Need suggestions on 40X60 Stick Built Shop

[Golden40]

So far here is whats been determined: 40x60x10, 6" concrete flooring built on a foundation, approx. 3 coarse of block bringing the building 1FT out of the ground, radiant floor heat, scissor trusses, (2) 10x8 O.H.D, (1) 12X12 O.H.D., (2) man doors, several windows, 1/2 bath, kitchen sink, (2) floor drains, and porch. Key note: I'm building this once, I'm 30yrs old and want it to be built right the first time, and last until I'm older than dirt!!

-Radiant Floor Heat
-Hot water heater or boiler or ????
-What size of heater or boiler or ????
-What type of insulation under concrete?
-What type of insulation along the side?
-Concrete
-Fiber or Rebar?
-Foundation Depth (Location of build is Southern IL)
-18",24", or 30"
-Vapor Barrier
-15Mil, 6Mil?
-Any and all suggestions welcomed
-Thanks!!!!

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Local building codes/inspection office can tell you where the "legal" frost line is and how deep the foundation needs to be.

Personally, forget the fiber, go with rebar.

Go taller if you can.

Charles

 

[akdiesel]

You closely described the shop I have. Are you using this for a buisiness or are you planning on living in it?
As Charles said alot of your choices will be dictated by your local code.
As for the water heater I have a 50 gallon tank and I am planning on changing over to the tankless heater since I don't use the hot water that much and I have one large Modine heater in the shop and no radiant floor tubes.

 

[rodnok1]

I agree rebar over fiber
6 mill vapor barrier

 

[Possum]

Wider doors if the 8x10 you list are 8' wide(10" min width) - with hilift if you want a lift, hire a pro or do some serious research and calculations on the radiant layout, Extruded polystyrene under the slab, rebar, foundations depend on location, 15mil.

 

[Ryan10700]

Just curious. . .Why stick built and not all steel?

 

[JeepHD]

Definetely go at least 10 ft wide garage doors. I am in the quoting and planning stage of a 40x60 (possibly 72') stick built myself. I am actually going with 12 ft door just to make it easy getting a trailer in and out. Insulate vertically along footer and under floor.

Check out this build, although bigger in scale, I think he's doing a lot of things right. http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51394&showall=1

Research everything this is a great place also others locally that have built similiar. Also get multiple quotes from builders and ask thier recommendations.

 

[bucs012]

I just built a 50x30 stick. In Iowa it was about $8,000 less cost over steel.
Also, the way mine sits, it looks like everyone elses garage (vinyl siding) but mine is 50 feet long on the backside that you don't see from the street.

I Went with paper baced insulation r19 walls and R32 or r36? ceilings. Can't rememeber.

***Eveyone needs to build their garage to their own liking***, but these guys are making a good point about the narrow doors you are thinking about. I was going to go that route but then decided on just putting in, one door on the 30 foot side that is 18 feet wide and 9 feet tall. This door faces the street.

My ceilings are 9 foot too. Mine is a hot rod garage (no full lift needed) so that was just right for me. Much less space to cool and less area for the heat to raise in the winter.

This is all you see from the street. The door is 18x9

 

[rwhite692]

Do you intend to have a lift in your shop? If so you might consider trusses in order to get the maximum possible ceiling height. I'm not sure what is possible with trusses on a 40' span...This is a 24x36, 10 ft at the walls, and 13'6" at the interior peak:

I would also use a 9' high door opening, for the garage door...This is 9x16

 

[Falcon67]

From a guy with a 9 x 7 door - get 10' wide doors minimum. My #1 oversight on my 24x20 (other than making it 12" taller and 10' longer LOL). If you tinker with cars or at least own a trailer, you'll need 10' min to get a car hauler or farm trailer through the overhead.

 

[Golden40]

Cost more than anything. I want to finish out the inside, and stick built is a little easier than steel

 

[Kevin54]

From a guy with a 9 x 7 door - get 10' wide doors minimum. My #1 oversight on my 24x20 (other than making it 12" taller and 10' longer LOL). If you tinker with cars or at least own a trailer, you'll need 10' min to get a car hauler or farm trailer through the overhead.

I could get my car trailer into my garage with a 9' door (extra wide trailer) but I only had 2" on each side of the trailer backing it in. Also one of my biggest mistakes was not going a foot or two higher and having an 8' tall door. My buddy has a lifted truck and it will not go through my 7' tall door. Second biggest mistake was putting in two 9'x7' doors instead of a 16' door. With a 16' door you can maneuver vehicles around a lot easier. I could easily get one or maybe two more vehicles in my garage if need be with a 16' door.
Another thing you really want to consider is electrical outlets and lighting. Plan ahead. I have outlets every 6' on the walls and I put outlets in the corners of the ceiling. Put a couple of outlets up high on the wall for clocks. Run a couple of phone jacks (one on each side of the garage. Run a couple of cable outlets. And make your overhead lighting where you can separate it out. Use multiple switches for different banks of lights. On the side I mainly work on, I have two outer rows of lights on one switch, the middle two rows on another, and the other side of the garage that does not get worked in an yet another switch.

 

[Golden40]

I'm writing this all down. These are all great ideas!! Thanks and keep em' coming. Can they cut expansion grooves in the floor, when radiant floor heat is present.

 

[willymakeit]

I'm writing this all down. These are all great ideas!! Thanks and keep em' coming. Can they cut expansion grooves in the floor, when radiant floor heat is present.

Yes they can. Radiant heat tubing is usally tied to wire mesh that is setting on chairs. Buy the mesh in sheets instead of rolls. Put your base on top of a 15 to 20 mil vapor barrier. This allows the moisture from the concrete to dissapte evenly. Have your flatwork conct. to use a soft cut saw. Seal the concrete also with a high solids cure and seal.

Layout where you want a lift, route tubing around the thickened spot footings.

 

[jklingel]

What Willy said is just what my engineer said, EXCEPT that, when I asked about cutting the slab (which is spookie no matter who does it) he got a bit testy and said "That is absolute b*&^%$t! That does not do a (blank) thing." I have no experience, but he is a pretty good engineer, FWIW. If for some reason the PEX lifts just a tad and someone runs a saw through it, that could be spendy and ugly. Watch for plastic in his saw dust! I've read of installing very thin angle iron, from the bottom of the slab extending up 2". That provides a weak point for the slab to crack. I've also read (maybe right here?) that putting 2" of moist sand under the slab helps to keep the concrete from curling because the 'crete dries quicker on top than bottom. My engiineer also suggested laying visqueen over the slab to slow drying, as well as "chemicals" to help seal the surface, like I think W alluded to.

 

[Kevin54]

What Willy said is just what my engineer said, EXCEPT that, when I asked about cutting the slab (which is spookie no matter who does it) he got a bit testy and said "That is absolute b*&^%$t! That does not do a (blank) thing." I have no experience, but he is a pretty good engineer, FWIW. If for some reason the PEX lifts just a tad and someone runs a saw through it, that could be spendy and ugly. Watch for plastic in his saw dust! I've read of installing very thin angle iron, from the bottom of the slab extending up 2". That provides a weak point for the slab to crack. I've also read (maybe right here?) that putting 2" of moist sand under the slab helps to keep the concrete from curling because the 'crete dries quicker on top than bottom. My engiineer also suggested laying visqueen over the slab to slow drying, as well as "chemicals" to help seal the surface, like I think W alluded to.

Cutting a control joint DOES do something. It "controls where the slab is going to crack. I'll post a pic up later when I am out in the garage showing exactly how a control joint works. When they did my slab the saw does not go all the way to the wall and there is a space of a couple of inches that is not cut. It cracked at an angle at that area. Other than that the cracks were in the control joint.
As far as the PEX goes, you want it pinned or supported where it is stationary and not going to float up. It would be a real ***** if it was cut through, but if your contractor is going to cut it, either he is going too deep with the cut or the PEX was installed incorrectly.

 

[larry_g]

If you have pex in figure out a way to pressurise it with air during the concrete work. It will be obvious where it is damaged, if it is. If pressurised during the pour have some unions on hand so you can fix it while mud is wet. In the two shops I have built we used 'zip strips'. These are plastic strips that go into the wet concrete and will give the weak point for the controlled cracking.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[jklingel]

Kerfs make sense to me, but the engineer said that getting a crack in one is more luck than function. He said the 'crete is going to crack wherever the H it wants to. I have no real experience w/ kerfs. As for cutting it w/ a saw, it is always that big IF. It would just make me nervous, and I'd prefer the angle iron idea (if practical to implement) or crossing the damp slab on sheets of plywood and severing it w/ a butter knife; something along that line. If a floor is covered, like in most houses, I don't see why cracks matter anyway. In a garage, the aesthetics may be a valid concern. Shoot, cracks make sweeping up faster till they fill!

 

[jklingel]

Larry: Pls explain zip strips. Sound safer than saws. j

 

[willymakeit]

Zip strips are installed while concrete is being placed against a form. They do work good. Then pull plastic strip out after conc. has set and caulk. Control joints ideally shouldnt be more than 20 ft. apart. Square corners are the worst for cracking, this is what is called a reentrant corner. If you are doing pole barn const. wrap the posts with something to allow for expansion. Try to put control joints at post also.

 

[deuces2]

Try to plan putting electrical outlets on the outside of the garage,they come in real handy, I also recomend one wide 16 foot door at least 8 foot tall rather than two little doors or 8 x 10s

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I put in metal keyways rather than saw the control joints. I wished I'd known about the zip strips that snap on the top of the keyways and then pull out as the concrete is set up, but I didn't and my builder apparently didn't either, he just set the top of the keys to be the surface of the floor. Some places they show, most they are slightly under the surface.

Charles

 

[Worsedog]

My garage main area is 30x40 with no saw cuts etc and no cracks. It was already built when I bought the house. I think it is about 25 years old. I always wonder what they did to keep it from cracking as I see all the debate about control joints.


As far as suggestions, there are some great ones listed. I have outlets every 32 inches, 3/4 bath, 3 tons of a/c, high current outlets near the big doors so I can take the welders and plasma cutter out in the driveway with out long extension cords.

 

[Friartuck]

Golden40,

For your location in Southern Ill, absolutely insulate both the inside of the foundation down to the frost line (48 inches) using full sheets of 2 inch thick Owens Corning Foamular 250 and under the slab with the same Foamular 250. You must use Foamular 250 which has a rating of 25 psi (needed for the weight of concrete). Suggest notching the vertical insulation to leave one inch insulation between slab edge and foundation. Also suggest getting the tongue & grove version for tight joints. This tubing layout concept puts the radiant tubing closer to the edges which is a valid design criteria. It also minimizes the number of times it crosses over the expansion joint.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=53145&d=1265056354

 

[larry_g]

The zip strips that are in my floor are there permentantly. They are just at or below the surface. The actual strips are ~1/8" by 1" and they come with a stiffner attached for installation and the stiffner is removed when the strip is imbedded in the wet concrete before finishing. Ask to see some at the building store, or ask your concrete guy.

As for the heating tube think about where you are going to have storage or stairwells and such. On my first shop I just heated the whole thing and then found that I had wasted a bunch by heating nonwork areas of the building that I later used as storage. Plan ahead a bit and don't make the mistake I did.
lg
no neat sig line

 

[jklingel]

"You must use Foamular 250 which has a rating of 25 psi (needed for the weight of concrete)." FWIW, my engineer requires the 40 psi XPS. I'd lean toward overkill on that, as cheap insurance. Larry's link looks like a typical spacing for PEX. Assuming you don't have any extreme heat loss, that ought to work from what I've read everywhere. If you are going to have a toilet in the garage (I am sick of having to hoof to the house and take off filthy clothes/boots), I think the PEX has to be at least 8" from the toilet or you may melt the wax ring; farther if your water temp needs to be on the high end. I'll keep mine at least a foot away; what's the diff? I don't sit there for hours, and I'll have footwear on.