New Air Conditioning spec question

[Junkman]

In our new HVAC system, it is now time to spec the outdoor units. The contractor is pushing the Rheem units in either 13 SEER or 15 SEER ($500 additional). The air handlers are already installed, and they have the A coils installed from the factory. My questions are:
1) What are the better brands (3 ton condenser) ?
2) Are dual stage units worth the extra cost in CT/MA, where we don't get more than a few days of sweltering temperatures during the summer?
3) The contractor wants to use the "press" fittings to hook everything up. I was told that brazing was the better method. Your thoughts on this.
4) Would it be wise to hold off on the install, until the warmer weather is here (April or May)?
5) If I decide to hold off, and not have the contractor install the 2 condensers, would it be better to buy them locally, or buy them from the internet and find someone in the trade to install them? How complex of a job is this?

I just found the specifications on the air handler on line. My models are 3HBXB-HW (high efficiency). There are 2 units, one for each floor of the home.

http://www.firstco.com/getattachmen.../HBXB-HW-(High-Efficiency)/hbxb-hw714-(2).pdf

 

[Brian_WK]

1. Brands are only as good as the installer. Any of the top brands and their sister companies will be fine and should be able to find parts claim warranty in 10 years. Trane goodman, carrier Payne Bryant heil, Rheem ruud. Only issue you might be running into is that you have A coil already installed they are sized accordingly.
2. Dual stage. Pros can help on dehumidification and efficiency of sized correctly. Cons adds complication and cost to the system and if not sized correctly no added benifit.
3.I had to google press fittings for refrigeration (haven't done an install in 3 years since I switched trades) but looks like they are backed by sporland who I consider a good valve maker.
4. 5. Wait and shop contractors. Get as many bids as you can you have time. Buying equipment and hiring can be risky as some contractors take no liability on these kind of installs and getting warrenty work can get messy.

Brian

 

[LS6 Tommy]

If the evaporators are all ready installed, you need to use the condensing units that are matched to them. Installing a 15 seer condensing unit with a 13 SEER evaporator negates the extra SEER of the condensing unit. You end up with a lower than 13 SEER system and reduced overall cooling capacity.

Tommy

 

[Milton Shaw]

The new Parker Pro Press fittings are a proven connection and are a lot easier to install and you don't have to purge the system with nitrogen while brazing the connections. The equipment to do the fittings right is about $3500 but once the installer has them the really speed the work up. In large cities you have to get fire permit and have a fireman on watch any time you are working on the system, this really adds to the cost of hooking up units and is why the ProPress fittings were made in the first place.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

The new Parker Pro Press fittings are a proven connection and are a lot easier to install and you don't have to purge the system with nitrogen while brazing the connections. The equipment to do the fittings right is about $3500 but once the installer has them the really speed the work up. In large cities you have to get fire permit and have a fireman on watch any time you are working on the system, this really adds to the cost of hooking up units and is why the ProPress fittings were made in the first place.

That sounds like a hell of a racket having to have a hot work permit and the fire dept standing by,that or a lot of guys are just really bad with a torch!
If those fittings look anything like the pro press plumbing fittings I'll stick with sweating fittings on.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

If the evaporators are all ready installed, you need to use the condensing units that are matched to them. Installing a 15 seer condensing unit with a 13 SEER evaporator negates the extra SEER of the condensing unit. You end up with a lower than 13 SEER system and reduced overall cooling capacity.

Tommy

 

[sms1974]

1. Brands are only as good as the installer. Any of the top brands and their sister companies will be fine and should be able to find parts claim warranty in 10 years. Trane goodman, carrier Payne Bryant heil, Rheem ruud. Only issue you might be running into is that you have A coil already installed they are sized accordingly.
2. Dual stage. Pros can help on dehumidification and efficiency of sized correctly. Cons adds complication and cost to the system and if not sized correctly no added benifit.
3.I had to google press fittings for refrigeration (haven't done an install in 3 years since I switched trades) but looks like they are backed by sporland who I consider a good valve maker.
4. 5. Wait and shop contractors. Get as many bids as you can you have time. Buying equipment and hiring can be risky as some contractors take no liability on these kind of installs and getting warrenty work can get messy.

Brian

Trane is not the same as Goodman...

Trane and American Standard are the same product...

other wise your good... the sporlan press fitting are good but someone is going to pay for them and it wont be the contractor eating that cost.

 

[Junkman]

If the evaporators are all ready installed, you need to use the condensing units that are matched to them. Installing a 15 seer condensing unit with a 13 SEER evaporator negates the extra SEER of the condensing unit. You end up with a lower than 13 SEER system and reduced overall cooling capacity.

Tommy

I called the air handler manufacturer, and was told that the A coil could handle a 13 to 16 SEER condenser, however, without knowing the specifications of the condenser, he couldn't give me any more information. I was told that I would have to input the brand, model number, SEER number, EER number, cooling capacity, heating capacity, HSPF, before I could get the Certified Reference Number. I have no idea of what all this information is. The only thing that I do know, is that it is an additional $500 for each unit to go from a 13 SEER to the 16 SEER. The Rheem units are RA1336AJ1NA (13 SEER) and RA1636AJ1NB. Total installed cost for the 13 SEER pair is $6000 and for the 16 SEER $7000. I looked up the cost of the two units on the internet, and when I figure in the cost of the line sets, etc., it appears that they are a little more than doubling the cost of materials for the installation. I am just not certain if they are hosing me or not. I understand business, and profits, but what I don't know is how much labor is involved. Remember, this figure is for the condenser, line set, refrigerant, and installation. I am not certain if the electrician is an extra.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Trane is not the same as Goodman...

Trane and American Standard are the same product...

other wise your good... the sporlan press fitting are good but someone is going to pay for them and it wont be the contractor eating that cost.

I think he was saying they're all the same quality wise,although I really hate cleaning condenser coils on train wreck/American Standard stuff myself.

 

[Gila Monster]

I called the air handler manufacturer, and was told that the A coil could handle a 13 to 16 SEER condenser, however, without knowing the specifications of the condenser, he couldn't give me any more information. I was told that I would have to input the brand, model number, SEER number, EER number, cooling capacity, heating capacity, HSPF, before I could get the Certified Reference Number. I have no idea of what all this information is. The only thing that I do know, is that it is an additional $500 for each unit to go from a 13 SEER to the 16 SEER. The Rheem units are RA1336AJ1NA (13 SEER) and RA1636AJ1NB. Total installed cost for the 13 SEER pair is $6000 and for the 16 SEER $7000. I looked up the cost of the two units on the internet, and when I figure in the cost of the line sets, etc., it appears that they are a little more than doubling the cost of materials for the installation. I am just not certain if they are hosing me or not. I understand business, and profits, but what I don't know is how much labor is involved. Remember, this figure is for the condenser, line set, refrigerant, and installation. I am not certain if the electrician is an extra.

So are those quotes just for the outside condensing unit? Or is that the complete package with new air handler?


FWIW, I replaced my outside condensing unit a few years ago with a Trane, 3 ton and reused the existing Trane air handler. Had a friend that's been doing AC work for about 20 years, now has a desk job with one of the major manufacturers do the work.

Been working great for several years now, cost around $2600 out the door for everything.

 

[Radix2]

My input is that in the north where there are few and low power uses of Airconditioning high seer units will not pay off. Stick with simple and less expensive IMO.

 

[Junkman]

So are those quotes just for the outside condensing unit? Or is that the complete package with new air handler?


FWIW, I replaced my outside condensing unit a few years ago with a Trane, 3 ton and reused the existing Trane air handler. Had a friend that's been doing AC work for about 20 years, now has a desk job with one of the major manufacturers do the work.

Been working great for several years now, cost around $2600 out the door for everything.

2 Condensing units, 2 line sets and 2 TVX valves.

 

[joel63]

My input is that in the north where there are few and low power uses of Airconditioning high seer units will not pay off. Stick with simple and less expensive IMO.

^^^^ What I always advise a customer. ^^^^^

 

[Ohmthis]

My input is that in the north where there are few and low power uses of Airconditioning high seer units will not pay off. Stick with simple and less expensive IMO.

This, you may never get a return on your investment by going to a higher seer. Here we are required to install no less than 14 seer, although there are a lot of 13's still going in.

 

[sms1974]

I think he was saying they're all the same quality wise,although I really hate cleaning condenser coils on train wreck/American Standard stuff myself.

There's a lot of difference in quality between brands... you can't lump Goodman ( the worst sh!t on the market ) in with Trane / American Standard or even the Carrier and there sister brands...

I don't understand how you can hate cleaning condenser coils on Trane / American Standard equipment??? It's spine fin washes out easier than a typical plate fin coil we seldom have to use anything more than a hose unlike a plate fin that often needs a foaming acid to push the junk out from inside the fins...

I guess to each there own but I'm sure the one thing we will agree on is the best equipment poorly installed will not last as long as the worst equipment properly installed... Price shouldn't be the only factor used when making a decision on something your going to keep for 15-20 years...

 

[Gila Monster]

There's a lot of difference in quality between brands... you can't lump Goodman ( the worst sh!t on the market ) in with Trane / American Standard or even the Carrier and there sister brands...

I guess to each there own but I'm sure the one thing we will agree on is the best equipment poorly installed will not last as long as the worst equipment properly installed... Price shouldn't be the only factor used when making a decision on something your going to keep for 15-20 years...

+1

I know this is the standard line from every HVAC tech, that it's all in the techs hands and has nothing to do with the manufacturer, but it's just not true.

It's a sales line because they don't want to lose business because they don't work with a certain brand.

Of course there are differences in quality with different brands, are we really supposed to believe this for every other consumer product but not HVAC? I guess everything can now be outsourced to China since it doesn't matter anymore, it's all the techs shoulders?

Obviously, an incompetent tech can screw something up, but that's true with anything.


Look up the problems Carrier had when they introduced their Infinity line and tell me all those problems were because of improper installation.


A PROPERLY installed AC system has quality differences based on the brand or model. Period.

 

[mrpizza]

Give me the model from your air handler and coil and the outdoor units and ill pull the ahri ratings for you here at work.

 

[Junkman]

Give me the model from your air handler and coil and the outdoor units and ill pull the ahri ratings for you here at work.

Thanks for the offer. I posted all the information that I have above, the air handler numbers, and the Rheem condenser number. If you can work with those numbers, great, but if not, I understand.

I just found the specifications on the air handler on line. My models are 36HBXB-HW (high efficiency). There are 2 units, one for each floor of the home.

http://www.firstco.com/getattachmen.../HBXB-HW-(High-Efficiency)/hbxb-hw714-(2).pdf

The Rheem units are RA1336AJ1NA (13 SEER) and RA1636AJ1NB.

 

[Brian_WK]

+1

I know this is the standard line from every HVAC tech, that it's all in the techs hands and has nothing to do with the manufacturer, but it's just not true.

It's a sales line because they don't want to lose business because they don't work with a certain brand.

Of course there are differences in quality with different brands, are we really supposed to believe this for every other consumer product but not HVAC? I guess everything can now be outsourced to China since it doesn't matter anymore, it's all the techs shoulders?

Obviously, an incompetent tech can screw something up, but that's true with anything.


Look up the problems Carrier had when they introduced their Infinity line and tell me all those problems were because of improper installation.


A PROPERLY installed AC system has quality differences based on the brand or model. Period.

I just said any major brand. Yes if you find some back alley no name stuff you are going to have issues. Anything with a good warranty and has been around for the last 20 years is going to be fine and no more noticeable quality then the next as they are all pretty much built to be cheap. You are not going to get 40 years out of an air conditioner like the one that was installed in your parents house in the 70's.

Some of the more cutting edge tech is going to have issues just like anything and cost more to fix when it fails.

My Biggest issue in brand difference is picking the one with the best ease of service and must have a scroll compressor with a low RPM condenser fan. I prefer the new all aluminum radiator style condensers offered by many brands due to being stupid easy to wash although they rarely ever need it unless you live in a heavy cottonwood tree area. Only down side is they are pretty much non repairable if they get punctured. Its a full coil replacement.
I don't care what the guy said about the trane spin fins you cant just wash them with water as you have to disassemble them top and sides to get them properly cleaned otherwise the cotton hangs between the shroud and the coil. The fin on tubes only need that if they have a multi layer coil and need to be spilt. No coil needs cleaner unless they are greasy. Only a hose and water.

Brian

 

[mrpizza]

Firstco rates the 13 seer one as 13 seer, 11 eer. The 15 seer one is rated as 14.5 seer and 12.5 eer.

Ahri does not have the combination listed.