New Company idea- Outsource sheet metal / welding?

[jgorm]

I have an idea I'd like to get off the ground and I'm looking for some input. It will involve cutting ~16g stainless steel sheets with different designs. I'll then need to roll it into a cylinder approximately 18" in diameter. The height will be roughly 3' tall. There will be some additional items that need to be welded on.

I'd like to start with 1 prototype, evaluate it, then order 5 or 10 additional prototype / pre - production builds.

Option 1:
Find a local machine shop, have them build a prototype. Any idea of a rough ballpark cost for taking a fairly simple hand drawing, converting it to something to feed into the CNC table, cutting the design, rolling the sheet, and welding up the seam on the cylinder?

Option 2:
I could start out doing the design work by hand on a single sheet. The wife said I can buy a plasma torch! Maybe a powermax45. I'd have to take it to a shop to roll it. I'd cut out the auxiliary parts and do the welding myself.

Option 3: (includes option 2)
Buy a big *** slip roll that can handle 36" 16g stainless, maybe a 14g mild steel capacity would be enough. It looks like I could find a used one for $1000-3000 that should work. I could do everything myself until business picked up enough to exceed my free time capacity. (I have a regular job). I'd have to learn how to use the slip roll, but I figure it can't be that complicated.

Any opinions or feedback will be appreciated.

 

[strength_and_power]

If you are looking for repeatable designs, a handheld plasma is not the way to go. I would outsource it. Find a fab shop that can laser cut and also roll. They will be able to spot some design flaws prior to cutting and help you avoid them.
Not sure where you are located but Western Sheet Metal in Irving,TX would be able to help you and in sure there are places like them in every city.

 

[Stuart in MN]

For only 5 to 10 pieces, find a local job shop to do the work - it will be less expensive and a lot quicker than buying expensive tools and then learning how to use them. If the product turns into something that you can sell a lot of, then you can think about bringing the fab work in house.

 

[matt_i]

A big part of the cost is also going to be how "cylindrical" it has to be at the end.

Rolling a sheet and welding the seam is doable but expecting it to be purely round at the end is non-trivial.

Not sure on job costs, but it would be less if you could give them a .dxf file to work with (thats a typical autocad wireframe file extension). A shop with a CAM program puts in the .dxf file and out comes a G-code file needed to direct the action and interaction of the servos.

 

[readhead]

You want to look for a sheet metal shop. A job shop not a duct shop. Rolling a piece of metal isn't as easy as you might think. Obviously it can be done but it is a little more complicated to come out with a perfect cylinder. I don't know what you want for a final finish but plasma will leave burn marks that will have to be cleaned. Water jet or laser will be a better choice. Welding the seam may be a problem to resolve. You might consider an offset on one side and spot welding.

Be ready for some sticker shock for one piece. If you ask for one they will probably make three to set the machines. I would guess a couple grand. You probably won't see any price breaks unless you commit to 50-100 pieces.

This is all expensive, complicated equipment. Unless you are thinking tens of thousands of units it makes no sense to make them yourself. A good CAD drawing of the finished piece will make the estimating process a lot smoother.

Good luck on your new endeavor. By the way I was a union tinner in a lot of the job shops in San Diego for twenty years.

 

[homebuilt burner]

Keep in mind, the more work you outsource the less control and profit. And the greater chance of your idea becoming their product. With that said purchasing and learning how to use a bunch of new equipment will not be cheap or quick.

Good luck.

 

[VocaTexas]

Does the seam have to be welded solid, or will spot welds work? I would think a dozen or so spot welds would be cheap/quicker than a solid weld on a three foot seam.

 

[jetrep]

I wouldn't expect the price to be as high as 2k but probably close to a grand for one or two. I would suggest asking for price breaks. We sometimes have customers order one part...if they asked for price breaks they'd see they could have had 2 or maybe 5 for nearly the same price. The high initial cost is due to setup time and minimum material size. The run time to laser cut your part is probably not very long.

Are the cutout features decorative or is position important? Finding a shop that laser cuts is easy..finding one that rolls will be tougher.

Expect to pay much more if you can't supply the models/drawings needed to easily turn your part from concept into reality. If they have to work off your doodles the hassle factor goes way up.

 

[Boomer343]

I doubt you would roll 16 ga stainless with a roller only good for 14 ga mild steel especially a piece 36 inches wide.

I see you dumping a lot of money into equipment you don't know how to use and it will not turn out well. You have a lot to learn but how hard can that be.... time and money is all it takes.

 

[csp]

Rolling a piece of metal isn't as easy as you might think.

Especially stainless!

 

[RVDan]

I had four fire rings cut, rolled, and welded at a sheet metal shop for $300 a bunch of years ago but the cutout design was pretty simple.

At only 18" you might be better off just buying some tubing.

 

[sberry]

You may find someone that will work with you if its truly a good idea and has a future.

 

[dr_clyde]

There are some unknowns in your scenario, but barring the odd complication, here is how I would break it down if I was doing the job.

1 HR to draw the part on CAD from your napkin
Laser cut the blank(s) - anywhere from $50-$200 depending on size, material, ect.
Bump ends in press brake to get correct radius - 20 min
Roll parts - 30 min
Weld parts - 1 HR to 2 HR depending on material, qty, size, ect.

I'd say your first couple parts should cost around $500, if nothing is abnormal or weird tolerances aren't required.

 

[sberry]

Not only that a fabricator may consider things that havnt occurred to you yet for some reason, maybe it makes a difference, maybe not.

 

[A**holes Garage]

I would just have the one prototype built for testing out of mild steel. Then test fabricate your mounts and test for functionality, etc. rivet the cylinder for now, no seam welding.

Maybe even cut some of the designs out yourself, and assemble yourself. Doesn't have to be perfect for testing purposes does it?

 

[bdbecker]

You have to ask yourself what you expectations are. Are you just using this as an excuse to purchase some new tools/equipment or are you serious about making this product into a real business? If you just want to buy some new tools and use the product to pay for them, that is totally cool (no judgement here) and you already know the answer to your question.

However, if you are serious about turning this into a real business, Option #1 all the way. Take the time and money you would spend acquiring and learning the new equipment and invest it into developing and promoting the product itself. That way, if it takes off, you can stay focused on running the business side of things and aren't stuck in the garage trying to make parts, handle phone calls, filling orders, and so on. Develop a partnership with whomever you have building the product. Don't be afraid to change companies if they don't meet your expectations.

...if nothing is abnormal or weird tolerances aren't required.

I can't stress how important this statement is.

We do exactly the kind of work you are asking about. One of the things we see time and time again is that customers will put unrealistic or unnecessary tolerances on a part, or request odd materials that require special orders/mill runs. This drives up the price very quickly. I would encourage you to sit down with your fabricator and ask them straight up "What needs to be changed to make this easier to build." If you don't have a ton of manufacturing experience, you may not be aware of some of these issues. Any worthwhile fabricator should be able to give you good feedback and will probably appreciate you asking the question.

Keep us posted on your progress!

 

[jgorm]

Thanks for all the tips and advice! I like the idea of using mild steel for the prototypes. The good thing is that the tolerance of the designs or the cylinder shape are very large. It's gotta "look" mostly round. I also like the spot welding idea. That might simplify the prototypes.

I'm sort of leaning towards option 2, or maybe even 3 after hearing it might be $1000 for one of them. I'm sure I'll have a number of prototypes before I finalize the design. It might be worth spending 4K on equipment, getting a kick *** prototype and make parts to order for the first year. If it pick up, I could sell the roller and outsoure production (gotta keep the plasma!).

I would encourage you to sit down with your fabricator and ask them straight up "What needs to be changed to make this easier to build."

absolutely!

I'm really thinking about pushing this project. My wife has been after me for years to actually do it. Probably like many of you, I have lots of projects going on. My shops not done, I don't have a lift installed, and I'm bidding on a wrecked mustang for an engine swap project.

 

[readhead]

If you are thinking about buying the equipment the stuff you are looking at may be three phase. Be prepared to have lots of service to the new shop. The third leg can be created with a phase converter but that costs also. Be very careful while looking at used equipment.

Simply rolling in a slip roll will leave flat sections at the start and end of the sheet. On a basic level you will need a brake to bump the first and last parts of the sheet. Or buy a very expensive roll that does some of the work for you.

I think that your 4K budget for equipment is not realistic. You may think that having a shop make them for you will take money out of your pocket. In reality if all you do is market and ship them you will probably make more. Do you have time to market, fab and ship them? Will your neighbors be alright with a fab shop next door? Can you operate legally out of your shop? Will this work if you have to rent a shop?

I hope the very best for your idea but make sure you know what all the real costs and process's are. Don't make the mistake of working for wages. The idea is to make a profit.