best you reread your policy
Negative sloped driveway flooded- help!
- Thread starter avsodha
- Start date
Walkers
Well-known member
No need. I am at the top of the mountain. If I am under water there are much bigger things to be concerned with.
In ten years when he needs it again it won't run from stale gas and a gummed up carb.OP, consider purchasing a small, portable water pump (of course I'll recommend a Honda) for emergency situations like this. Otherwise, what needs to be done has already been suggested.
Honda Pumps | General Purpose Water Pumps
Honda de-watering pumps are ideal for use in a wide variety of applications. Honda's centrifugal pumps offer outstanding performance & reliability.powerequipment.honda.com
It sounds like to me this is a once in every ten or twenty year experience. Plus he could buy the 6" diesel pump someone else posted and it probably wouldn't keep up in the same circumstances.
I am still on nothing, and buy insurance program, or move.
pitterpat
Well-known member
uhhh, that xtra small water pump IS NOT going to keep up. Also, you have to be home when it happens.OP, consider purchasing a small, portable water pump (of course I'll recommend a Honda) for emergency situations like this. Otherwise, what needs to be done has already been suggested.
Honda Pumps | General Purpose Water Pumps
Honda de-watering pumps are ideal for use in a wide variety of applications. Honda's centrifugal pumps offer outstanding performance & reliability.
rburke65
Well-known member
I don’t see a fix for your situation
slow
Well-known member
while I understand not wanting to post your personal address here, a google street view would be helpful to see the area nearby. a 3" honda pump is a good start to drain the basement after it floods, but I think you would need something much much larger to combat it while the rain is coming down.
dnschmidt
Well-known member
I saw a ton of this insanity in Texas. In a place well known for what the locals called "Texas Turd Floaters" (aka downpours) many of the houses were below street level. Worse yet they don't put sewers in the streets which to a Pittsburgher like myself seemed insane. I would think that the concept that water flows downhill would be firmly established by now. There is a reason why the rich guy ALWAYS lives on a hill. Back home in Pittsburgh the mill town of Sharpsburg would flood every year when the spring thaw came. Fox Chapel, on a big hill above Sharpsburg, where the rich guys lived, wouldn't flood if we had a Noah’s Arc event.
Jim_No_Garage
Well-known member
There are 2 houses around the corner from me with that same basic driveway configuration. Both of them have piles of wet stuff out at the curb awaiting tomorrow's "Special Ida flood related bulk pickup".
You can't defy laws of gravity and physics - forever.
Cheers
Jim
You can't defy laws of gravity and physics - forever.
Cheers
Jim
Metallitubby
Well-known member
Did you happen to see there are SIX pumps on the page? Obviously not. Our general de-watering pumps are for EMERGENCIES, and for you to realize there IS AN EMERGENCY, then SOMEONE has to be present. Rocket science this isn't.
Metallitubby
Well-known member
There are some geniuses on this forum.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
The biggest pump on that page still wouldn't keep up. 30'x60' spot that is the drive will get 4,488 gallons in a 4" rain. Sounds like it will keep up right? However you need to add that amount coming off the roof, add more from the yard, and add 10 times that coming off the street from the storm drains being full. It is not going to keep up.
Metallitubby
Well-known member
No one is asking it to "keep up". It's for general de-watering and to lessen the impact of the situation. If you or anything think that I was referring to a New Orleans-spec water pump, then you obviously misunderstood what I was recommending and why I was recommending it. A de-watering water pump is like a generator for emergencies, not to power the entire house for off-the-grid living. EMERGENCIES.
Again, telling people to "just move" isn't realistic. Finding a short-term solution for a short-term emergency is what would solve the problem for the... wait for it... SHORT TERM.
If it doesn't "keep up" why bother? If you are getting 20,000 gallons per hour what good does it do to remove 15,000 gallons an hour. You will be flooded just the same. It will not lessen the situation.
People move all the time for less reasons.
Daniel Dudley
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2009
- Messages
- 3,546
In NJ, I knew people who had houses that the water rose above street level for blocks. Was your whole neighborhood flooded, or was water rushing down the street and finding its way into your drive like runoff? You might be able to deal with runoff. True flooding not so much.
Also, what is your zoning? Are you required to garage your vehicles? I'm really sorry about your situation. It is best to be realistic, even if it is unsettling. I could live with periodic basement flooding if there was nothing down there to be damaged. Maybe.
Also, what is your zoning? Are you required to garage your vehicles? I'm really sorry about your situation. It is best to be realistic, even if it is unsettling. I could live with periodic basement flooding if there was nothing down there to be damaged. Maybe.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
If you flood a foot instead of three they still gut the walls, the carpet, and every thing setting on the floor.
Generator comparison is bad to, yes you don't ask the genny to power your AC but you do ask it to power your fridge, your well, and your heating source (blowers of NG or LPG furnace). Otherwise why have one???
I gave another option, fill it in. And just move is realistic. The average American live in their home 7 years.
Again, a little flooding is not a solution.
Its like wearing a condom with a hole in it and hoping she only gets a little pregnant, our you only get a little VD.
Edit, the more I think about the pictures, I doubt the largest honda pump would have even lessened the severity. The water came in so fast it either
A. Physically pushed the car over
or
B. Floated the car and it moved over
Either way, water coming in that hard and fast is not going to allow the property owner to even get the pump set up. In fact I would imagine any owned pump would be kept in the garage and would be flooded before it was even started.
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AP514
Well-known member
The OP does not show what is on the other side of his Home...might be as easy as putting on a 6" drain but with out pic's and some more input we can only guess..............
He said the other side was just like his.
AP514
Well-known member
So he bought a home in a Hole ??
I am talking the other side of his home like the backyard or what ever is on the oppisite side of his flooder drive
I'm still confused --- water runs down the drive every time it rains. Where is this water going and how?
I'm assuming there is a curb at the drive ... this can often be raised a bit. The curb can only do so much and obviously if 1' of water is running down the street no curb is going to work.
The house should have been designed for the 100 year flood limit based on the location and the building .... but, this will not factor the water from the street.
I'm assuming there is a curb at the drive ... this can often be raised a bit. The curb can only do so much and obviously if 1' of water is running down the street no curb is going to work.
The house should have been designed for the 100 year flood limit based on the location and the building .... but, this will not factor the water from the street.
ace10
Well-known member
If this is a duplex, even filling the driveway in up to grade isn't going to help in these extreme circumstances... the neighbor is going to flood, which means you're going to flood.
Even with both drives filled?
Water came WAY too fast- we were home at 8 pm and by 9 pm car was floating.
I sympathize with your problem. Until someone experiences a flood I don’t believe they understand how totally damaging they are.
What to do? I don’t know if there is a practical way to deal with ten inches of rain. What is behind the garage? Is it living space or backyard? If it is backyard does the backyard slope away from the house? If so could you put a big storm drain in your driveway, cover it with a grate to drive across and then empty the drain by having big tile or lines of some sort that run the length of your garage and then into your back yard?
But unless Your backyard drains away from the house I don’t know if there is a solution. I would hate to rely on expensive pumps which may not work anyway.
What to do? I don’t know if there is a practical way to deal with ten inches of rain. What is behind the garage? Is it living space or backyard? If it is backyard does the backyard slope away from the house? If so could you put a big storm drain in your driveway, cover it with a grate to drive across and then empty the drain by having big tile or lines of some sort that run the length of your garage and then into your back yard?
But unless Your backyard drains away from the house I don’t know if there is a solution. I would hate to rely on expensive pumps which may not work anyway.
rlitman
Well-known member
Ok, let's think this through.
First, the direct rainfall on the driveway. At an insane extreme of 3" per hour, that's around 560 gallons of rain in an hour. For a pump that's pushing 250 GPM, it's insignificant (under 4% of the pump's capacity).
Next, the other water sources. EVERYTHING should be graded away from the driveway. The roof, the lawn, EVERYTHING! So, the only source aside from rain to consider should be the street.
The sidewalk is effectively a weir, so this is easy to calculate. If the water at the street is 3/4" above your sidewalk, your 3" trash pump is doomed to be too small. Less than that, and perhaps it can keep up. Yep, a mere 3/4" of water cascading over that edge, and it's game over!
This is why I wrote what I wrote above. First, check the street storm drain grates. Obstructions can raise the street water level, and even a quarter inch may be all it takes. And second, sand bags around the driveway mouth should be plenty to allow a pump to keep up until the whole lawn is flooded and water finds another way to your foundation.
Worsedog
Well-known member
The issue in New Orleans was also a function of failure to maintain. My sister has two engineering degrees from Tulane. As her masters thesis, she built on her internship experience with the Army Corp of Engineers district office in NO. She examined the computer model and facilities for storm water mitigation. She said the biggest take away from that was the gross incompetence in management and maintenance of the facilities. Any city built that much below sea level is subject to flooding on every Saturday night when the drunks start puking in the streets.
Then computer model would miscalculate the volume of water to moved and apparently was based on a 100% operation rate of the pumps and stations. Based on the condition of the lift station facilities she rewrote part of the model with allowance for 30% more water flow and 20% failure rate of the pumping equipment.
While she was there in the late 80's, there is no telling if any real changes occurred. You know how the government spends money, pissed away on stupid **** and critical infrastructure suffers.
Worsedog
Well-known member
I saw the largest at almost 400 g/min. Are we missing something? That flood was probably 400 g/sec. into his driveway. And while it might reduce some of the volume, in his first post, seven(7) feet of water. All that pump would have been good for was the false hope of less damage.
CraigStu
Well-known member
I've re-read and re-looked at the pictures. From what I can see we have a street full of houses that 1st floor is typical 1-2ft above the grass/street level. This puts the garage/basement floor at least 6 ft below grass/street level. Let's just say there is a pump that could keep up w/ the water running down the driveway; where is it going to pump the water to? What do we think the chance is that there is an unoccupied piece of land nearby that can hold that water? For sake of discussion we can think of the garage/basement 25deep and 50 wide (both sides of the duplex) and water is 6ft deep. IF there is just enough water to fill it once, we need a hole w/ the same dimensions to hold it. So we can imagine a pool in the backyard of these same dimensions but guess what? The pool is already full. So maybe it is a drainage pond like we see in a lot of newly built neighborhoods in say Fl. But they are 20+ft deep and usually partially full. So just for this one house, we need a pond of at least double the depth dimension of the basement because it will usually be some % full. But the rain is raining into that pond just like it is raining all around. And if a pond existed I bet the OP won't be the only one pumping into it. So I am back to I see 3 choices. 1- Clean it all out, replace the car, and realize this may happen on occasion. There are a lot of people who live near the water, in hurricane prone areas, etc who decide it is worth it to them to stay. 2- To make staying less worrisome, replace the garage door w/ a wall and fill in the driveway. And pave a new driveway at ground level. Could 2 cars be parked in the new level drive? 3- Go w/ #1 but plan to sell and move in maybe 2 years when this is hopefully forgotten so you don't take a huge loss on the house. Best wishes to you in figuring what is best for you and your family.
We are not sure where all the water came from ?
When the sewer system floods and backs up into home it frequently shoots up the floor drain with enough pressure to blast against the 1st floor from a 3-4” pipe.
When there can be the river flow effect coming in the windows, driveway and street that is a lot more than the 3” rain per hour on the surface Itself.
As far a pumping ………….
Very approx:
4‘ deep . ... Surface Area = 1,800 square feet Volume = 81,000 Gallons
Then there’s the problem for water seeking its level………pump out 10.000 gallons 10k more flows in to seek level.
When the sewer system floods and backs up into home it frequently shoots up the floor drain with enough pressure to blast against the 1st floor from a 3-4” pipe.
When there can be the river flow effect coming in the windows, driveway and street that is a lot more than the 3” rain per hour on the surface Itself.
As far a pumping ………….
Very approx:
4‘ deep . ... Surface Area = 1,800 square feet Volume = 81,000 Gallons
Then there’s the problem for water seeking its level………pump out 10.000 gallons 10k more flows in to seek level.
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stickshift
Well-known member
Thanks for bringing a cool head and logic into this. It's easy to throw your hands up and say "It's hopeless, sell the house!". He's going to take a beating on a sale until memory of this event fades - which could be a long time. How many of us would buy a house in New Orleans unless it was very cheap given that we all remember Katrina?
OP can make this work, if he's willing to do the prep for every major tropical storm, and accept that for most storms, the prep will be wasted effort (in hindsight). In addition to the other prep, better plan to be home for these storms (not hard to do if you're in an area where the big storms are seasonal, e.g., Atlantic hurricane season - and even then, you can do trips on shorter notice b/c you'll know 1-2 weeks beforehand when there is some potential brewing), and better have a generator ready to go in case you lose power.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
How/where are you getting your numbers. There is 625 gallons in an inch of rain for every 1000 square ft. There is appoximately a 30x60 foot area of the drive and the little side slope or 1800 square feet. If we use your 3" that is 625x3x1.8=3375 gallons and hour.
That is just the drive/side yard. Add at least part of the neighbors roof and multiple times that is coming down the drive from the street. Even hondas pump is overwhelmed if you are home and have the reaction time to set it up.
rlitman
Well-known member
I'll admit to not scrolling to the top of the thread to take another look at the driveway's size, and went from memory of the typical sunken driveway's I walk past regularly, which are indeed a lot smaller. Still, there's NO way that's 30x60. Looking again now, I'd say more like 18x40, so 1350 gallons an hour, which is something pretty much any inexpensive sump pump can still handle, let alone the 3" trash pump example. But as I said above, this is all moot when lots of other area is draining into that driveway. That ridiculous retaining wall and lawn sloping into there is a recipe for disaster that's screaming for a properly engineered solution. At the depth we're looking at, the idea of a wall collapse killing someone due to water pressure behind it is very real, so simply raising the wall above flood levels may not be possible (not to mention the code issues and fall risks it then raises).
That permeable paved driveway too is a noble idea, and it probably collects most of the water most of the time, but isn't helpful when you've got saturated earth, so the fact that it works so well so often probably leads to complacency.
The added issue of this being a two family means that any preventative measures you take need to be mirrored, or they're for naught. In fact, if there's a structural wall in the middle of the basement, I hope it has the ability to fall apart easily in the event that a flood slams into one side well before another.
stickshift
Well-known member
Good point on that retaining wall. Saw someone in NJ had a mini-mudslide on their property during IDA when a retaining wall collapsed.
rlitman
Well-known member
Well, they installed a system like this to protect tunnels from freak storm water. But it cost millions of dollars and required vault like doors. I would expect that even 120MPH wind rated doors wouldn't stand a chance against three feet of flood waters, let alone seven feet, and I'm not sure how you could seal that anyway. Plus now you need to deal with the horizontal forces at the abutments, which could likterally shift your house on its foundation.
kj_mustang
Well-known member
The only way to deal with that much water in the future is to have a garage door in the back and a sloped area away from the house for the water to go to. Open up both doors and let it flow.
rlitman
Well-known member
If you're cut into a hillside, and have a housekeeping curb in the slab on the side of the garage to keep the flooding out of the house, yeah, that's possible. Can't say I've ever seen anything like it though. It would be akin to having a dam spillway run through your house. Of course, erosion on the downhill side now becomes a risk.
To the OP. I would raise the retaining wall between you and you neighbor. Make sure that water running off his property runs to the street, not just to the side walk and back around to your driveway. The wall on the left side of you drive is way too low. Any water your neighbor gets, go to your driveway.
The side walk in front of your property could be raised slight, and sloped slightly tothe street, but you probably need to deal with the city with that.
The side walk in front of your property could be raised slight, and sloped slightly tothe street, but you probably need to deal with the city with that.