Need some Roofing Advice

[Colin Len]

Moved into my 1st home about 1.5yrs ago and am looking to have the roof replaced as the current one is falling apart (but no leaks spotted yet). I'm completely new to roofs (and hiring people to work on a home in general) so was hoping some of the more knowledgeable here could give me some pointers - stuff to look out for? Is there anything I should make sure they do? Make sure they don't do?...etc

I've received 2 bids but will get at least 2 more before making a decision. The house is ~900sf plus an ~380sf detached garage, by my calculations it's 1600sf of roof surface, has ~4:12 pitch, and is a pretty simple roof (1940's tract home).

Bid #1: $19,451 ($12.16/sf)
- Seemed very professional, not a fly by night place, only using the best of the best techniques and materials, all employee labor, no day laborers.
- Very pushy sales pitch and they were trying to get me to use "Hero Program" financing.
- 2 layer tear off, all new OSB w/ radiant barrier, new flashing, paint all vents/stacks
- 50yr warranty because of the materials they use: 50yr Owens Corning shingles, composite/synthetic underlayment, "california weave" for the valleys, they also use some sort of extra waterproofing material in the valleys and around the edges of the roof.
- This guy calculated my roof area at 1800sf so I'm unsure if he's not good at math, over-estimating to get the price up or if that's simply the amount of material they will need to order to cover my 1600sf roof.

Bid #2: $7500 ($4.69/sf)
- Smaller company but has been in business for a long time and is local (which I like). Owner came to my house to give me the bid, he's clearly hands on at his jobs (he was very dirty) and isn't just a desk jockey/salesman
- 2 layer tear off, all new OSB w/ radiant barrier, all new flashing, paint all vents/stacks
- 30yr GAF or Owens Corning shingles, 30lb felt, and he also mentioned something about using torched modified bitumen granulated cap sheet
- 8yr warranty on materials and labor


So far I'm thinking these will likely end up being my low and high bids. I know bid #1 is insanely high so definitely not going with them. I liked the guy that gave me bid #2 but not knowing anything about roofing materials I'm not sure if this is a sub par roof or not (the 8yr warranty surprised me). I'm going to be calling a couple more places today, are there any obvious things I'm missing? Questions I should be asking? Materials/techniques I should be requesting? Any advice is greatly appreciated!

 

[CNGsaves]

I'd want Ice & Water Dam underlayment in all valleys and around entire perimeter. Menard's has it for $58 a roll that covers 2 squares (ie 200 sq ft).

Do you have trees that shed leaves in the "California Weave" valley ?? These can often clog up with **** on the roof when they "weave" the shingles across a valley like that. That's reason I prefer valley tin as the exposed 2 inches on both sides of middle crimp flush all the leaves/debris down to gutters at every rain. You can even get colored valley tin to match the shingle colors, rather than the shiny galvanized tin.

Do you have gutters on house ?? Make sure they don't tear those up when working on roof. If you have gutter helmet over gutters, this is especially important that they don't tear them up. You may have expense of removing and re-installing the gutter helmet to safeguard it.

Finally, make sure they are using roofing cement (ie gallon of tar) to "goober" up all the roof penetration coverings (ie vent covers, furnace pipe, etc) on the underlying edges so there is no way that water can leak past.

One last thought, NOW is time to address any shortcomings in roof venting if improvements are needed. Add turbine vents/turtle vents/ridge vent if your attic is too hot. Get up into attic and make sure that other ventilation items like bathroom exhaust vents/stove hood actually go out through roof and they're not dumping that moist air into general attic space. Also see if you have under-eave overhang vents (ie soffit) that let cool air up into attic. Now would be good time to add those as well. Good luck but don't take that $20K quote from 1st guy !!

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

Why new OSB?
If your roof is ship lap (as was common) and in good condition I think it would be better than OSB or plywood.

 

[Conner]

Decide on the grade of shingles (and system) you want and get the guys to all bid the same material. That will make it easier to decide. Roofing is generally a very competitive business so your bids should be pretty tight. Personally your first bid sounds high to me, but I don't live in CA (though I do live in an expensive-labor state).

My house is almost three times your square footage (though two stories) with significantly steeper pitch and that's slightly more than I paid for a new roof (one layer tear-off) this summer. But again, it's a different part of the country.

In general when I source contractors for bids I'm looking for someone who is an owner-operator or family business who has been in business for more than 10 years. You can source names from neighbors, the BBB website, Angie's list, or from suppliers or other contractors, but then check out their track record and if they pass a sniff test get them to quote and call their references. Be patient. If they are good, they probably can't get you into their schedule right away, but it is always worth the wait. Also, with some many service providers out there it makes no sense to take a risk on one you don't trust or doesn't check out. Move on to the next one.

My view it is worth it to pay a bit more for a good contractor and err on the side of caution because the bad ones can be a total nightmare.

 

[finn]

Get some references from #2.

If they check out, go with him.

The OSB is probably in the quote to insure a flat base for the new roofing.

I wouldn't think ice and water guard is required in Long Beach. It's nice to have, but in your climate I doubt if it has ever snowed, and rarely rains.

 

[Colin Len]

I'd want Ice & Water Dam underlayment in all valleys and around entire perimeter. Menard's has it for $58 a roll that covers 2 squares (ie 200 sq ft).

The first bid included this, the second I don't believe did. I wasn't sure if it was something that was needed with the weather being so temperate here - virtually no rain.

Do you have trees that shed leaves in the "California Weave" valley ?? These can often clog up with **** on the roof when they "weave" the shingles across a valley like that. That's reason I prefer valley tin as the exposed 2 inches on both sides of middle crimp flush all the leaves/debris down to gutters at every rain. You can even get colored valley tin to match the shingle colors, rather than the shiny galvanized tin.

No trees that shed on the house. The first guy was telling me that the metal valleys were sorta lame. But I'm not sure I should trust that guy very much.

Do you have gutters on house ?? Make sure they don't tear those up when working on roof. If you have gutter helmet over gutters, this is especially important that they don't tear them up. You may have expense of removing and re-installing the gutter helmet to safeguard it.

No gutters currently - well, there are a couple, but they're ****. I plan on adding gutters after the roof as part of a rainwater capture setup.

One last thought, NOW is time to address any shortcomings in roof venting if improvements are needed. Add turbine vents/turtle vents/ridge vent if your attic is too hot. Get up into attic and make sure that other ventilation items like bathroom exhaust vents/stove hood actually go out through roof and they're not dumping that moist air into general attic space. Also see if you have under-eave overhang vents (ie soffit) that let cool air up into attic. Now would be good time to add those as well. Good luck but don't take that $20K quote from 1st guy !!

Yeah, the second guy was talking about venting so I definitely want to change that up. Currently there's an attic fan which is OLD (belt driven, house vibrates when it's on) but that's about it. Since it's so hot here I definitely want to do everything I can to cool down the attic/house.

Why new OSB?
If your roof is ship lap (as was common) and in good condition I think it would be better than OSB or plywood.

It's not ship lap underneath, it's 1x6 boards spaced ~6 apart (sorry, not sure what the technical term would be). But must importantly I want the radiant barrier.

Decide on the grade of shingles (and system) you want and get the guys to all bid the same material. That will make it easier to decide. Roofing is generally a very competitive business so your bids should be pretty tight. Personally your first bid sounds high to me, but I don't live in CA (though I do live in an expensive-labor state).

The 2nd guy was telling me that most of the shingles were similarly priced so it wouldn't really matter. If I move forward with him then we could get into the nitty gritty of shingles and adjust the price up/down a little if needed. Does that sound correct?

In general when I source contractors for bids I'm looking for someone who is an owner-operator or family business who has been in business for more than 10 years. You can source names from neighbors, the BBB website, Angie's list, or from suppliers or other contractors, but then check out their track record and if they pass a sniff test get them to quote and call their references. Be patient. If they are good, they probably can't get you into their schedule right away, but it is always worth the wait. Also, with some many service providers out there it makes no sense to take a risk on one you don't trust or doesn't check out. Move on to the next one.

My view it is worth it to pay a bit more for a good contractor and err on the side of caution because the bad ones can be a total nightmare.

Yes, I'm sourcing my bids from recommendations of people I know, Homeadvisor, and the 1st bid was just someone doing door to door. But yeah, I agree, I'm not going for the cheapest, I want quality and someone who's honest and decent - local is also a big plus.

Get some references from #2.

If they check out, go with him.

The OSB is probably in the quote to insure a flat base for the new roofing.

I wouldn't think ice and water guard is required in Long Beach. It's nice to have, but in your climate I doubt if it has ever snowed, and rarely rains.

So far he has good reviews on HomeAdvisor. And that's what I was wondering in regard to the ice/water guard - not a bad idea, but is it needed? We've never seen snow and almost never rains (unfortunately).



Thanks all, keep the advice coming!

 

[pcmeiners]

"- 50yr warranty because of the materials they use" Anyone offering 30 yrs is full of it, 50 is even more absurd; are his great grand children going to honor the warranty?

"- 8yr warranty on materials and labor" likely being honest, around here the average roofing businesses dissolve every few years.

If you do not produce all the specs, it is the fox in the hen house. You need to do a decent amount of roof research on Google

Personally I have only used 3/4" ply on roof replacements. There is not one house in my neighborhood built in the 60s-70s where I could not place my foot though ( or fall through) a roof very easily.
Not sure what sheathing they used, either 3/8" or 1/2" .

 

[CNGsaves]

The Owens Corning Weatherlock (ie similar to Ice & Water Dam) underlayment at Menard's around the perimeter and all valleys is preventative measure as it's "self healing" as it has tar backing that sticks to the roof. Also, this is becoming common practice to do valleys and perimeter, even in drier climates as it protects the new OSB from any potential water leak damage. It has to rain "sometime" even in California !!

One other thing to ask about is HOW they fasten the new OSB sheeting and stagger pattern to offset joints. Require proper nailing with ring shank coated nails (ie no shortcuts with staples).

Finally, get apples-to-apples quote as other post mentioned so same quality of OSB (go with 1/2" or better), shingles, underlayment, etc. Good luck.

 

[jimindm]

I am not sure why ice guard would be required in long beach. I would say that it is great stuff and I would not have a problem with them wanting to use it. Like in valleys or right at the base.

I would guess that what have described as current sheathing, would be for a wood shake roof, or maybe tile. Those were usually done without full sheathing and just boards with spaces between. Not much tile in Iowa, but a lot of wood shake. Likely those spaced boards are good sized as far as sheathing goes, but just not useful when using shingles because of the space. Common practice here is just 1/2 OSB laid over the top, and repair of any of your spaced boards as required. That is thick enough to hold any fastening system that would miss your spaced wood.

Do not get caught up in shingle warranty. Roofs wear out and you need to replace them. I would be very sceptical of any roofer claiming a fifty year warranty. First off is he going to be around that long. I would bet that the shingle manufacturer has done all of the lab tests to determine that, while it might be a very good shingle, they likely have non out there in the real world to actually verify that.

I think any one with any sense could go to a place that sells shingle and see the difference in shingle and there cost. Do not get a cheap one and there likely is not a lot of difference to their top of the line. Get something close.

I am no roofer, but there has to be some factor in the waste. You can not simply use a full shingle all of the time. Depending on peaks and valleys, I would guess a 10-15% overage would be close.

If you feel comfortable with the last guys bid, why get more. Call some of his references and check them out. Actually go see the work.

I have kind of given up on reading reviews on the internet, for anything. Very few comment on good work. So a guy has a few bad reviews, but does hundreds of roofs a year. Trust me there is no business that you will ever deal with that is 100% satisfaction. Customer expectations prevent it.

Lastly, it sound like you got these two by references from friends. What better references are there. These boards are filled with can't get a contractor out to bid a job threads, and you have two.

 

[Falcon67]

He's in LA, I don't think he need ice and water dam stuff. Nobody here uses it either.

If it's a tile or cedar shake roof, then yep - it need OSB. I've used radiant OSB and it does work. Also, from my experience with composite roof shingles over the years - "life" is dependent on a lot of things. We put the regular base line stuff on here unless we'd want the "sculpted look" because if you have insurance, shingles likely never reach mfg end of life before a hail storm takes them out. We moved here in 1997 and have had two roofs replaced, both a deductible cost.

So I'd be more likly to get references from the $7500 bid guy and go that way.

Also, remember your roof is sloped and maybe has valleys and hips. Your 1600 sq/ft floor does not. That ads considerable squares to the roof area, plus you figure near 10% for waste, cut offs, bad out of the bundle, etc. My shop is 960 sq/ft - I bought 14 square to cover it and had two bundles left over (that's 2/3 of a square) . No hips or valleys.

 

[Kevin54]

1600 square foot is 16 squares of shingles, and the first guy wants over $1000/square to put a new roof on? Even with OSB, around here, you could do three or four roofs for that amount. I'd kick that guy to the curb. And of course he wants you to finance it as that is more money for them.

The second guy sounds more in line for something like that, and I'd probably go with him if it were me.

I just bought 35 square of shingles with a 30 year warranty, and I paid $3395 for the shingles, coil nails, starter strip, ice guard, and drip edge. That was for materials only. Labor is usually double that for stripping and replacing the shingles.

 

[Hpozzuoli]

I wish I was a roofer. I do small sheds, additions, and garages, but not houses. Materials are moderate in price...maybe 1/8 of the job. There is a huge margin in roofing. There is also 4-5 guys on the roofs high requires money. The lower bid was very honest. The high bid was making a ton to help with the over head.

Figure 1 square of shingles cost approx $75 so 16 squares is going to run $400 just for the shingles. Then another $400 for felt, ice/water, and misc ****. Figure $1000 for the materials. Knowing this you can now decide what to do.

 

[Hpozzuoli]

Kevin got his out while I was typing...dam his speedy fingers!

 

[NUTTSGT]

I wish I was a roofer. I do small sheds, additions, and garages, but not houses. Materials are moderate in price...maybe 1/8 of the job. There is a huge margin in roofing. There is also 4-5 guys on the roofs high requires money. The lower bid was very honest. The high bid was making a ton to help with the over head.

Figure 1 square of shingles cost approx $75 so 16 squares is going to run $400 just for the shingles. Then another $400 for felt, ice/water, and misc ****. Figure $1000 for the materials. Knowing this you can now decide what to do.

I believe your math is off a tad.

16 squares @ $75/sq = $400 ?? 16x75=1200

 

[Casey69]

check out the BBB before going w/ guy #2, but it's a no-brainer if he checks out. i roofed my own place ~5 years ago because the bids i was receiving were laughable.

could get an extra one if you're curious, but 1600 sq feet, plus osb, plus 2 layer tear off for $7500 isn't a bad bid.

if you're up to it & want to deal, offer to rent a dumpster & do the tear off yourself & see if #2 will give you a discount. you & a few buddies could probably do the tear off in an afternoon.

 

[egdede]

I'd want Ice & Water Dam underlayment in all valleys and around entire perimeter. Menard's has it for $58 a roll that covers 2 squares (ie 200 sq ft).

Do you have trees that shed leaves in the "California Weave" valley ?? These can often clog up with **** on the roof when they "weave" the shingles across a valley like that. That's reason I prefer valley tin as the exposed 2 inches on both sides of middle crimp flush all the leaves/debris down to gutters at every rain. You can even get colored valley tin to match the shingle colors, rather than the shiny galvanized tin....Good luck but don't take that $20K quote from 1st guy !!

Metal shingles with concealed screws have been used for 25 years that i am aware. The primary problems I have seen are people cutting corners by using fewer than recommended screws and with finish coatings on early products. My slate product has the same sort of Kynar that colored panels use.

Everything CNGsaves says is money!!!

Go read about the different ways valley's are handled. I live in So Cal. too. I have worked as a roofer (as a much younger man) and, more recently, paid for roofs to be installed on 2 homes. My experience is that most roofers in so-cal want to use a 'california-weave' or a 'cut weave'. I especially agree w/CNGsaves about metal as leaves will clump and lead to all variety of problems in woven valleys of either style.

On the jobs I recently paid for I would tell roofers before they came out: I will want metal valleys. They would tender offers that specified woven valleys. I had multiple roofers get huffy and say 'I've been doing this for x years and this is how I do it'. And get mad at me for wasting their time. (I would be thinking 'then why the #@*% did you come out when I wanted a metal valley.)

I ended up getting a metal shingle that looks like slate. It is ****!!! It took 2 tons off my 90 year old framing. It cools down quickly when the sun sets. There are metal tile that look like shake, shingle, slate and tile. That is what 19k should be getting you. Standing seem looks especially dramatic on steeply pitched roofs. That's a little more.

I can snap a picture tomorrow. It should look nice after our recent rain!

 

[slip knot]

I'd get some refrences from guy #2 and see what he's done in the past. Guy #1 is just a bit too high for my area.

 

[FullRaceMerc]

Yes to metal valleys, even here. Less trouble over time.

Life of the roof will be less than the advertised life on the package here. Lots of hot sunny days reduce the life of roofs. Advertised by the year warranties are normally provided by the manufacturer & are pro rated. The guy offering his own 8 year warranty on top of that sounds like a plus over most roofers who would simply tell you that it is a 25/30/40/50 year roof just like the package says. Roofs rated for more years are typically thicker & look better in addition to having longer lives. Look at roofs in your neighborhood & go to the local roofing supply to see what you like. Notice the effect that thicker shingles have on the look. Take a sample home to see what it looks like against your paint & in the lighting of your yard. Fluorescent lighting in stores makes colors look different. Imho the longer life roofs are worth the price difference. Get the brand, style, & rating of your choice to give to the roofer. Don't try to buy it yourself, buy it thru him. The roofer needs to earn money somewhere to make it worthwhile to do your roof & warranty, & probably can buy it for less than you can.

Radiant barrier is a great plan. It is surprising how much cooler an attic is under it. Skip sheathing is what we call the 1x with spaces in between. Wood shingles were common here for a long time, & skip sheathing was used under them. Later layers were added over the wood shingles. When you strip the layers, the skip sheathing won't properly support comp shingles. The 1x stays, so the layer (Ply or OSB) over doesn't have to be as heavy as it would be directly on rafters. We like the radiant barrier OSB for the heat reduction.

Good insulation & attic venting is important for heat too. Through the roof or gable end power vents with adjustable thermostats are a plus. But it is critical that there is enough open venting to allow air into the attic to replace what the fans draw out. Otherwise the fans can pull cooled air from within the house.

A common mistake in SoCal is to underestimate how much it rains. It doesn't much most years, but every so often it will rain for a 2 or 3 weeks straight. We get a decent amount of work on houses where the builder didn't seem to think it would ever rain here & didn't prepare for it.

Your 2nd bid sounds more in line. In addition to checking the guy out, ask him to have his insurance send you a certificate of insurance. It is not asked for very often, but anyone properly covered is used to doing this on occasion. Worker's comp & general liability will send the forms directly to the customer with the customer named when the contractor requests it. The insurer will then notify you if there is a change in his insurance status. This important with roofing. Just in case.

 

[drmarkr]

50 yrs.....I chuckled out loud.

If you can get a couple of good references on #2, why in the heck wouldn't you run with it. Maybe get one or two more for comparison, I suppose. But #1 is FOS, IMHO.....

 

[nadogail]

Check any roofing company for their Workers Comp insurance. It costs money to insure a worker on a roof, the last premium estimate I got was 110% of the gross wages paid out. Roofers tend to get hurt on the job, and their medical care and lost wages are not cheap.

If the Roofer does not have the right insurance, the homeowner is stuck with all the costs for the injury.

 

[Cyberbear]

Any offers of extended warranty on the materials, above that by the manufacturer, could be wishful thinking. If the roofer goes belly-up, so does his personal warranty. Check his contractor license before signing anything, by calling the state contractors licensing board to see how many complaints have been filed. References are always important, the roofer should be more than happy to provide some. Never pay more than 10% for a deposit, the state expects the roofer to be financially stable to front the materials cost. Everything in writing including completion dates, and lien releases from material suppliers.

 

[Bluedodge]

Bang their wife's and go with the more energetic.

 

[Colin Len]

Sorry I've been MIA, work has been busy and I was sick over the weekend. Still working on getting more quotes. Received another for $9300 and should be getting another sent to me within the next couple days from my meeting with another roofter last night. I'm slowly starting to become more familiar with the terms and materials, so that's good. I'm thinking that after all these quotes come in I'll do the rest of my research (this is part of a bigger project so I need some general construction guys, window/door installation, patio cover construction, concrete work, stucco work...etc) and when the time comes closer to actually pull the trigger I'll pick my top 2-3 roofers and ask them all for a revised quote with the same materials so I can see a little more apples to apples comparison.

 

[jives]

So you already know that #1 was way too high and his 50 yr warranty was over the top. Are you sure this wasn't a standing seam metal roof???

In 30 years no one will be putting on asphalt, especially in SoCal. It will likely be thin film photovoltaic shingles. In fact, you may want to consider them now, or a metal roof with thin film rolls like this:

http://www.greensolarcafe.com/renewable-energy/solar-metal-roofing/

SoCal may be different than where I'm at, but what about a ridge vent? Seems that would be easy enough to handle while they are putting OSB over the skip sheathing. BTW, the OSB may most likely be 7/16", and not a true 1/2". You may want to consider ZIP system rather than OSB + underlayment.

 

[Colin Len]

That's really interesting about the solar panels that fit into that metal roofing. Unfortunately that's not in the budget for this project, plus I'm not sure if I'll be in the house for more than another 5yrs.

 

[Falcon67]

Interesting comments - don't hardly see any metal valleys here, it's all weave. No problems I've seen with trash in the valleys. Maybe because we don't have California trees. Or, you need more pitch on those roofs. Most here are 6 or better, very few of the old 50's type low hip ranch.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Just had my roof replaced last week. 23 squares of CertainTeed Landmark shingles if that helps. 6 feet of ice and water shield and all new drip edge. Replaced all vents with ridge vent as is now usual and replaced an old skylight with a new Velux. No extra work was required, as foreman told me everything was in good shape, which I was happy about, as I watched pretty much the entire process, including them lifting up the OSB to inspect for trouble underneath, insulation, etc. Shingles weren't really bad, but were getting old, 16 years, and cheap ones, as is usual in manufactured homes. $6945 for all. I used one of the most popular companies for my area.