New cordless tools and future proofing...

[ocanuck]

In the market for a new drill, driver, and maybe circ saw... it's down to either Milwaukee or Dewalt but then I'm at a loss... m18, fuel, fuel 2.0, max 20, max 20xr. What's the best value for a weekend warrior who doesn't want to buy new stuff again in 4 or 5 years when the batteries are pooched?

My current Makita NiCad stuff has been great, no real need for a performance upgrade other than the batteries are toast and the driver's chuck is stuck (and I haven't tried hard enough to unstick it).

I know I can still buy batteries for the Makita if I look hard enough or DIY upgrade the packs... but neither is "easy" as going to my local tool house and buying one.

 

[GTO]

It's another red vs. yellow thread......in

 

[jd_1138]

Milwaukee and DeWalt are both great platforms, but since it's owned by an American (and not Chinese) co. and actually does produce at least some of products in the USA, I went with DeWalt myself. I've had zero problems with my DeWalt stuff.

 

[Redwolf947]

Milwaukee M-18 sets are on sale at HD today only http://www.homedepot.com/SpecialBuy/SpecialBuyOfTheDay

 

[Loren871]

Go Milwaukee you won't regret it.

 

[gdocktor3]

Or, go with 20v Dewalt. You won't regret it. I didn't/haven't.

I also have 18v Makita, 18v Ridgid and some 18v Ryobi and Dewalt. All work well, but the Dewalt stuff lasts longer. This day in age, just about any brand cordless tools will do. Also this day in age, you can find nos batteries online for dirt cheap no matter what volt or platform they may be.

 

[LeeG]

As I understand it, Milwaukee has committed to keep the M18 and M12 lines for a long time. I switched from Dewalt to Milwaukee when Dewalt didn't provide an upgrade path from 18XRP to their lithium line. They finally added that this past winter, but I'd already gotten rid of all my Dewalt's.

 

[M6erfan]

go corded and dont worry about it

 

[rice rocket]

Makita has the longest running 18v Li-ion platform, no?

Milwaukee changed **** up when they had to reboot their marketing campaign after all their V18 **** started bombing.



edit: To be clear, almost all manufacturers had teething problems w/ early lithium cells, it's just Makita stuck to their battery interface while Milwaukee changed it all up and made all their V18 customers rebuy all their tools as M18 ones.

 

[speed bump]

The way technology is developing the jump in 5 years will probably be big enough that you will consider buying a new system any way.

Dewalt versus Milwaukee comes down to: Do you believe Dewalt has improved back to Milwaukee quality (we were committed to Dewalt at a shop I worked at between 05-09 and anything new didn't seem to last more than 6 months) and that Milwaukee won't stick you by making a ton of tool/battery changes that require you to change systems.

 

[jd_1138]

go corded and dont worry about it

Yeah corded is cheaper and more powerful. Maybe not 100% as convenient but most projects are done around a power outlet. I used to have 10 Ryobi cordless One+ tools but I sold them to a friend.

Now I have DeWalt cordless impact driver, drill, flashlight, lantern. And I have a corded Makita sawzall, corded Ryobi multi-tool, corded Black and Decker jigsaw (older model, built well), corded Craftsman Sawmill circular saw.

I'd still like to pick up the rest of the DeWalt cordless tools though just in case.

 

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

My most needed tool right now is an impact wrench so I will base my decision on that. I don't own any 18v or 20v tools right now. Both Milwaukee and Dewalt are solid dependable brands that professionals use day and day out.

One issue a few people have mentioned is that Dewalt's yellow coloring will get crudded up faster that red and black. This isn't a minor issue IMO, if you don't want your tools looking like **** in a few years of use.

 

[Milwookie]

DeWalt has been a little more...flexible...in the way they describe their battery power. It's just marketing, but it affects my feelings of them as a company a bit. That being said, they both make fantastic tools. If you want to be able to buy a new tool every few weeks for the next 10 years, Milwaukee has a huge line up. If you want more POWER DeWalt currently has the edge.

In the end, the deciding factor for most people is purely psychological. It has to do with the associations you have with the brand, and they've each spent millions of dollars crafting that image. In the end, it's like choosing a brand of cigarettes--pick the one with the best packaging and start spending money!

 

[Mastermind]

Ha. I like that analogy. But I smoke reds and have dewalt cordless stuff.... The only problem I've had abusing my dewalt stuff is the yellow plastic on the 2a.h. batteries is brittle. Both of mine are broken from minor falls, like off the core support of a car on the ground type fall, not ten foot ladder fall. The all black battery has done this several times and is just fine. Other than that I love my dewalt stuff.

 

[Loscaldazar]

As far as the "Milwaukee is a Chinese company now" that will eventually be brought up (and has already been slightly referenced), here's an article explaining the reality of the situation. http://toolguyd.com/milwaukee-tool-jobs-062015/

Also, as the article also mentions, remember TTI (owns Milwaukee) also owns Empire Level who makes almost all their tools in the USA. Engineering, management, distribution, marketing, etc is all done in the USA. They aren't buying up companies and dismantling/outsourcing for profits. TTI is buying companies that have the possibility to be great, but need more cash/support in order to grow. They keep the companies they buy almost the same as they were before they were bought, but give additional investments allowing them to be successful.

I'd go for Milwaukee right now, but I'm not purchasing cordless tools right now. I'm still waiting for the Lithium Ion to Dual Carbon battery (hopefully) switch before I upgrade again

 

[rice rocket]

As far as the "Milwaukee is a Chinese company now" that will eventually be brought up (and has already been slightly referenced), here's an article explaining the reality of the situation. http://toolguyd.com/milwaukee-tool-jobs-062015/

We've discussed this before at length. Since when did 100 engineering jobs = thousands of manufacturing jobs offshored? Milwaukee is unabashedly 100% manufacturing all their power tools in China, and damn proud of it.

If you want to know who's contributing the most to the US economy, Makita annually makes more tools in the US than both DeWalt and Milwaukee. The value is generated not only in paying the workers, but building hundred million dollar factories to manufacture these tools as well.





edit: I don't own any Makita, I found out about most this stuff too late. I sold off most my Milwaukee though and I'm enjoying some German-made Metabo tools (and the China made ones as well ).

 

[Fender1325]

For whatever its worth (about nothing), Ive run the craftsmen c3 impact and drill set for a year or two now. Drill isnt the greatest but it works. For $150 for 2 lithium batteries, a charger, impact gun and drill it is a good value. My next go round will be Dewalt though. I have too many friends with them who are all happy.

 

[rodsnratfinks]

Do people no longer consider Makita a contender to Dewalt and Milwaukee? I never see them mentioned in these conversations.

 

[Loscaldazar]

We've discussed this before at length. Since when did 100 engineering jobs = thousands of manufacturing jobs offshored? Milwaukee is unabashedly 100% manufacturing all their goods in China, and damn proud of it.

Milwaukee was going to go bankrupt before TTI bought them. Under Atlas Copco they were performing horribly. Outsourcing was the next step for them, regardless of if TTI bought them out. I suppose it would have been better to loose those well paying engineering and management jobs too because they wouldn't have been able to manufacture here.... /s

All I was saying is that Milwaukee is not a Chinese company with a warehouse and a distribution team in the States. Its entire corporate structure is still here in the States too. So saying it's a Chinese company is highly misleading. Saying it manufacturers a larger portion of it's goods overseas is accurate however.

Plus Milwaukee makes a fair amount of their accessories in the USA still too. It's not everything, but it's something.

 

[rice rocket]

Do people no longer consider Makita a contender to Dewalt and Milwaukee? I never see them mentioned in these conversations.

I'm generalizing here, but most Makita owners are professionals. It could be a chicken or the egg argument, but overall, because Makita US doesn't buy into the constant marketing campaigns (free batteries, $20 off $100, and the like) that you see Milwaukee/DeWalt go for, it drives away the homeowner demographic. If the tool is a means to your livelihood, you buy it, you don't sit around turning down jobs, waiting for the next sale to come about.

Most Makita users seem very satisfied, and don't feel the need to overrationalize their purchases to a bunch of strangers on the internet. Also the lack of sales means that they don't have active threads on the internet, with people gloating on how great of a deal they got on X and Y tool because the MSRP was this or that.

 

[rrich1]

Do people no longer consider Makita a contender to Dewalt and Milwaukee? I never see them mentioned in these conversations.

I bought into Makita this year and am very happy with it. My Bosch tools which have been great and still use just doesnt have the expansive lineup like it should. I keep both and purchase what the other doesn't have and if there are same tools Ill compare and buy accordingly.

I'm generalizing here, but most Makita owners are professionals. It could be a chicken or the egg argument, but overall, because Makita US doesn't buy into the constant marketing campaigns (free batteries, $20 off $100, and the like) that you see Milwaukee/DeWalt go for, it drives away the homeowner demographic. If the tool is a means to your livelihood, you buy it, you don't sit around turning down jobs, waiting for the next sale to come about.

Most Makita users seem very satisfied, and don't feel the need to overrationalize their purchases to a bunch of strangers on the internet. Also the lack of sales means that they don't have active threads on the internet, with people gloating on how great of a deal they got on X and Y tool because the MSRP was this or that.

Makita runs promos all of the time. They have a buy 2 bare tool get a free battery and charger promo ending today. Earlier in the year they had buy 3 bare tools and get 2 batteries and a charger. They are just not as in your face about it like Milwaukee and Dewalt.

 

[Milwookie]

We've discussed this before at length. Since when did 100 engineering jobs = thousands of manufacturing jobs offshored? Milwaukee is unabashedly 100% manufacturing all their power tools in China, and damn proud of it.

If you want to know who's contributing the most to the US economy, Makita annually makes more tools in the US than both DeWalt and Milwaukee. The value is generated not only in paying the workers, but building hundred million dollar factories to manufacture these tools as well.





edit: I don't own any Makita, I found out about most this stuff too late. I sold off most my Milwaukee though and I'm enjoying some German-made Metabo tools (and the China made ones as well ).

I find it a bit disingenuous to talk about Milwaukee not contributing to the US economy. Sending production overseas makes for less expensive products, which means if you buy a Milwaukee tool made overseas then you have more money in your pocket to do other things—like saving, for example. Plenty of economists have shown how "buying American" is often little more than psychological benefit. If it makes you feel better to buy American than knock yourself out, but you're really not doing the US economy any favors by paying more than you need to for a product. As is often the case with these kinds of things, it's way more complicated than that.

 

[Jimmer411]

I've been using Toppbatt Makita 5.0AH batteries off amazon for months and I love them. There are plenty of battery options available as well. They charge flawlessly in the old style and newer style quick chargers as well.

I went with Makita originally because I did not like the way the other brand tools fit in my hand. It doesn't matter how good a tool is if its not comfortable in your hand. Made in America means nothing these days and I would not consider that a buying point or preference. Just look at how American cars stack up against Japanese or even Korean (Hyundai and Kia lately), there just isn't any comparison.

 

[rice rocket]

Makita runs promos all of the time. They have a buy 2 bare tool get a free battery and charger promo ending today. Earlier in the year they had buy 3 bare tools and get 2 batteries and a charger. They are just not as in your face about it like Milwaukee and Dewalt.

They do, but not to the extremes. i.e. try to find a day in the last 5 years that Milwaukee hasn't been hawking some free item on promotion, versus 3-4x a year to hit the major holiday seasons, is a pretty big difference.

 

[jd_1138]

I see a lot of pros using Makitas. I'd say they are a pro brand, definitely, as well as Bosch. Especially for a weekend warrior, Makitas are perfectly fine. Though I am a DeWalt guy myself.

 

[rice rocket]

I find it a bit disingenuous to talk about Milwaukee not contributing to the US economy. Sending production overseas makes for less expensive products, which means if you buy a Milwaukee tool made overseas then you have more money in your pocket to do other things—like saving, for example. Plenty of economists have shown how "buying American" is often little more than psychological benefit. If it makes you feel better to buy American than knock yourself out, but you're really not doing the US economy any favors by paying more than you need to for a product. As is often the case with these kinds of things, it's way more complicated than that.

Really? You don't think the $340 billion trade deficit to China doesn't hurt you and your neighbor directly?

This is pretty simple. The labor market has two inputs, supply and demand. If you remove all the demand for skilled labor, then why would companies pay $25/hr for their work, when there's tons of unemployed willing to take $15/hr? It doesn't matter if you can "buy more with less" when you have zero after you cover your living expenses. If your neighbor is buying zero, he's not paying the same amount of taxes nor paying for other goods and services produced by the local economy.

Also, your argument doesn't hold any water, because If you were really trying to keep more money in your pocket, you wouldn't be buying Milwaukee tools to begin with. Even versus the other TTI brands like Ridgid/Ryobi, there is no way you would find 2x-3x the value given the price gulf. The big price difference you pay goes to fill the coffers of the shareholders.

 

[outdoorspace]

Sending production overseas makes for less expensive products, which means if you buy a Milwaukee tool made overseas then you have more money in your pocket to do other things—like saving, for example.

A few dollars in my pocket to spend on more cheap imports at the expense of my neighbor's job.

 

[Milwookie]

Really? You don't think the $340 billion trade deficit to China doesn't hurt you and your neighbor directly?

This is pretty simple. The labor market has two inputs, supply and demand. If you remove all the demand for skilled labor, then why would companies pay $25/hr for their work, when there's tons of unemployed willing to take $15/hr? It doesn't matter if you can "buy more with less" when you have zero after you cover your living expenses. If your neighbor is buying zero, he's not paying the same amount of taxes nor paying for other goods and services produced by the local economy.

Also, your argument doesn't hold any water, because If you were really trying to keep more money in your pocket, you wouldn't be buying Milwaukee tools to begin with. Even versus the other TTI brands like Ridgid/Ryobi, there is no way you would find 2x-3x the value given the price gulf. The big price difference you pay goes to fill the coffers of the shareholders.

I'm not going to spend much time on this, because the impression that I get is that your arguments are based on emotion more than reason. Simply google "are trade deficits good" and you'll see a myriad of articles from all kinds of reputable sources explaining why they're not the boogeyman that they're made out to be. Of course it's true that if you ask two economists for an opinion you'll get three answers. But at least take a look at the articles to see an opposing viewpoint. Pick the source that comes closest to your value system.

 

[Milwookie]

A few dollars in my pocket to spend on more cheap imports at the expense of my neighbor's job.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/11/02/why-buy-american-is-dumb-idea.html

From the article:

"Buy American" is a dumb idea. It would not only not create prosperity, it would cost jobs and make us all poorer. On [the] show last week, David R. Henderson, an economist at the Hoover Institution, explained why.

"Almost all economists say it's nonsense," he said. "And the reason is: We should buy things where they're cheapest. That frees up more of our resources to buy other things, and other Americans get jobs producing those things."​

 

[Skin]

Im personally a fan of DeWalt but if its automotive impacts you're interested in they really only have 1 model worth a damn, being the DCF899 brushless. They make more for MAC but in terms of what they have in yellow Milwaukee has them beat handedly. Hopefully that will change before the end of the year.

Makita is outsourcing more and more. Seems every year the list grows. I went miter shopping with Makita at the top of my list only to find they downgraded the design of the saw and sent production from Japan to China. Personally, in cordless, I don't bother with them since their stuff also carries more of a premium and Makita is geared far more towards construction than repair fields.

More importantly Makita has some of the weakest customer service/after purchase support of any cordless tool manufacturer, at least in the States.

 

[Notorious BRT]

What are you going to need in the cordless tool category? That is the question you should be asking yourself. Gonna be shooting screws into 2x4s and drilling a few holes? Buy whichever brand feels best in your hand. Gonna need/want a bunch of trade specific or automotive tools? Milwaukee is the only viable option. The M12 ratchet is the greatest thing ever.

 

[Milwookie]

I'll stop derailing the thread with economic propaganda, but I wanted to conclude by noting that I don't feel our economy is hunky dory. The balance between rich and poor is totally out of whack, and the reality is that more Americans than ever have no choice but to buy cheap because they're being priced out of existence. But I think "Buy American" is a distraction from the real issues and a way for Americans to feel they have a choice in the matter. Make your voice heard this November by voting to either get kicked in the teeth or punched in the balls. God bless America!

 

[gdocktor3]

Makita's torque wrench specs don't come close to matching those from Dewalt or Milwaukee, and that's a problem. GJ largely consist of mechanics who rely on these high powered cordless impact wrenches and ratchets day to day. While Makita makes excellent drills and saws, a mechanic isn't going to buy from them and then switch to a different platform for their impact tools. Plus, Milwaukee (I've heard) and Dewalt (Mac) are sold on tool trucks. So, if Makita sold higher spec'd impact wrenches/ratchets and were maybe sold/repaired on trucks, you would hear about them more on here. If you go to a wood working forum and ask about chop saws or hammer drills, Makita would be a top contender.

 

[Limi]

I have the Makita 18v 3.0 amp brushless hammer and impact combo and looking to get the cordless circular to compliment these. The rest I see no need to go cordless. Just pull the trigger on a choice and don't look back. I harped way too long on a choice between dewalt and milwaukee and stumbled into Makita cause it was on clearance for 50% off. Ended my personal battle once I saw it. Sometimes these tools feel like we're putting a ring on it.

 

[rice rocket]

I'm not going to spend much time on this, because the impression that I get is that your arguments are based on emotion more than reason. Simply google "are trade deficits good" and you'll see a myriad of articles from all kinds of reputable sources explaining why they're not the boogeyman that they're made out to be. Of course it's true that if you ask two economists for an opinion you'll get three answers. But at least take a look at the articles to see an opposing viewpoint. Pick the source that comes closest to your value system.

Ha ha, you could search "moon landing faked" and you'd get hits too, this is a prime example of your confirmation bias. Try searching without leading the search engine and you'll get a better picture.

The balance between rich and poor is totally out of whack, and the reality is that more Americans than ever have no choice but to buy cheap because they're being priced out of existence. But I think "Buy American" is a distraction from the real issues and a way for Americans to feel they have a choice in the matter.

You really can't connect the dots here?

Assembly and manufacturing jobs provided the middleground between unskilled cashier and burger flipping labor, and 4-year+ degree college educated labor. With a high school diploma or GED in hand, a kid applying themselves fully could step into an assembly or machinist job, and work his way up to management. Removing 70% of the entire manufacturing job base leaves someone leaving high school with much fewer choices, leaving you with a near-poverty level salary or delay working for 4 years and then step into a near-poverty level living standard once you make the minimum payment on your $200k student loan.

If you want to see an example of a well functioning, well rounded society, the Germans have tackled this problem pretty well. Between the strong demand they've created for quality German-made goods, and the trade schools and apprenticeships they've established to support their manufacturing base, you essentially see what the Americans had in the 50s and 60s, before we all became slaves to the almighty dollar and corporations figured out their could charge the same amount but cut their labor costs by 1/10th by tapping poor economies.

In the end, it's a zero sum game, and by purchasing from companies who are actively engaging in wage slavery is ensuring job security at the top and rewarding the shareholders handsomely.


but no, that couldn't cause a wage gap, nope, nuh uh, I'm not seeing it...it's just a distraction....

 

[rrich1]

Makita's torque wrench specs don't come close to matching those from Dewalt or Milwaukee, and that's a problem. GJ largely consist of mechanics who rely on these high powered cordless impact wrenches and ratchets day to day. While Makita makes excellent drills and saws, a mechanic isn't going to buy from them and then switch to a different platform for their impact tools. Plus, Milwaukee (I've heard) and Dewalt (Mac) are sold on tool trucks. So, if Makita sold higher spec'd impact wrenches/ratchets and were maybe sold/repaired on trucks, you would hear about them more on here. If you go to a wood working forum and ask about chop saws or hammer drills, Makita would be a top contender.

Makitas new torque wrench earlier this year is a beast with i believe higher numbers than Milwaukee and dewalt. Makita is more gear toward wood workers and that works for me.

Any tool company you go with will be fine. Look through their line up and see what tools you need and pick that one.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[HolyGrail]

Ha ha, you could search "moon landing faked" and you'd get hits too, this is a prime example of your confirmation bias. Try searching without leading the search engine and you'll get a better picture.




You really can't connect the dots here?

Assembly and manufacturing jobs provided the middleground between unskilled cashier and burger flipping labor, and 4-year+ degree college educated labor. With a high school diploma or GED in hand, a kid applying themselves fully could step into an assembly or machinist job, and work his way up to management. Removing 70% of the entire manufacturing job base leaves someone leaving high school with much fewer choices, leaving you with a near-poverty level salary or delay working for 4 years and then step into a near-poverty level living standard once you make the minimum payment on your $200k student loan.

If you want to see an example of a well functioning, well rounded society, the Germans have tackled this problem pretty well. Between the strong demand they've created for quality German-made goods, and the trade schools and apprenticeships they've established to support their manufacturing base, you essentially see what the Americans had in the 50s and 60s, before we all became slaves to the almighty dollar and corporations figured out their could charge the same amount but cut their labor costs by 1/10th by tapping poor economies.

In the end, it's a zero sum game, and by purchasing from companies who are actively engaging in wage slavery is ensuring job security at the top and rewarding the shareholders handsomely.


but no, that couldn't cause a wage gap, nope, nuh uh, I'm not seeing it...it's just a distraction....

I really want to hear responses in context to the OP's post......this adds nothing and just derails the thread. Can we please stay on topic.

 

[racingtadpole]

If there is no real need for a performance upgrade of your existing stuff, consider repacking your existing NiCad batteries. The sub C size cells are relatively cheap and repacking is relatively simple. I recently repacked four DeWalt 18V NiCad packs for just over $80 Australian.

 

[MDK22]

Buy Wired or air. With the money you save buy extension cords or hoses/compressor. I would actually suggest finding good old reliable versions and buying them off ebay.

As a technician I see so many guys with battery **** that are new and all the old guys have wired or air. Why because like you said every 4-5 years you are buying new. So every 4-5 years you are sinking $400-500 dollars min into these tools to have a decent assortment and multiple batteries.

Simple example Milwaukee hole shooter. I have one from 1970 that my dad used daily in a steel mill for 25 years as a mechanic. Sat in the garage getting light use for 5. I replaced the cord and use it professionally now and it out does any other 3/8 chuck drill I have run into including air. Also avoid quick chucks and get a Jacobs chuck and if you can't change it out that should tell you all you need to know right there.

Buy good, buy quality, buy it for life, and **** the looks.

If you absolutely need battery cause you work out in nature away from anything resembling human life or in a junk yard then go Milwaukee and the reason is simple. I see more of them lasting longer in a professional setting then Dewalt for mechanics anyway. If you are a carpenter then I say Dewalt they seem to handle the saw dust better.

 

[bobcatdan]

Depending on how many batteries you want, I'm greedy and like two per tool so I always have four or five ready to go. Any platform you buy into, when batteries start dying, it will be more cost effective to buy new tools. I also have also been bit by buying new batteries, then the tool dies shortly after so I end up buying a new tool anyways.