need to pick a load center.

[fflintstone]

I am looking for the best value in a load center for my shop.
I will need 3 50A dual pole breakers 1 30A DP and one 20A DP for my 240V needs. I figure 4-5 20a single pole for outlets and 3 15A for lighting.
this box would leave me 7-8 slots for additional future needs.

http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

anybody have any other low price options?

 

[scelectrician]

That's not a bad panel but if you want something that will last for a long time get a cutler hammer. the breakers are very avaliable and also interchangeable with alot of different breakers, where you will only be able to use GE breakers for that panel, just my .02

 

[mrb]

That's not a bad panel but if you want something that will last for a long time get a cutler hammer. the breakers are very avaliable and also interchangeable with alot of different breakers, where you will only be able to use GE breakers for that panel, just my .02

uh, just because a breaker fits doesnt mean you can use it. Has to be listed for the panel its going in.

 

[scelectrician]

uh, just because a breaker fits doesnt mean you can use it. Has to be listed for the panel its going in.

long as the breaker is rated the same as the panel it is ok, and these breakers are made to be interchanged, trust me done alot of load centers in my time and also switch gear and motor controls...................

 

[hillbilly1]

GE is not all that good, if you want a middle of the line panel, use Siemens. The Cutler Hammer BR series is not any good either (It's a warmed over Westinghouse) The Cutler Hammer CH series though is very good, along with Square D's QO series.( the Square D also has a trip indicator that makes it very easy to find a tripped breaker) I have found that with GE's, the handle will not move to the center position if it is tripped about 50% of the time.

 

[Motown 454]

Can someone tell me the difference between the Square D QO and the homeline ?

 

[mrb]

long as the breaker is rated the same as the panel it is ok, and these breakers are made to be interchanged, trust me done alot of load centers in my time and also switch gear and motor controls...................

the breaker has to be classified. it cant simply fit, has to be listed. there is also the issue of losing the series rating. for example most of the res sqd panels now have a 22ka main and a series rating of 22ka using 10ka sqd branch breakers. use a breaker other than a sqd -even if classified, and you lose the series rating.

bottom line, only use the breakers for the panel. I think the whole classified thing is stupid anyways as the branch breakers between manufacturers are all around the same price anyways.

 

[mrb]

Can someone tell me the difference between the Square D QO and the homeline ?

the guts of the breaker are pretty much the same, hom breakers are 1" wide, QO breakers are 3/4" wide and have the visi trip indicator. the way the breakers snap on the bus is different -QO has a unique clip.

 

[trbomax]

Homeline is aluminum,QO is copper.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I am looking for the best value in a load center for my shop.
I will need 3 50A dual pole breakers 1 30A DP and one 20A DP for my 240V needs. I figure 4-5 20a single pole for outlets and 3 15A for lighting.
this box would leave me 7-8 slots for additional future needs.

http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

anybody have any other low price options?

Thats an outdoor rated panelboard. I cannot see why you would want to use that in an indoor installation. For that kind of money you can find a 30 space indoor panelboard "contractor pack" with some breakers in it.

Siemens is a decent panel, that is what I have. Copper buss bars but plastic breaker retainer strips. Cutler-Hammer CH series uses proprietary breakers but has a copper buss bar and a metal breaker retainer. GE has a galvanized box, which is resistant to rusting, but indoors, it won't matter anyhow. The GE panels I've seen had a copper buss bar with an aluminum looking coating, but not really sure what it was. They work, what can I say? Homeline is cheap, no way around it. Square D QO series is well made but I've never liked the way the breakers clip to the buss bar, but I suppose it works.

In looking for a panel, I look for one with full length ground and neutral bars, preferably having one of each on both sides of the panel (they did not make this when I bought my panel several years ago.) This saves running either the ground or the neutral, depending on which side the breaker is on, all the way around to the other side of the panel.

Charles

 

[fflintstone]

Thats an outdoor rated panelboard. I cannot see why you would want to use that in an indoor installation. For that kind of money you can find a 30 space indoor panelboard "contractor pack" with some breakers in it.
Charles

While it is an outdoor box, it is a contractor pack with 6 20A single pole and 1 30A , 1 50A DP breakers and its only $82.

If you see something better for around a $100 from Lowes or HD let me know.

 

[oldgoaly]

all but the Cutler-Hammer CH series is coming out of china or mexico, I needed to get 2 for the house and one for the shop, about 150$ additional cost, but save the breakers in the shop from the older tapped out box. 42 circuits each, I live on a farm have lots of out buildings.

 

[Grumpy365]

I like Square D. Their stuff just feels better quality. Just my opinion.

 

[6768rogues]

I have Square D in all my buildings and never had a problem getting breakers anywhere and have no reason to try anything else. Some are QO and some are Homeline. The Homeline is not as glitzy, but it works just fine and breakers are dirt cheap.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

While it is an outdoor box, it is a contractor pack with 6 20A single pole and 1 30A , 1 50A DP breakers and its only $82.

If you see something better for around a $100 from Lowes or HD let me know.

Lowes, GE TM3220CCU2K 32 space, 40 circuit, 200 amp with 10ea 20 amp breakers, one 30 amp double pole and one 50 amp double pole. $122.

Lowes and HD web sites only show a smattering of what is in the store. I've seen Siemens and GE contractor packs for $100 to $120 recently. Spend some time in the store looking at everything, you will find it.

Charles

 

[Norcal]

Bryant/Westinghouse/Cutler-Hammer BR, GE (You can't spell garbaGE without GE), & SQ D HOMOline are all Zinsco II panels, Zinsco is the most reviled name in electrical equipment that was known as Sylvania & Challenger in later years before they disappeared,IMO all three lines of panels should be avoided, Cutler-Hammer CH is still the last decent residential/light commercial loadcenter left on the market, SQ D QO has a good breaker but a cheap panel with a plastic interior as does Siemens panels.

 

[fflintstone]

Bryant/Westinghouse/Cutler-Hammer BR, GE (You can't spell garbaGE without GE), & SQ D HOMOline are all Zinsco II panels, Zinsco is the most reviled name in electrical equipment that was known as Sylvania & Challenger in later years before they disappeared,IMO all three lines of panels should be avoided, Cutler-Hammer CH is still the last decent residential/light commercial loadcenter left on the market, SQ D QO has a good breaker but a cheap panel with a plastic interior as does Siemens panels.

What makes one brand/style/type better than another? I don’t get it. The box sits there and if you have an overload or short it should disconnect. It either works or it doesn’t. There not chrome plated or titanium. These things are in millions of homes across the USA. I have a square D homeline in my current house. Had a GE in the former house, a square D homeline in my old garage. I don’t remember before that, nor do I care. Brand loyalty is one thing, but its not like you say to your guests “hey come look at my load center, its grey!”, “oouuhh, 200A main! Wow black circuit breakers”. Try using “I’ve got a siemens load center” as a pickup line in a bar. Come on what’s the difference? If you can show me one thing that really is an advantage that affects the function of the load center, I will retract my sarcasm.

 

[Norcal]

What makes one brand/style/type better than another? I don’t get it. The box sits there and if you have an overload or short it should disconnect. It either works or it doesn’t. There not chrome plated or titanium. These things are in millions of homes across the USA. I have a square D homeline in my current house. Had a GE in the former house, a square D homeline in my old garage. I don’t remember before that, nor do I care. Brand loyalty is one thing, but its not like you say to your guests “hey come look at my load center, its grey!”, “oouuhh, 200A main! Wow black circuit breakers”. Try using “I’ve got a siemens load center” as a pickup line in a bar. Come on what’s the difference? If you can show me one thing that really is an advantage that affects the function of the load center, I will retract my sarcasm.

It is just like a Yugo VS a Toyota some products are built better then others, SQ D panels used to be built like the proverbial brick sh*thouse but they cheaped out years ago, GE is just a crappy design, but should say my own shop has a GE A-Series panelboard (THQB bolt-on breakers) + a mix and match of ITE/Siemens & SQ D panels too. Siemens loadcenters are aluminum bus on indoor single phase as standard (copper optional) but all outdoor & 3 phase are copper as standard, but are a plastic interior. Due to some issues about 30 years ago I have had a dislike of Bryant breakers,later Westinghouse & now C-H due to Westinghouse selling their electrical div. to Eaton, C-H had been advertising the BR line as "Engineered Value" which means CHEAP! SQ D HOMOline is just another cheap line to make SQ D competitive, the all-in-one panels popular here in CA are no longer available in QO, only HOM. My personal preference is C-H CH panels because they are a decent panel combined w/ a good breaker, my 2nd choice is Siemens because they are also a decent breaker & ITE has been common here for many years (Siemens bought ITE & changed the name) SQ D QO would be my 3rd choice but not sure they are worth a premium for a cheap panel & good breaker combo.

 

[hillbilly1]

There are differences, all of them may pass the minimum UL testing requirements, there is definetly quality differences. Clearing time on a fault is one of them. Square D QO and Cutler Hammer CH styles clear quicker under a fault. I have seen this time and time again. The majority of work I do is commercial, All of the other brands will rattle the conduit before the breaker trips, They also have a larger arc flash. There is a lot of factors such as available fault current, distance to the transformer, ect. that affect this, but as a whole, these breakers are faster acting. Read up on Federal Pacific breakers if you think there all the same. Home Depot uses GE in their newer stores in a manufactured panel assembly, when you push on the breaker in the panel, it will bow the buss back, as there is no support behind it. ( these panels do not have an enclosure supporting the back, bad Idea!)

 

[fflintstone]

There are differences, all of them may pass the minimum UL testing requirements, there is definetly quality differences. Clearing time on a fault is one of them. Square D QO and Cutler Hammer CH styles clear quicker under a fault. I have seen this time and time again. The majority of work I do is commercial, All of the other brands will rattle the conduit before the breaker trips, They also have a larger arc flash. There is a lot of factors such as available fault current, distance to the transformer, ect. that affect this, but as a whole, these breakers are faster acting. Read up on Federal Pacific breakers if you think there all the same. Home Depot uses GE in their newer stores in a manufactured panel assembly, when you push on the breaker in the panel, it will bow the buss back, as there is no support behind it. ( these panels do not have an enclosure supporting the back, bad Idea!)

ok, I can get on board with a "quicker clearing time" (this would effect FUNCTION ) but what the hell is a "larger arc flash"

dont get me wrong, I apricate beefy construction (I use comercial outlets with the metal strap across the back) an outlet is used often but breakes are seldom swiched.
Once installed a breaker may not ever be switched for its entire life.

 

[kmacht]

I just installed a smaller version of that homline panel this past weekend. It was bought from Home Depot and was about $48 including the main breaker and 5 20 amp breakers. It worked for its application but the quality isn't there. A few examples. The cover fits very poorly. There is a gap around 3 sides of the main breaker. Also, the load center box did not have the screw holes tapped for the cover. I had to tap them myself.

Keith

 

[fflintstone]

I just installed a smaller version of that homline panel this past weekend. It was bought from Home Depot and was about $48 including the main breaker and 5 20 amp breakers. It worked for its application but the quality isn't there. A few examples. The cover fits very poorly. There is a gap around 3 sides of the main breaker. Also, the load center box did not have the screw holes tapped for the cover. I had to tap them myself.

Keith

Wishing for the days when all we had to ***** about was companies shifting to Mexico?
My recent mag starter purchase was I believe from Mexico and of good quality.

 

[Aceman]

I'm a fan of Siemens myself. I'd avoid anything with aluminum buss.

Also, the load center box did not have the screw holes tapped for the cover. I had to tap them myself.

You know the cover screws are made to thread themselves in, right?

 

[hillbilly1]

ok, I can get on board with a "quicker clearing time" (this would effect FUNCTION ) but what the hell is a "larger arc flash"

It has to do with the energy allowed to pass before the breaker trips on a short circuit, The longer it takes for a breaker to trip, the hotter the flash at the point of the short. Not as much an issue with residential because of smaller transformers and lower voltage power lines, but a major problem in commercial and Industrial applications. OSHA now requires protective clothing and eye protection to reduce injuries caused by molten metal that is hotter than the surface of the sun being spewed out.

 

[sberry]

Everyone has their faves and opinions but for small garages I don't think it means squat what brand it is. I agree the Westinghouse BR stuff is pretty flimsy but even at that its not designed to be in a demo derby anyway. I happened to use SQD QO mainly because its what I went to when tossing the original federal stuff and I have maybe a couple dozen panels with continuous upgrades going on so I wanted to be the same. Since this involves a few hundred breakers I might have be tempted to go Homeline if I started over due to cost.

 

[cowboyjosh]

The only 2 brands I will use in a house are Square D QO series; or Cutler Hammer CH series; I don't use 1 inch breakers. Homeline Panels are ok and are better then Siemens, GE, and Eaton BR; but are still residential grade. For the money I always go for QO and CH, I have never had a problem with either SD QO or Cutler Hammer CH series.

 

[fflintstone]

I might go with the homeline just to keep the same breakers as in the house. Since I built what WAS my vacation house 11 years ago, I only changed breakers once. I will be shifting the home breakers slightly to add a 30A DP breaker for a hot water heater. It has been a pain living with a 15 gal 120V hot water heater now that this is my only residence.
Still up in the air though.

I did run all the under slab cable for the shop today. I am glad to have that done.

 

[Norcal]

It has been a pain living with a 15 gal 120V hot water heater now that this is my only residence.
Still up in the air though.

If the water is hot why does it need to be heated??

 

[kmacht]

You know the cover screws are made to thread themselves in, right?

If they are supposed to be self tapping, the ones supplied with the panel definatly were not. I tried that first figuring that is why the holes weren't tapped. I ended up stripping the threads off of two screws. It was as if the metal the panel was made out of was harder than the screws. Maybe it was cheap screws or maybe the panel was supposed to be tapped, I don't know. All I know is that I had to buy another bag of screws and tapped the holes in the panel with a tap and die set in order to get it to go on.

Keith

 

[fflintstone]

I was at Lowes yesterday and didn’t find anything I liked at a price I wanted to pay.

 

[fflintstone]

I have pretty much decided on a square d home line so I have the same breakers as what is in my house. I was looking at about $100 for a contractor pack. I found this one at Menards for only $49 and it comes with 5 20A sp breakers. Only down side is it is only 20 spaces. I need 18 right off the bat. I was hoping for a 24 space box.

http://www.google.com/products/cata...og_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CDkQ8wIwBg#

I am having heart failure looking at service cable though.

 

[HetrickElectric]

I cant believe some of the remarks on here. I will NEVER install a Culter Hammer CH load center! The company I used to work for installed these. Complete JUNK! There were numerous times when I thought things were turned off and they weren't (Panel mislabeled) and I cut into a live wire. Flash, Bang, Sparks, ect figured the breaker should have trip so I cut into it again SAME thing. These breakers don't like to trip. If they cant detect a dead short what about an overload? I think Home line is over priced personally. From my experience the QO will trip the fastest and every time. I have had things buzzing from dead shorts with Homelines and take 5-10 to pop the breaker. If the home owner doesn't want to pay for QO I recommend Siemens/murray products. I like the CU bussing. I do wish the breakers fit in a little tighter.

 

[tfi racing]

Hmmmm.Sorry,but I don't think the breaker is the problem here.My advice is to not unknowingly cut live wires anymore,the next one may be your last...

 

[Mario]

My electrician does NOT recommend Siemens! The small "tabs" where the breaker connect to the bus bar are the same size and cound regardless if it's a 15 amp or a 60 amp. So he says any charge over 40-50 amp on the bigger breaker is going to overheat the tab/bus bar connection. He add to change the bus bar quite a few time!

He use (and pretty much everybody in town) Square D and Federal Pionner (Canada).

 

[hillbilly1]

I cant believe some of the remarks on here. I will NEVER install a Culter Hammer CH load center! The company I used to work for installed these. Complete JUNK! There were numerous times when I thought things were turned off and they weren't (Panel mislabeled) and I cut into a live wire. Flash, Bang, Sparks, ect figured the breaker should have trip so I cut into it again SAME thing. These breakers don't like to trip. If they cant detect a dead short what about an overload? I think Home line is over priced personally. From my experience the QO will trip the fastest and every time. I have had things buzzing from dead shorts with Homelines and take 5-10 to pop the breaker. If the home owner doesn't want to pay for QO I recommend Siemens/murray products. I like the CU bussing. I do wish the breakers fit in a little tighter.

Are you sure it was a Cutler Hammer "CH" breaker? I have never had more than a small flash when one of these was shorted, The Cutler Hammer "BR" on the other hand is the Westinghouse style, and will produce a large flash when shorted. The "BR" has a black handle, while the "CH" style has a tan colored handle. Big differences between the two.

 

[cnc-me]

Square D QOB, the bolt on ones, gets the nod for me.
PITA to move/replace breakers though. (mainly because power has to be off)
Square D QO clip on is OK, but have seen arc spots, on high current breakers before.

 

[787B]

I am an electrical engineer, but not a professional electrician. My unprofessional opinion is the SD QO is very, very good. I spent way more time than I should examining different breakers in the local big box stores over the years, and the QO just appears to be a better design. More robust mounting. Better features too with that trip indicator. Reading this thread seems to confirm that QO is the best as it's the only system that nobody has bad-mouthed. I'm glad I've got it in my house!

 

[Norcal]

I am an electrical engineer, but not a professional electrician. My unprofessional opinion is the SD QO is very, very good. I spent way more time than I should examining different breakers in the local big box stores over the years, and the QO just appears to be a better design. More robust mounting. Better features too with that trip indicator. Reading this thread seems to confirm that QO is the best as it's the only system that nobody has bad-mouthed. I'm glad I've got it in my house!

The breakers may be good but the panels are crappy, too much plastic for a loadcenter that is supposed to be the top of the line, sometime in the 1980's is where they went from being built like a brick Schimdthouse to going to Zinsco "quality".

 

[HetrickElectric]

I am positive they were CH the tan ones. They are not interchangeable with other breakers. I also know you shouldnt cut into live wires, you think I like ruining my tools doing so. My opinion the problem with the murray/siemens is that there isn't any type of anti corrosive grease on the breaker contact surface like the SD products. I always put some on the breakers before I install them. As far as the taps being small I can say I ever noticed any brand of breaker sizes to change with amperage. Correct me if I am wrong on that.

 

[fflintstone]

I finally bought one today. I picked up a 100A square D homline with 24 spaces. It came with 2 30A DP breakers and 3 20 SP breakers. It cost $75 @ Lowes. I chose it over the 20-space unit because I just didn’t think 20 was enough.