly recommend documenting everything. Unfortunately the good old not returning phone calls' or 'giving vague answers' are tried and true contractor ploys. The next time I sign a contract with a guy like this i am going to specify that he has to return my phone calls withing 24 hours and he must give me a valid answer to my legitimate questions or the contract is null and void.

Another great point and something else that I found out the hard way. The next time that I sign a contract I will put in a clause that if the building permit is not secured with a "fixed but reasonable" period of time, such as 15 or 30 days, then the contract is, again, null and void.

With caveats such as this, the next time, you might find that no contractor wants to deal with you and that you will need to become your own builder if you want anything built.

 

[chicane]

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With caveats such as this, the next time, you might find that no contractor wants to deal with you and that you will need to become your own builder if you want anything built.

So be it. Who do these people work for? Who pays for their trucks, their insurance, their mortgage. These caveats are not at all unreasonable. These people need to learn who is in charge and who is paying the bills from day one and any contractor who isn't willing to accept these terms isn't the right guy for my job.

 

[walleyed]

You may need to get legal help but you should give your contractor a chance to work this all out. It has only been 1 day, he may be very busy. I'm not trying to make excuses for him but give him chance.
You said you gave him money in late May. Was this just a down payment to get you on the schedule 5 or 10%? or more? Some states only allow a maximum of 10% at contract signing.

When did the contract say they would start work? Or more importantly when would it be finished?

Does the contract have any wording in it to allow him to charge more?
If your contract states $95 per ft that is all you should have to pay. Where did the $130 come from? Did you agree to it already?
It is standard practice to use subs for work you can not or do not usually do. That price is between the sub and your contractor.

Try to work it out first - keep records of all communication
Get legal advice second - when lawyers get involved it can be very costly if it ends up in court.

I am a contractor and I've seen this stuff over and over again. I hate contractors that take advantage of people or are just incompetent. They give us all a bad name
Wally

 

[walleyed]

Chicane,
I would expect any legitimate contractor would not sign anything like that and any that did would be exactly the type you don't want in the first place. I know I wouldn't sign it.
Just my .02

Wally

 

[chicane]

Chicane,
I would expect any legitimate contractor would not sign anything like that and any that did would be exactly the type you don't want in the first place. I know I wouldn't sign it.
Just my .02

Wally

Why not exactly? I myself am a contractor (IT). And accountability, communication with my customers and benchmarks (goals for completing said job) are all par for the course. I don't see why a guy building a garage should be offered an exception to these basic tenets of engineering.

 

[walleyed]

"The next time I sign a contract with a guy like this i am going to specify that he has to return my phone calls withing 24 hours and he must give me a valid answer to my legitimate questions or the contract is null and void."

Return a phone call within 24 hours is reasonable but stuff happens. What if for some reason he couldn't? ie family emergency, out of town whatever.
Who says what is or isn't a legitimate question or a valid answer?

Your contractor is supposed to be the expert. Your "valid" question may mean squat to him or the project.

"The next time that I sign a contract I will put in a clause that if the building permit is not secured with a "fixed but reasonable" period of time, such as 15 or 30 days, then the contract is, again, null and void."

I don't know about where you live but in some areas it can take months to get permits. I know how long it would take here but I wouldn't let a contract be null and void because the building dept is slow for whatever reason. ie somebody is on holidays or off sick a few weeks in your building dept or there are issues with zoning for the proposed building.

Some contractors are slow moving and some aren't. I think all contracts need to have a projected finish date but even these can be hard to do at times. You can have a run of bad weather or a supplier problem.Stuff happens
Usually the guy thats slow is very busy and he is very busy because he is good.

 

[Lloydthumper]

I would not say a estimate is worthless it just has to be in writing I am not sure of the state laws in GA but in NC if Estimate goes over 15% with out additional work than what was quoted your not responcible Been there done that If you have a contract stating what was to be done and pricing and that including the matrial cost didn't sky rocket like concrete jumping $50 a yard or something the over run on cost is the contractors problem. Him subing out the work and you not getting a lien waiver. You still have a case it is just with the original contractor. Just my 2 cents.

 

[chicane]

"The next time I sign a contract with a guy like this i am going to specify that he has to return my phone calls withing 24 hours and he must give me a valid answer to my legitimate questions or the contract is null and void."

Return a phone call within 24 hours is reasonable but stuff happens. What if for some reason he couldn't? ie family emergency, out of town whatever.
Who says what is or isn't a legitimate question or a valid answer?

Your contractor is supposed to be the expert. Your "valid" question may mean squat to him or the project.

"The next time that I sign a contract I will put in a clause that if the building permit is not secured with a "fixed but reasonable" period of time, such as 15 or 30 days, then the contract is, again, null and void."

I don't know about where you live but in some areas it can take months to get permits. I know how long it would take here but I wouldn't let a contract be null and void because the building dept is slow for whatever reason. ie somebody is on holidays or off sick a few weeks in your building dept or there are issues with zoning for the proposed building.

Some contractors are slow moving and some aren't. I think all contracts need to have a projected finish date but even these can be hard to do at times. You can have a run of bad weather or a supplier problem.Stuff happens
Usually the guy thats slow is very busy and he is very busy because he is good.

We could work out some of the details so they are not burdensome to a legitimate contractor but you and i know that some contractors just refuse to return ANY phone calls and that is just wrong. And when you can get a hold of them and ask what the ETA for getting the roofing or the siding done and they tell you "I don't know", that again is wrong. Anything is better than "I don't know".

If the contractor knows what he is doing and has all of his ducks in a row then 10 days is the typical turn-around on an addition like a garage. Maybe if you live in the bureaucratic NE it would take months but whatever the average for a typical addition in your area (and you as a contract should know that info) that would be the number in the contract. We have a website down here (for homeowners who are informed), and you can actually see step by step, all of the permits as they go thru each stage and you can see how long it takes for permits to get issued. Down here 30 days is more than fair. You just can't give an infinite amount of time. A good contractor will put a projected length of time to finish with an exception for inclement weather.

I have had contractors that said they wouldn't work based on time tables, I said...bye.

 

[walleyed]

You are right that some are just not very good at listening to what the home owner wants and responding to real questions. I don't get the guys that don't return phone calls or keep the customer informed.
I figure these guys are just making me look good. I like open communication both ways.
There are also people that call you constantly asking silly questions about nothing. They can drive a contractor nuts. I usually ask them to write down questions and pin them at them up on job site for me to review when I'm there and then I take the time to answer them in writing.

I have no problem with time tables but everything needs to adjust to the circumstances of the day. I like to see a expected start date and completion date. These are rough but try to keep them within reason. What is reasonable is the problem. To me a week behind on a simple garage or addition is reasonable but I try to keep people informed

Most permits for a garage can be had here in a day or 2 once the plans are drawn and rubber stamped but some areas are slower. I wish we had the ability to apply for permits online and follow the stages

 

[chicane]

You are right that some are just not very good at listening to what the home owner wants and responding to real questions. I don't get the guys that don't return phone calls or keep the customer informed.
I figure these guys are just making me look good. I like open communication both ways.
There are also people that call you constantly asking silly questions about nothing.

Now I'll agree with that. You can't have people calling you 10 times a day to see how the work is progressing. I hardly called my guy at all. I mean hardly ever. So I expect the few times I do call to have that call returned.

They can drive a contractor nuts. I usually ask them to write down questions and pin them at them up on job site for me to review when I'm there and then I take the time to answer them in writing.

I have done that to but that is providing he shows up at the job site in a timely manner.

I have no problem with time tables but everything needs to adjust to the circumstances of the day. I like to see a expected start date and completion date. These are rough but try to keep them within reason. What is reasonable is the problem. To me a week behind on a simple garage or addition is reasonable but I try to keep people informed

That is the key. Keeping people informed. I would understand if you were a week or two behind if you just called me and told me you got ******* with another job that took longer than you expected. No biggie, but if you don't call me, don't show up for weeks on end and then are puzzled that I am upset, gimmie a break.

Most permits for a garage can be had here in a day or 2 once the plans are drawn and rubber stamped but some areas are slower. I wish we had the ability to apply for permits online and follow the stages

Oh, and back to the "family problems" thing. I don't know how many times a contractor has used his personal problems as an excuse for not showing up or completing a job. Simply playing on people's natural tendency to forgive based on family issues is both cynical and kind of pathetic...and I'm not falling for it.

 

[bluesman2a]

That is the key. Keeping people informed. I would understand if you were a week or two behind if you just called me and told me you got ******* with another job that took longer than you expected. No biggie, but if you don't call me, don't show up for weeks on end and then are puzzled that I am upset, gimmie a break.

Now see, that's what I'm talking about. If somebody said to me, I need about 3 weeks to slear my calendar, I can start your project on date X, that works a WHOLE lot better with me than "Oh darn, I can't make it because of <insert excuse here>". I even made a point of telling this guy, do NOT just take my check and disappear/go silent.

You may need to get legal help but you should give your contractor a chance to work this all out. It has only been 1 day, he may be very busy. I'm not trying to make excuses for him but give him chance.
You said you gave him money in late May. Was this just a down payment to get you on the schedule 5 or 10%? or more? Some states only allow a maximum of 10% at contract signing.
<snip>
Try to work it out first - keep records of all communication
Get legal advice second - when lawyers get involved it can be very costly if it ends up in court.

Agreed. I'm not looking to go to court. I would consider that a complete and total failure of my project. Chances are is he doesn't want it, I certainly would just prefer to have a retaining wall and garage for a reasonable price. I've managed to talk to him and have allowed him some time to collect his information and come back with a final price for the wall. Once I see that, then we will decide what happens and what we can work out. Now what I have done is put down logs of all communication in the case we do have to go through this later.

As for the initial payment, that was a check for 20% of the project cost. So you may see my concern that he's sitting on my check with nothing for me to show over 2 months while he "gets the permits". Side note here: None of the dates on the permit process (our county has them all online) support his claims, but I haven't called him out on that... yet.

 

[walleyed]

Bluesman,
How is the contract open to allow him to charge whatever he wants for the retaining wall?

Maybe have someone else finish the wall and have your contractor just do the garage...I dunno....Sounds like you may have a bad contractor or one that doesn’t care or maybe he is in over his head. I don't understand how he came up with the $95 then $130 and now who knows how much $ for the wall. Before I would quote something like that I would get firm quotes from the sub. Its not like a couple hundred $ difference..

I hope it all works out for you.. Good luck

ps.. I'm working a job right now that has some similarities. Customer hired his own concrete sub that made a complete mess of the job and charged him at least double what it should have been. Walls are not square and wider then they should have been. They sit out 8 to 16" past the frame of the house. Anyway I feel bad for the owners and agreed I would fix it up as best we could for materials only. I had the inspector out and between him and myself we are arming the owner with ammo to take this guy to court. Oh he didn't even pull permits for the structural work he did.....