New Building Insulation Question

[Mdaddyrabbit]

Hey folks, I just joined this site. I had my building completed today 06/19/2016 it's a 30x48x12 metal with what looks to be 48' centers or close to 48. I want to insulate so I can heat and cool with some efficiently. What do you suggest is the biggest bang for the buck? What type of product and size should I use?

Thanks! I am so excited to have a new building.

 

[readhead]

What type of construction? Where are you located?

 

[Bronson]

Not near enough information.

 

[lakeroadster]

Welcome and congrat's on your new building.

To make it easier for us to help you, help us by posting up some photo's of the building, both inside and outside. (Each photo saves you from typing 1,000 words )

Then post up your location.

Then tell us the intended use.

 

[Mdaddyrabbit]

I am in North Carolina about 70 miles from the coast.

 

[rburke65]

Spray foam insulation is the only thing I can think of. Ya need away to avid the insulation batts to the metal.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Spray foam insulation is the only thing I can think of.

The FIRST LAYER should be spray foam. At an absolute minimum, you want all the joints/connections done. Light shinning is is bad. That means heat and cold can get in. It would be better if you just did 2" of spray foam on the entire interior.

The second layer, you have lots of choices. Some of the choice depend on how you are going to finish the interior walls/ceiling. If you are going to put up drywall/OSB on the walls, then you could use roll fiberglass or even "wet" applied cellulose. If you can find a supplier nearby reclaimed foam board is excellent and reasonably priced.

Some of these choice need certain preparation done BEFORE the spray foam is applied.

 

[DougWil]

I would 1st think about how you are going to attach interior sheeting to framing 48" on center??

Sheet rock or OSB won't work without adding vertical framing between what you have, ribbed steel roofing horizontally will. Expensive, but you save all the framing, sheeting, taping, mudding and painting costs.
Time consuming to install if you want it to look, nice, neat and not gappy around wall outlets etc.

Spray foam directly on the interior side of your exterior sheeting will make that sheeting very difficult to replace if it is damaged somehow. Since it will all be glued together. And spray foam is expensive.

You also appear to missing exterior trim and/or enclosure foam rubber strips and that is why you have all that sunlight infiltration.
Gotta seal up all that 1st.
You have to eliminate air infiltration or your insulation won't be very effective. Caulk or spray foam out of a can any and all air leaks in the walls to slab etc...

Because of the high thermal conductivity of steel, you are going to have a lot of heat loss right though the framing and steel skin.

If it was mine, I would wire it. Put up 4x8 or 4x12 sheets of 2" XPS rigid foam, followed by horizontal ribbed steel. That foam will create a great thermal break.
I would leave off the last row of ribbed steel and fill the cavity from the top with blow in cellulose. put fiberglass or Roxul in the last foot and seal it up with the last sheets of XPS and steel.

You might be able to put all the XPS and steel on and fill it, dunno without better pics.

Same deal for the ceiling XPS and ribbed sheeting.
Is "attic" vented?
Is there access to install insulation after being sheeted?

 

[Mdaddyrabbit]

I have the opportunity to buy 60 2" 4x8 sheets of R-12 rigid insulation for $600.00. Think that is the way to go?

 

[DougWil]

I have the opportunity to buy 60 2" 4x8 sheets of R-12 rigid insulation for $600.00. Think that is the way to go?

Well I would put rigid over the framing no matter what I sheeted the inside with to create that thermal break.
But you need to fill the created cavity space too.

Is the insulation a great deal?
If so, buy it.

I buy XPS from a local manufacturer. They sell there miscut, odd, overrun sizes very cheap and always load me up with free sheets with dinged up corners etc...
I love the stuff!!

 

[Mdaddyrabbit]

I can buy it for $10.00 a sheet

 

[DougWil]

I can buy it for $10.00 a sheet

What type of foam is it?

2" XPS is only R 7.7 at typical density. You can get slightly higher R value with denser foam.

Urethane is far higher R value per inch,,,, I think about R11 for 2".
And $30-40 a sheet.

 

[Mdaddyrabbit]

The person states it has R12 on it and it's 2" 4x8 sheets for $10.00. I also been looking at this http://www.insulation4less.com/Insulation4lessProduct-1-Prodex-Total-48-Inch.aspx

This is R-16

Let me know what you think?

 

[DougWil]

The person states it has R12 on it and it's 2" 4x8 sheets for $10.00. I also been looking at this http://www.insulation4less.com/Insulation4lessProduct-1-Prodex-Total-48-Inch.aspx

This is R-16

Let me know what you think?

Again, you have to know what kind of insulation the guy is selling.

You got to be able to screw though the interior siding/sheeting and foam into the framing. The thicker the foam the harder it is to aim the screw.
The linked insulation is rolled polyethylene foam, not rigid foam.
The idea of rigid is to create a temporary cavity to fill with blow in.
A flexible roll insulation would just bulge out.

 

[Dragfluid]

The person states it has R12 on it and it's 2" 4x8 sheets for $10.00. I also been looking at this http://www.insulation4less.com/Insulation4lessProduct-1-Prodex-Total-48-Inch.aspx

This is R-16

Let me know what you think?

Please don't get suckered into that ****.
It doesn't have any R value. There's been countless discussions on that stuff here and everywhere.

 

[Mdaddyrabbit]

Anyone got an opinion on adding this and then insulation?

http://www.atticfoil.com/index.php/applications/inside-exterior-walls-hotmixed-climates/

 

[Mdaddyrabbit]

I have read and did an in depth study on insulation since asking this question. I think I have narrowed it down to two products.

One of these two

Radiant barrier and then this insulation
https://www.lthsteelstructures.com/standard-reinforced-w-batt-rolls

or

Tiger Foam
http://tigerfoam.com/sprayfoaminsul...er-foam-fast-rise-formula-600-board-foot-kit/

 

[DougWil]

I have read and did an in depth study on insulation since asking this question. I think I have narrowed it down to two products.

One of these two

Radiant barrier and then this insulation
https://www.lthsteelstructures.com/standard-reinforced-w-batt-rolls

or

Tiger Foam
http://tigerfoam.com/sprayfoaminsul...er-foam-fast-rise-formula-600-board-foot-kit/

You have about 3300 sq ft of walls and ceilings not subtracting for doors and windows.

One of those 'Tiger" foam kits does about 600sq ft at 1" thick.
Going to take 6 kits to put 1" of foam on all the walls and ceiling,if you had a ceiling. Since you would have to put it on the underside of the roof, say 8 kits at only 1" thick, which is about R7.
R7 isn't much insulation, so double it to R14, which still isn't much
Now you are up to 16 kits at $9,200.

You have now created a great air barrier, but you have glued the entire structure together with foam making replacing a exterior panel very difficult to impossible.
Plus you haven't installed any interior sheeting, or is lumpy spray foam your finished interior?
Nor unless you foam the interior face of the wall framing reduced the thermal transfer of heat through the metal framing and skin.

All of the above and more is why it is expensive to insulate simple shell buildings that have framing at 4ft or more on center. Nothing fits or will span that framing but ribbed metal unless you infill the framing with more framing to reduce it to 24" OC.

And we still have even talked about electrical or lighting in your foam cave.

 

[ItsNemo]

Also keep in mind any foam product needs to be covered from a fire safety point of view. If it ever catches those fumes will knock you out cold in no time.

 

[Mdaddyrabbit]

This metal building seemed like it was at the price that I could afford at the size I needed. At this point I am stuck with this shell cave. I just want to make it usable for my needs. What did you think about the other choice?

You have about 3300 sq ft of walls and ceilings not subtracting for doors and windows.

One of those 'Tiger" foam kits does about 600sq ft at 1" thick.
Going to take 6 kits to put 1" of foam on all the walls and ceiling,if you had a ceiling. Since you would have to put it on the underside of the roof, say 8 kits at only 1" thick, which is about R7.
R7 isn't much insulation, so double it to R14, which still isn't much
Now you are up to 16 kits at $9,200.

You have now created a great air barrier, but you have glued the entire structure together with foam making replacing a exterior panel very difficult to impossible.
Plus you haven't installed any interior sheeting, or is lumpy spray foam your finished interior?
Nor unless you foam the interior face of the wall framing reduced the thermal transfer of heat through the metal framing and skin.

All of the above and more is why it is expensive to insulate simple shell buildings that have framing at 4ft or more on center. Nothing fits or will span that framing but ribbed metal unless you infill the framing with more framing to reduce it to 24" OC.

And we still have even talked about electrical or lighting in your foam cave.

 

[Mdaddyrabbit]

What would you do? Foam or Fiberglass

Also keep in mind any foam product needs to be covered from a fire safety point of view. If it ever catches those fumes will knock you out cold in no time.

 

[bjcouche]

Here's what I DID.
My pole building has posts spaced at 16' with horizontal boards going between them. The exterior metal is installed vertically (yours is installed horizontally). My spacing between the horizontal wood supports is between 3-4' which does not lend itself to sheeting with 4x8 panels. I would have had to frame in the entire inside with studs, and at that point I would have been better off having the building stick built.
I had the entire inside spray foamed at 2" thick with CLOSED CELL insulation for a numerical R value of 14. IMHO, because the foam completely seals out the air, a R14 in foam beats an R21 in fiberglass in insulating performance. I'm now in the process of installing white "liner panel" to the inside to cover the foam. The liner panel is basically just the same type of metal as the outside, possibly thinner metal. I'm doing all my electrical wiring on wall surface in conduit, not inside the wall.
In your case I would install a horizontal wood or metal stud between your 48" posts around the perimeter of the building. I'd place it about 4' off the floor. That way after you have your interrior metal installed, and you want to mount something to a wall, you know that 4' up there's a stud behind the wall to mount to.
It is true, that the foam glues your panels in place. It stops your building from rattling like a tin can with the slightest breeze. It is also true that it makes it difficult to replace an exterior panel should one become significantly damaged. To those people, I would ask how often they replace panels?
Do not buy those 600 board feet DIY spray foam kits for this large of a project. Call around to insulation companies, many of them do spray foam. It will be much cheaper to pay them to come in with their bulk spray foam truck and spray the entire building in 1 day. Spray foam is still expensive compared to fiberglass, but IMHO, it's well worth it.
Oh, and for your ceiling... If you use metal liner panel on the bottom of your metal rafters, then you'll essentially have an attic. If the attic is vented, you could then blow in fiberglass or cellulous insulation and have that sit on the ceiling. I think you'd need a vapor barrior between the metal and insulation. That would save you the money of spray foaming the roof. Plus, not having spray foam on the roof lets you do roof or leak repairs easier.

Brian

 

[BADSIX]

I'm wondering why you or the builder didn't put an insulated vapor barrier on the roof as they do pole building here. with out that your going to need a rain coat inside when it starts to sweat.
bjcouche has the right idea, also try a commercial insulator for the foam
Jay D.

 

[Mdaddyrabbit]

They did put a radiant metallic barrier in the roof of my building.

I'm wondering why you or the builder didn't put an insulated vapor barrier on the roof as they do pole building here. with out that your going to need a rain coat inside when it starts to sweat.
bjcouche has the right idea, also try a commercial insulator for the foam
Jay D.

 

[Mdaddyrabbit]

Thanks Brian, I have to make some big decisions.

Here's what I DID.
My pole building has posts spaced at 16' with horizontal boards going between them. The exterior metal is installed vertically (yours is installed horizontally). My spacing between the horizontal wood supports is between 3-4' which does not lend itself to sheeting with 4x8 panels. I would have had to frame in the entire inside with studs, and at that point I would have been better off having the building stick built.
I had the entire inside spray foamed at 2" thick with CLOSED CELL insulation for a numerical R value of 14. IMHO, because the foam completely seals out the air, a R14 in foam beats an R21 in fiberglass in insulating performance. I'm now in the process of installing white "liner panel" to the inside to cover the foam. The liner panel is basically just the same type of metal as the outside, possibly thinner metal. I'm doing all my electrical wiring on wall surface in conduit, not inside the wall.
In your case I would install a horizontal wood or metal stud between your 48" posts around the perimeter of the building. I'd place it about 4' off the floor. That way after you have your interrior metal installed, and you want to mount something to a wall, you know that 4' up there's a stud behind the wall to mount to.
It is true, that the foam glues your panels in place. It stops your building from rattling like a tin can with the slightest breeze. It is also true that it makes it difficult to replace an exterior panel should one become significantly damaged. To those people, I would ask how often they replace panels?
Do not buy those 600 board feet DIY spray foam kits for this large of a project. Call around to insulation companies, many of them do spray foam. It will be much cheaper to pay them to come in with their bulk spray foam truck and spray the entire building in 1 day. Spray foam is still expensive compared to fiberglass, but IMHO, it's well worth it.
Oh, and for your ceiling... If you use metal liner panel on the bottom of your metal rafters, then you'll essentially have an attic. If the attic is vented, you could then blow in fiberglass or cellulous insulation and have that sit on the ceiling. I think you'd need a vapor barrior between the metal and insulation. That would save you the money of spray foaming the roof. Plus, not having spray foam on the roof lets you do roof or leak repairs easier.

Brian

 

[DougWil]

Here's what I DID.
My pole building has posts spaced at 16' with horizontal boards going between them. The exterior metal is installed vertically (yours is installed horizontally). My spacing between the horizontal wood supports is between 3-4' which does not lend itself to sheeting with 4x8 panels. I would have had to frame in the entire inside with studs, and at that point I would have been better off having the building stick built.

Yep, that is the problem with post spacing, mainstream and lower cost insulation and sheeting don't work unless you frame it all in or use expensive ribbed metal siding.

 

[8mpg]

Get a quote on spray foam. Its a lot cheaper than doing it yourself with kits of spray foam. I had my house done in open cell (3.5" walls, 8" roof line) on a 2100sqft house for $6k. It should be cheaper in an open area where they can just spray like crazy.