Networking the garage

[Angelfire]

Hiya.
I'm completely ignorant when it comes to networking/IT etc... I've noticed a few threads where some of you appear to have mastered this skill so was hoping for a bit of advice. I am building a detached garage approximately 130' from my current modem and router. Here's what I'd like to do. I would like to get wired internet out to the garage and also provide wireless there. My long term plans would be to add cameras so would like to get all the networking in now with cameras to follow. I'm leaning towards PoE/IP cameras. So here's what I've come up with in terms of how to go about this and was hoping the collective could shoot holes in it. First, run ethernet (Cat5 or Cat6) out to the garage from the router at the house. In the garage, plug this into a PoE Switch similar to this one:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000QYEN1W/?tag=atomicindus08-20

This would allow for a few cameras but would also allow me to have some non-PoE hardwired devices. In one of those non PoE ports, I'd add an access point similar to this:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0035PS55O/?tag=atomicindus08-20

This would give me wireless in the garage as well. I have a VoIP phone system so would need another ethernet cable out to the garage to help with that but for now, I'm just concentrating on the cameras/internet/etc...

Does this sound like it will work well? Or have I absolutely proved I'm an ignoramus when it comes to networking?

Thanks for any inputs.

Cheers,
cc

 

[stonesfan68]

You'll be fine running CAT6 cable, but be sure to use cable that is rated for outdoor or underground use.

 

[Laker]

My garden shed is over 150' feet from my house. With a wireless 'N' router in a house window facing the shed, I have no problem connecting at decent speeds. Why hard wire it, when today's N routers kick *** with range and speed? Worse case is you buy a directional antenna (i.e.: TP-LINK TL-ANT2409A $30) in your home facing the garage and an extender (i.e.: Linksys RE1000 $90) and put it your garage facing your home. just my .02 YMMV.

 

[Angelfire]

Thanks. I want to hardwire because if I eventually do add cameras I want to make sure I have the bandwidth to transfer the data from them back to the house. Maybe Wireless N can do that, just not sure. I have wireless in the house now (I think it's N but may be G) and it doesn't reach the garage from a room that is closest to the garage. I've got a bit of a hill between the house and garage so that's not helping.

 

[Ryf]

you can trench in cat 5e or 6, either would be fine, as long as you get a "no-cuts" survey and know where your power wires etc are routed. I am going with wireless on mine, mostly so I also get wireless service for the phones in the yard as well, for me it is a double bonus. good luck! you might want to run one or two "extra" cat 5e/6, as well as cable TV/phone if you don't have those already, since your trenching already, low voltages can be thrown in together

 

[Hephaestus29]

Hiya.
I'm completely ignorant when it comes to networking/IT etc... I've noticed a few threads where some of you appear to have mastered this skill so was hoping for a bit of advice. I am building a detached garage approximately 130' from my current modem and router. Here's what I'd like to do. I would like to get wired internet out to the garage and also provide wireless there. My long term plans would be to add cameras so would like to get all the networking in now with cameras to follow. I'm leaning towards PoE/IP cameras. So here's what I've come up with in terms of how to go about this and was hoping the collective could shoot holes in it. First, run ethernet (Cat5 or Cat6) out to the garage from the router at the house. In the garage, plug this into a PoE Switch similar to this one:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000QYEN1W/?tag=atomicindus08-20

This would allow for a few cameras but would also allow me to have some non-PoE hardwired devices. In one of those non PoE ports, I'd add an access point similar to this:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0035PS55O/?tag=atomicindus08-20

This would give me wireless in the garage as well. I have a VoIP phone system so would need another ethernet cable out to the garage to help with that but for now, I'm just concentrating on the cameras/internet/etc...

Does this sound like it will work well? Or have I absolutely proved I'm an ignoramus when it comes to networking?

Thanks for any inputs.

Cheers,
cc

I believe Cat5e is now the min. standard in residential but I believe I would go ahead & run cat6 even though your Internet service provider has a lot to do with the speed.
Cat6 should be good for 300 ft. runs & will actually go about 330 ft. without a booster if I remember correctly.
I did go to school for electronic systems & worked for a phone co. for a little while but I have forgot a lot since I am now doing machine work & havn't kept up with the technology.

 

[Crazy68Dart]

My opinion is that is a long way for the 802.11 specification. Will it connect/work, yes, but your bandwidth will suffer.

If you can get a hardwired connection to the shop that will be much better in the long run. I would drop some conduit and pull through there with a spare wire and spare pull string for the future.

Add a decent wired/wireless router and you'll be set. If you are going to add cameras, etc. you'll save a lot of headaches.

 

[Falcon67]

I'm a wireless guy and for that, I say run a cable. I'm not going to vote for any $50 PoE switch however. I'm a Cisco / Dell guy so I'm going to recommend Linksys wireless routers. I don't have a recommendation on a cheap PoE switch. Buy that TREND unit and good luck is all I would say. The switch doesn't bother to say if it.s 802.3af compliant and your PoE cameras will require at least that. If you opt for PTZ cameras, then you'd most likely need a switch that can provide 802.3af + (plus). That'd be a big buck switch. What I would really recommend is a dual band wireless router with 4 Gig ports and use power bricks for your cameras.

 

[Angelfire]

I wasn't advocating the Trend product, just using it as an example to see if I was on the right track with regards to the networking side of it. I can't add another router as that would require another internet account (according to my provider) as I plan to run my main network in my house, where it is currently (ie. modem, router). My thinking, again, the ignorant network guy here, is to run one or two ethernets and a coax out to the garage and then use a switch similar to the one I posted to get all the feeds from cameras etc...back to the house.

 

[metaleltr]

If you can hard wire as much as possible. Shop equipment has a tendency to affect wifi connections, so much in fact that some paint companies (body shop) will not install wifi for the purposes of computerized paint mixing systems.

 

[EOC_Jason]

As others have said, you can run a hard-line to your garage easy enough. The outdoor rated cables are gel-filled.

I would hold off buying a PoE switch for two reasons. First, when you get cameras setup, it's really best to match the brand to the PoE switch because some companies have their own way of doing things and mixing brands can sometimes be bad because the power is on different pairs than expected. Second, you might end up getting a camera that doesn't support PoE, then you just spent extra money for nothing.

Have you looked into a DVR setup (they all have an ethernet port these days), the cable for regular security cameras is a coax and it has a pair of wires in another jacket that is bonded to the coax line. The cameras typically run off 12v...

Either way, you can put a switch in the garage for however many devices you may need, and a little wireless access point plugged into the switch will give you a wifi hotspot out there.

 

[Kevin C]

If you run a cable, make sure to put it in plastic conduit. A big help if you ever need to pull another / new cable.

 

[Blaisun]

I wasn't advocating the Trend product, just using it as an example to see if I was on the right track with regards to the networking side of it. I can't add another router as that would require another internet account (according to my provider) as I plan to run my main network in my house, where it is currently (ie. modem, router). My thinking, again, the ignorant network guy here, is to run one or two ethernets and a coax out to the garage and then use a switch similar to the one I posted to get all the feeds from cameras etc...back to the house.

i support your decision to go wired, for me, wireless is for stuff that moves like laptop, tablets phones etc... i wire in all my static items...

you can run another wireless router if you want, but instead of using the WAN port for the connection to the house, you would use one of the other ports for computers etc... you would need to turn off the DHCP server on one of the routers so they dont fight. you would also need to change the channel and ssid between the two routers for best performance.

if you only have one or two POE devices, you dont need a full poe switch, you can use a POE injector, do a cost comparison on what you can get too see if it makes sense

 

[lilscorpion]

I wired my pervious shop and used CAT6 and ran it through irrigation poly that I pulled/buried at about 2' (just after wiring the house). I was lucky to be able to run it straight between buildings so it was easy to remember where it was buried. Worked great. Used the keystone punch down jacks like below in about 4 jacks around the shop.

I've used both wired and wireless and I don't think wireless even competes. Probably the only benefit of wireless is how little effort it takes to put it everywhere. If you plan to stream music, surf heavily, or run Internet cameras, you'll probably want to go wired. Today I just use my 3G iPad. Someday I'll wire the shop again but it's not currently a priority (way, way, way down the list).

 

[EOC_Jason]

The only instance where I preferred wireless over wired was where I had to link up a DVR that was over 250ft away from the main router. Going underground just wouldn't have been possible because of several driveways and crossing other things.

On one building the antenna is mounted up high in a window, the other building the antenna is mounted outside. Link rate stay around 48-54Mb (it's only G)...

As long as you have wireless in a direct line of sight, you can get some good distance and still maintain speed. As soon as it has to go through walls things go downhill...

 

[lilscorpion]

If speed isn't your thing, and you don't mind wireless speeds, you might want to look into wireless network bridge. Basically they create a wireless bridge between two units and then you plug all of your network devices into the bridge. If you can get your primary wireless router to nearly be line of sight to the extender in the shop, you could hardwire your shop outlets and plug them into the extender and get fairly fast speeds. My house layout prevents me from running hard lines between my main floor and the basement where we have our home theater. I used an N bridge to connect the Internet and network storage devices to our XBox, the DVD, and the computer that streams music to the main floor sound system. It works flawlessly but, to be honest, we never run/use more than a single device at a time so I wouldn't say the throughput has been tested. If you do run hardline to your shop, look into an extender for the wireless. An extender allows you to re-broadcast your same wireless network (you have inside your house) using a different channel. As you walk between your shop and the house, wireless devices will detect the same signal on the alternate channel and attempt to "flip" to it once the newer signal become stronger than the one it was previously on. Strategically placed around your house/property, you can maintain near 100% signal and full speeds anywhere you go. They're slick and I have a few myself. This is the newer version of the ones I have. Each one can be either an extender or bridge.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B006V72AHC/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[Falcon67]

I wasn't advocating the Trend product, just using it as an example to see if I was on the right track with regards to the networking side of it. I can't add another router as that would require another internet account (according to my provider) as I plan to run my main network in my house, where it is currently (ie. modem, router). My thinking, again, the ignorant network guy here, is to run one or two ethernets and a coax out to the garage and then use a switch similar to the one I posted to get all the feeds from cameras etc...back to the house.

The cheapest "real" PoE switch I've seen runs nearly $600. The Dell units I buy are $1280.

No, you don't need another account.

InternetFeed<--->DSL/CableModem<--->HouseRouter/wireless<----->CableToShop<----->ShopRouter/Wireless

Your first router gives out 192.168.x.x addresses to any connected device, like a PC or laptop. Or, another router. It's just another device hung off the house router/switch. It'll have a 192.168.x.x address from the house unit on the infeed port and will give out the same on the back end. Usually the default is 192.168.1.something. If the shop router gets confused by that, change the DHCP addresses in the config to 192.168.2.somethings.

And - change ALL your default passwords, use a reasonable static key for your WPA/WPA2 Pre Shared Key security.

 

[lilscorpion]

Yep, I have three inside my cable modem. My ISP can't know how many I have without being able to see inside and they can't and shouldn't be able to. This is a common misconception.

 

[BHR4CE1]

Run Wires. It's always better. And run a few extra lines. You don't have to terminate your extra lines now, but you never know what you might want in the future, and CAT6 cable can be used for all sorts of other stuff. Be careful with POE stuff. Different manufacturers have different POE specs (Cisco and Netgear for example) and you will want to make sure your switches are compatible with your gear/cameras. I use AXIS network cameras all over my homes and really like them. Right now I am running 12 AXIS PTZ units and they work very well.

 

[sselander]

You should also consider a TV in the garage, besides coax, it should also have an Ethernet jack next to it. (2 would be better) Monoprice and Deepsurplus are good places to get networking stuff.

As far as the POE, Just put an electrical box up high near the ceiling with an ethernet jack near it for a wireless access point.

Once the walls go up, it make it more difficult to run the wiring.

Take pics of everything before the sheetrock goes up.

 

[where2]

When you are pulling your ug cat6 wires through the conduit you install, pull a piece of 095 weedeater line through the conduit and leave it in there as a fish tape for the wires of the future. Pull an extra length of cat6 as a fall-back wire and terminate it on both ends. You'll appreciate having the spare some day...

 

[Keep]

There are numerous posts on here about this subject, you will get opinions far and wide about which way to go.

Here is my suggestion.

Go to Lowes/Home depot and buy yourself a couple rolls (or 130ft) of the black irrigation pipe. Dig your trench and bury it.

Run 2 runs of cat 6 through your pipe.

Terminate both cables, add a small switch to the garage, if you want a small switch with POE check out Netgear, I use a couple of these at work to run a couple cameras and computers, no issues and they only cost $100 or so for an 8 port with 4 port POE.

Do not over think this, just keep it simple.

 

[Angelfire]

Thanks Folks for the help. Definitely trying to keep this simple but looking to the future as well. Conduits out there will definitely be in the plan although I have to be careful not to get my electrician into trouble with the inspectors as he doesn't show any comm's for this on his permit. Sounds like a little midnight trenching/backfill is in order! I'd like to just piggyback on his trench but I don't think it will be wide enough (12" separation required). We'll see. Either way I go, if I can get wires out there, then I can add whatever hardware is needed later. I do like the idea of just putting another router out there and going from there.
Appreciate you helping the networking noob out.

 

[Angelfire]

Ok. Gonna definitely run conduit out to the garage for 2 cat6 cables and a coax. Should I use the direct burial stuff in the conduit? I have yet to see an underground conduit that doesn't fill with water over time. And what should I be looking for in a cable? Solid Cu, stranded Cu, Cu clad Al, etc? Thanks much!

 

[djkeev]

Ok. Gonna definitely run conduit out to the garage for 2 cat6 cables and a coax. Should I use the direct burial stuff in the conduit? I have yet to see an underground conduit that doesn't fill with water over time. And what should I be looking for in a cable? Solid Cu, stranded Cu, Cu clad Al, etc? Thanks much!

Conduit, no question about it. Direct bury is easy but not fool proof over the test of time. No add on capacity in direct bury. Use bigger conduit than you need for the unknown electronic future.
For example whoever heard of CAT 6 or fiber optics 10 / 15 years ago? Who knows what tomorrow's "wire" of choice will be?

Dave

 

[EOC_Jason]

Typically solid is for keystone jacks (where you use a punch tool)... stranded is for regular jacks that you crimp (that go in the back of a computer or router)...

I would still get the direct burial stuff even if you run it in underground conduit. It's like jelly filled and keeps moisture out, so even if your conduit fills with water you won't have to worry about the cable.

 

[37ford4dr]

my only advice is run Big conduit.....i say this because my first run of 3/4 conduit turned out to be too difficult to fish lines through.....then I upsized considerably.....run the fish line through as you glue it together and life will be good.

 

[Angelfire]

Thanks folks. Yeah I'm looking at 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" conduit probably. And EOC_Jason, thanks for confirming what I thought about using the underground stuff inside the conduit as well as stranded vs. solid. Any thoughts on Cu only or Cu cladded Al in the cable?

 

[EOC_Jason]

I've only seen pure copper CAT5/6 cabling... I wouldn't think there would be that much of a cost savings. Signal quality is key so stick with the good stuff.

 

[whatuusay1]

Run Cat6 or Cat5e either will work - Cat6 is obviously more for future proofing. Do yourself a favor and put it in conduit with a stringer to pull more down the road if needed.

The trendnet POE Switch is fine - it will do exactly what you want. The idea you have is great, I see no flaws. I probably wouldn't use that wireless AP though, any cheap 802.11n router (with DHCP off, connecting via LAN segment) will be fine - those can be had for less than $40 all day long. I;d also probably lean towards a netgear POE switch vs trendnet by thats all in your brand experiences. Be aware some of the cheaper POE switches wont do full rated POE on all the ports, be sure the look at the manual and confirm before buying.

The advice here that you need to spend some crazy amount of money for a 'real' switch or skip POE altogether is a joke. 802.3af POE power is the same on any device that conforms to the standard - hence the standard. No the trendnet inst the same quality or have the same management features of a Cisco or (crappy) Dell or any other enterprise environment. Which is totally FINE - its a garage and you don't need to spend anywhere near that to add IP cameras and VoIP phones. The only advice I'd have is see what type of POE is required for the device you want to run - make sure its standard 802.3af which is almost always is - the exception being in enterprises that are running thin clients, large wireless access points with multiple radios and enterprise class PZT cameras - none of which are used in 99% residences. You could also tell him to VLAN out all his traffic - which is a good idea but totally overkill for 99% of homes. Keep it simple people

The cheapest "real" PoE switch I've seen runs nearly $600. The Dell units I buy are $1280.

No, you don't need another account.

InternetFeed<--->DSL/CableModem<--->HouseRouter/wireless<----->CableToShop<----->ShopRouter/Wireless

Your first router gives out 192.168.x.x addresses to any connected device, like a PC or laptop. Or, another router. It's just another device hung off the house router/switch. It'll have a 192.168.x.x address from the house unit on the infeed port and will give out the same on the back end. Usually the default is 192.168.1.something. If the shop router gets confused by that, change the DHCP addresses in the config to 192.168.2.somethings.

And - change ALL your default passwords, use a reasonable static key for your WPA/WPA2 Pre Shared Key security.