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Neutral to switch

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vrinner

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So my feeder line is 20' up and I am tying into that for power for my ceiling fans and some ceiling light. My switches for the fans and lights will be at ground level so figure 15 feet down.

Is it OK to run neutral and ground to the fan and lights
Then the hot I would run from the box to my switches, then the switches to the fan and lights
And also a ground to the switches

I guess I'm really asking is do I need to/why would I run neutral to the switch box to make this work. Or would I do it because of code and just not use it?

20211103_150322.jpg
 
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V

vrinner

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Think I answered my own question here...kind of.

But I should run a neutral to the switch box just in case I want to have another electrical outlet down there...right?
 
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alien

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Lots of smart switches and some dimmers require a neutral now. When swapping out a regular switch many people would tie the switch neutral to the ground. This would cause the ground to become a current carrying conductor and it is not supposed to be used that way. Code now requires a neutral at switch boxes whether needed at that time or not.
 
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egdede

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I've seen extra neutral romex and have smart switches that wanted a neutral. But I've been ignoring that those things. But OI am curious, does this mean no more simple switch-legs?
 
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yatg

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Also, neutral not required at a switch box if you're using conduit. Because you can put one in later if needed.
 
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sparky 1971

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It is code to have a neutral at almost all switch locations. There are exceptions, but it's usually easier to just do it. That being said, if it's my house and I'm fishing everything in, I'm probably not going to run the neutral because there is no way I am ever going to have anything more than a simple switch, dimmer, or speed control.
 
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mike93lx

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sparky 1971 said:
It is code to have a neutral at almost all switch locations. There are exceptions, but it's usually easier to just do it. That being said, if it's my house and I'm fishing everything in, I'm probably not going to run the neutral because there is no way I am ever going to have anything more than a simple switch, dimmer, or speed control.
Click to expand...
Electronic led dimmers (not even the fancy wifi stuff) often need a neutral.
 
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mike93lx

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sparky 1971 said:
I have yet to see that

I haven't seen one. Can you post an example.
Click to expand...
I looked up the ones I have installed and need to eat some crow. I run lutron maestro and skylark dimmers, it turns out neither need it. The leviton fan timers I use do require a neutral though
 
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sparky 1971

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theoldwizard1 said:
Actually I thought the code on new construction was ALL boxes ! They are selling a lot more 14/3 these days !
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Nope. I don't remember the exact wording, but ift wo three way switches are in the same room, one of them might not require a neutral. If conduit is in place, a neutral is not required, and I'm not sure if it's still code or not but it used to be that if a neutral could be fished in later, one wasn't required. I always thought the last one was dumb.

It's easier to just do it with new construction. I have always had a neutral at the switches so the code change didn't effect me at all.
 
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billconner

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So does newest NEC require a neutral in every box (with power)? I agree with good practice of doing it most places but a keyless porcelain in an uninhabitable attic or a storage room in a garage, just seems unnecessary and not unsafe - code purpose - without a neutral.
 
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nadogail

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As I understand it Neutrals are almost never switched or fused, the only exception I am aware of is GAS PUMPS, but my information just might be 50 years old.
 
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nadogail

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when I am running a circuit for a lighting fixture I typically pass the neutral through the switch box on the way to the light fixture.
 
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sparky 1971

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nadogail said:
As I understand it Neutrals are almost never switched or fused, the only exception I am aware of is GAS PUMPS, but my information just might be 50 years old.
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Switching the neutral has nothing to do with needing a neutral at a switch location. Some occupancy sensors, motion sensors, timers, and apparently dimmers need a neutral. If it's not needed, it's not used.
 
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sparky 1971

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billconner said:
Just Google "do dinners require a neutral". Smart home types seem to. https://www.smarthome.com/pages/what-to-do-if-you-dont-have-a-neutral-wire
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I understand that. I know smart home stuff requires all kinds of things. The schematic shown looks like it's a basic dimmer, but there is no part number for it. I want to see a normal every day dimmer that requires a neutral. I tried google and nothing came up that needed a neutral. I even looked at every style on the shelf at Menards....nothing.
 
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sparky 1971

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billconner said:
So does newest NEC require a neutral in every box (with power)? I agree with good practice of doing it most places but a keyless porcelain in an uninhabitable attic or a storage room in a garage, just seems unnecessary and not unsafe - code purpose - without a neutral.
Click to expand...
This is from the 2017 NEC, the 2020 is the same except the wording was changed to habitable rooms or occupiable spaces.


404.2(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads.

The grounded circuit conductor for the controlled lighting circuit shall be installed at the location where switches control lighting loads that are supplied by a grounded general-purpose branch circuit serving bathrooms, hallways, stairways, or rooms suitable for human habitation or occupancy as defined in the applicable building code. Where multiple switch locations control the same lighting load such that the entire floor area of the room or space is visible from the single or combined switch locations, the grounded circuit conductor shall only be required at one location. A grounded conductor shall not be required to be installed at lighting switch locations under any of the following conditions:

(1) Where conductors enter the box enclosing the switch through a raceway, provided that the raceway is large enough for all contained conductors, including a grounded conductor

(2) Where the box enclosing the switch is accessible for the installation of an additional or replacement cable without removing finish materials

(3) Where snap switches with integral enclosures comply with 300.15(E)

(4) Where lighting in the area is controlled by automatic means

(5) Where a switch controls a receptacle load.

The grounded conductor shall be extended to any switch location as necessary and shall be connected to switching devices that require line-to-neutral voltage to operate the electronics of the switch in the standby mode and shall meet the requirements of 404.22.

Exception: The connection requirement shall become effective on January 1, 2020. It shall not apply to replacement or retrofit switches installed in locations prior to local adoption of 404.2(C) and where the grounded conductor cannot be extended without removing finish materials. The number of electronic lighting control switches on a branch circuit shall not exceed five, and the number connected to any feeder on the load side of a system or main bonding jumper shall not exceed 25. For the purpose of this exception, a neutral busbar, in compliance with 200.2(B) and to which a main or system bonding jumper is connected shall not be limited as to the number of electronic lighting control switches connected.

Informational Note: The provision for a (future) grounded conductor is to complete a circuit path for electronic lighting control devices
 
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