new 200 amp service questions

[goatsnhogs]

Looking to run a new service to polebarn and future apartment. original house has 200 amps and 100 running to current detached garage/polebarn (future apartment/polebarn). Structure is on other side of driveway from original house and wire is not big enough to jump to 320 amp service. Service will be underground. I am responsible for everything from pole connection to building. PECO will make connection on pole. Distance from pole connection to meter will be about 350'. Waiting to hear back from electrician on cost for 200 amps. I asked for price on both 200 and 320 but he told me wire cost for 320 was almost $12,000 so that is out. Electric company minimum size specs say for single 200 amp service 4/0 ungrounded, 2/0 neutral. Once I get to building then I will split to apartment and shop. I will most likely put in conduit. Looking for recommendations so I can compare what he tells me or if there is anyone near Bucks County PA that can do the job let me know. I'm an operator so I can do digging/trenching. Thanks

 

[theoldwizard1]

Looking to run a new service to polebarn and future apartment. original house has 200 amps and 100 running to current detached garage/polebarn (future apartment/polebarn).

What size is the current wire ? Copper or Aluminum ?

I would do a careful load analysis before replacing what is there. Unless the apartment is going to be "all electric" and you are going to be running heavy loads in the pole barn at the same time, you might surprise yourself and find that 100A is adequate.

For reference 4/0,4/0 & 2/0 URD Sweetbriar Triplex Underground is $1.80/ft plus shipping.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Looking to run a new service to polebarn and future apartment. original house has 200 amps and 100 running to current detached garage/polebarn (future apartment/polebarn). Structure is on other side of driveway from original house and wire is not big enough to jump to 320 amp service. Service will be underground. I am responsible for everything from pole connection to building. PECO will make connection on pole. Distance from pole connection to meter will be about 350'. Waiting to hear back from electrician on cost for 200 amps. I asked for price on both 200 and 320 but he told me wire cost for 320 was almost $12,000 so that is out. Electric company minimum size specs say for single 200 amp service 4/0 ungrounded, 2/0 neutral. Once I get to building then I will split to apartment and shop. I will most likely put in conduit. Looking for recommendations so I can compare what he tells me or if there is anyone near Bucks County PA that can do the job let me know. I'm an operator so I can do digging/trenching. Thanks

Definitely need to do load calcs first.

SO u have a house, barn AND apartment?

Listing your specific electric loads would be helpful...

But since you have an electrician, he should be doing the load calcs for you.

What does that $12K cover? Just the underground lateral and main service panel? If so that is a bit steep considering you are doing the digging.

 

[goatsnhogs]

What size is the current wire ? Copper or Aluminum ?

I would do a careful load analysis before replacing what is there. Unless the apartment is going to be "all electric" and you are going to be running heavy loads in the pole barn at the same time, you might surprise yourself and find that 100A is adequate.

For reference 4/0,4/0 & 2/0 URD Sweetbriar Triplex Underground is $1.80/ft plus shipping.

apartment is going to be all electric. just me and my wife. I could probably get by knowing when I will be using more power in the shop and her not to run the dryer etc. but with hot water heater, ac/heat mini split, dryer, oven, a new service is probably way to go. I'm starting to look at propane appliances and water heater but I don't know if they would offer any saving or are as efficient. gas is not available. I got a price in November for triplex and it was $1.66/ft

 

[goatsnhogs]

Definitely need to do load calcs first.

SO u have a house, barn AND apartment?

Listing your specific electric loads would be helpful...

But since you have an electrician, he should be doing the load calcs for you.

What does that $12K cover? Just the underground lateral and main service panel? If so that is a bit steep considering you are doing the digging.

SO u have a house, barn AND apartment? YES

But since you have an electrician, he should be doing the load calcs for you. I ASKED FOR A FEW NAMES FROM FRIENDS. DON'T PERSONALLY KNOW HIM SO I THOUGHT I WOULD ASK FOR OPINIONS TO COMPARE. (HE DIDN'T ASK FOR LOAD) I JUST TOLD HIM 300' 200 AMP SERVICE.


What does that $12K cover? Just the underground lateral and main service panel? For install of 200 amp service from street to barn. HERE IS HIS ESTIMATE HE SENT ME JUST NOW:

Summary of work breakdown
• Dig and install of 3” PVC and pull wire
• Back fill
• Install meter can and electrical panel
Material cost $ 6,306.23( to start job )
Labor cost $4,200( pay at finish )
Total cost of job $10,506.00
Peco and inspection fees are not included at this time no way to determines without pulling the permit
If I dig there and additional $3,200 for operator and back hoe rent and drop off fee


seems quite expensive to me considering I got a quote for 4/0 triplex and 320' of conduit for $1150.00 from local electric supply house and can rent a machine for around $500.00.

as I said in the other post I can control usage between the barn and apartment. going with a mini split so I can heat/ac my shop with same unit

 

[nsula_country]

12k sounds very steep for secondary underground service. I could see this if it was primary with a pad mount transformer.

I'd keep 10k in my pocket and knock that out in a weekend!!

CT

 

[wyliesdiesels]

SO u have a house, barn AND apartment? YES

But since you have an electrician, he should be doing the load calcs for you. I ASKED FOR A FEW NAMES FROM FRIENDS. DON'T PERSONALLY KNOW HIM SO I THOUGHT I WOULD ASK FOR OPINIONS TO COMPARE. (HE DIDN'T ASK FOR LOAD) I JUST TOLD HIM 300' 200 AMP SERVICE.


What does that $12K cover? Just the underground lateral and main service panel? For install of 200 amp service from street to barn. HERE IS HIS ESTIMATE HE SENT ME JUST NOW:

Summary of work breakdown
• Dig and install of 3” PVC and pull wire
• Back fill
• Install meter can and electrical panel
Material cost $ 6,306.23( to start job )
Labor cost $4,200( pay at finish )
Total cost of job $10,506.00
Peco and inspection fees are not included at this time no way to determines without pulling the permit
If I dig there and additional $3,200 for operator and back hoe rent and drop off fee


seems quite expensive to me considering I got a quote for 4/0 triplex and 320' of conduit for $1150.00 from local electric supply house and can rent a machine for around $500.00.

as I said in the other post I can control usage between the barn and apartment. going with a mini split so I can heat/ac my shop with same unit

Seems a bit steep for materials but prices vary by region.

I would get at least 2 more quotes.

And IMHO 4/0 AL will be too small because of the distance and the perceived load. U may need 250McM...

I would do a load calc....and get 2 more quotes.

 

[goatsnhogs]

Definitely need to do load calcs first.

SO u have a house, barn AND apartment?

Listing your specific electric loads would be helpful...

But since you have an electrician, he should be doing the load calcs for you.

What does that $12K cover? Just the underground lateral and main service panel? If so that is a bit steep considering you are doing the digging.

Seems a bit steep for materials but prices vary by region.

I would get at least 2 more quotes.

And IMHO 4/0 AL will be too small because of the distance and the perceived load. U may need 250McM...

I would do a load calc....and get 2 more quotes.

I'm going to call a few others. aluminum or copper 250mcm? saw copper for 4.30/ft and aluminum for 1.03/ft. unless there was something different about them. thanks

 

[nsula_country]

Oh, they are very different!! Al is for all leads, Cu per lead!! 250MCM Al is affordable. Triple budget for Cu.

Still need a load calc done. 200a may be fine, may need 320a... I have 320a at our house. Wouldn't need more than 200a, except, in winter running both 27Kw tankless water heaters with 2 heat pumps and all electric appliances... Load Calc!!!

Shop has 200a, because it has its own meter, not because it needs it.

CT

 

[theoldwizard1]

I'm starting to look at propane appliances and water heater but I don't know if they would offer any saving or are as efficient.

Heating ANYTHING (air, food, water , wet clothes) with electric resistance heat is VERY EXPENSIVE ! Propane appliances might cost more to install, but they will be cheaper to operate in the long run. The biggest problem most people have with propane is the price swing during different parts of the years.


Living in a climate where the temps in winter can be well below freezing you need a backup plan for using a heat pump. You would be in a world of hurt without a backup and an ice storm knock you power out for a couple of days.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'm going to call a few others. aluminum or copper 250mcm? saw copper for 4.30/ft and aluminum for 1.03/ft. unless there was something different about them. thanks

ALuminum.

250Mcm copper is PRICEY...

the reason i brought up 250Mcm is because 4/0 was allowed for 200a service to a dwelling.

You arent just feeding a dwelling but also a barn and apartment and 4/0 AL is rated for only 180a but was allowed to be used for 200a dwelling services....

This is why u need to do a load calc.

And I agree with above. If u can switch some or all appliances to propane, it will save u some on wiring as well as give u options in an electrical outage....

Heating ANYTHING (air, food, water , wet clothes) with electric resistance heat is VERY EXPENSIVE ! Propane appliances might cost more to install, but they will be cheaper to operate in the long run. The biggest problem most people have with propane is the price swing during different parts of the years.


Living in a climate where the temps in winter can be well below freezing you need a backup plan for using a heat pump. You would be in a world of hurt without a backup and an ice storm knock you power out for a couple of days.

yeah with propane fired central heat, one would only need a small generator to power the blower and electronics vs. a heat pump.

 

[mrpizza]

That is expensive! I just had my power quoted, 870' underground 400A service, meter and pad for $5k.

 

[goatsnhogs]

You arent just feeding a dwelling but also a barn and apartment and 4/0 AL is rated for only 180a but was allowed to be used for 200a dwelling services....

.

this new service will only be for the apartment and barn. original dwelling already has 200 amp service which currently feeds a 100 amp subpanel for garage and barn that will be unhooked when new service is installed

 

[Norcal]

If you use a electric tankless water heater the size of the service will need to increase, as much as I hate propane that is the way to go for water heating, what type of WH was not mentioned but is a point to ponder.

 

[StevenMorgan]

More than I was expecting....

Mine was $1650 for 200a panel installed with the basic outlet + lightbulb for permit work approval. This included a through the roof galvanized pipe with weatherhead about 3' above my roofline for code clearance over my driveway and an overhead drop to the service pole.

 

[theoldwizard1]

yeah with propane fired central heat, one would only need a small generator to power the blower and electronics vs. a heat pump.

But for the other 99.999% of the time you are paying a lot to heat your home.

Heat pumps are the most efficient form of heating a home. Geothermal heat pumps are even better. The problem is, both are expensive to install and calculating "payback time" is very difficult.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

But for the other 99.999% of the time you are paying a lot to heat your home.

Heat pumps are the most efficient form of heating a home. Geothermal heat pumps are even better. The problem is, both are expensive to install and calculating "payback time" is very difficult.

not in california with our high electric rates.......

Cheaper to use NG or propane...

 

[jask]

not to hijack the thread but what are rates for electricity vs gas or propane in California Wyliesdiesels?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

not to hijack the thread but what are rates for electricity vs gas or propane in California Wyliesdiesels?

Well if youre stuck with Pacific Gasp & Extortion(Pacific Gas & Electric), the electric rates are .18267 cents/Kwh for the first 414Kwh (Tier 1) in the summer(winter is less Kwh). Then it goes to .24175 cents/Kwh upto 828Kwh of usage. Third tier is .40139 cents /Kwh....

Natural gas from PG&E is just above $1/therm...I can run my gas heater in the winter for about $50/month.

Electric would be a whole lot more....

Dont know the rates from other PoCos...

 

[jask]

WOW!! that is painful... I am in B.C. and we are at (Can $) 8.58c/Kwh for the first 1350 KWh over 60 days.. and up to 12.87c per KWh over 1350 per 60

our gas rates are about 95c Canadian per therm... our heating days are a whole lot different and I have a big house so it is not unusual to see a couple 200$ month each winter when it is -15 or -20 F

 

[goatsnhogs]

update:

mini excavator- $390.00
3" conduit and sweeps- $326.00
750' (2x375') 250xhhwal, 375' 4/0 - $808.00
electrician for wire pull, meter and panel box, misc finishing, inspection - $2800.00

i installed conduit over the weekend, wire going to be pulled on Friday. not as bad as I thought it was going to be. thanks for the help

 

[NUTTSGT]

Awesome to hear that you did a lot yourself. It's always great to do stuff yourself so you can put $$$ elsewhere and get more for your money.

 

[ard]

And you got to play with the excavator!

 

[goatsnhogs]

wire pulled and installation done on the 26th. inspection was on the 31st. now waiting for power co to connect. thanks