New Craftsman wrench quality?

[honza.vosalik]

Are the new Craftsman wrenches worth buying? I saw a 21 pieces wrench metric set for $30 at sears (clearance, original price $60), but made in China unlike all my other Craftsman standard wrenches that are made in the US

 

[maxcarp709]

Go see what HF is offering for the same set.I won`t buy anything from Sears now unless I can`t find it somewhere else.

 

[L.Cheapo]

A Made in China wrench that costs less than a Slurpee?

I wouldn't expect much.

 

[gdocktor3]

Spend the $10 more on the made in USA 3 piece adjustable wrench set. They'll work better than any Chinese wrenches.
http://m.sears.com/craftsman-3-pc-a...tEbJnu_YRAx9lV_hv89gMaApn88P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

[sberry]

We have a thread going on with China screwdrivers as being as good as any but if the same screwdriver came from Sears I spose it would be ****? Buy those, 1.50 a piece and they will work. If for some reason you grow a golden arm there isn't much loss. If you need wrenches these would be hard to beat considering the cost.
At 60$ its not a steal, they work the same but you are robbing Sears at that price.

A Made in China wrench that costs less than a Slurpee?

I wouldn't expect much.

So if they charged double you would feel better about it?

 

[gungatim]

I've got a set of the high polished professional wrenches, because I had some gift cards and points to get rid of. I must say, despite being Chinese (the engraving is ****), they are very high quality. no, they are not snap-on quality, but they are definitely better than the HF wrenches, and I like them better then the regular US made RP wrenches. comparing to Taiwan made Tekton or gearwrench, the craftsman are maybe half a notch below in quality (meaning chrome, fit, engraving). they do however, loosen and tighten nuts and bolts with ease... only pic I have:

 

[Mechanical Noise]

One factor to consider, most of the Craftsman sets are made from "alloy steel" and most of the HF Pittsburgh sets are made from "carbon steel". Alloy steel should be better, although the description is awfully vague.

I don't have any personal experience with that particular Craftsman set or any of the HF Pittsburgh sets. If I needed some inexpensive wrenches, I'd consider the Craftsman set. I'm more skeptical about "Pittsburgh" tools at HF as compared to "Pittsburgh Pro".

 

[BK13]

One factor to consider, most of the Craftsman sets are made from "alloy steel" and most of the HF Pittsburgh sets are made from "carbon steel". Alloy steel should be better, although the description is awfully vague.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you put a lot more faith in AdSpeak than I do....

 

[Mechanical Noise]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you put a lot more faith in AdSpeak than I do....

Well, I did qualify it with a "should be better" and "vague description". But carbon steel and alloy steel have real meanings beyond AdSpeak. But as far as Harbor Freight AdSpeak goes, I'm still waiting for Pittsburgh Pro wrenches.

 

[BDT/NWMN]

A Made in China wrench that costs less than a Slurpee?

I wouldn't expect much.

True and True

$30 isn't a pile of money for a 21 piece wrench set; but If they fill Your
needs, and Your are satisfied; that is what counts.

After reading this thread with the Slurpee comparison; I will have a
hard time keeping a straight face when walking into the local Ace
Hardware. The Dairy Queen is kiddie-corner across the street.

 

[L.Cheapo]

We have a thread going on with China screwdrivers as being as good as any but if the same screwdriver came from Sears I spose it would be ****? Buy those, 1.50 a piece and they will work. If for some reason you grow a golden arm there isn't much loss. If you need wrenches these would be hard to beat considering the cost.
At 60$ its not a steal, they work the same but you are robbing Sears at that price.


So if they charged double you would feel better about it?

The fact is if they're selling a tool for less than $2, including shipping from halfway around the world, production, raw materials, QA, paying store overhead and probably still making money on it...they're not paying more than a handful of pennies for that tool. You don't get much for a handful of pennies in 2016. The OP asked for opinions, that's mine.

Personally, I wouldn't buy a wrench at that end of the spectrum, but if I HAD to, I'd be going to Harbor Freight. Why? Chances are they'll still be around in 5 years if the tool fails. Will Sears?

 

[VintageOkieDriver]

I prefer to find used American made and not Chinese. I have a "Kobelt"mechanics set bought to have a complete set of SAE & Metric sockets. I am now amassing used made in the USA.

 

[Loscaldazar]

One factor to consider, most of the Craftsman sets are made from "alloy steel" and most of the HF Pittsburgh sets are made from "carbon steel". Alloy steel should be better, although the description is awfully vague.

I don't have any personal experience with that particular Craftsman set or any of the HF Pittsburgh sets. If I needed some inexpensive wrenches, I'd consider the Craftsman set. I'm more skeptical about "Pittsburgh" tools at HF as compared to "Pittsburgh Pro".

Carbon steel is alloy steel.

In fact all steel is an alloy. Steel is, by composition and thus definition, an alloy. Saying alloy steel is like saying that the glass of what I'm drinking right now is H20 water, not just water. Redundant terms.

As far as the original question, the box ends are fine on these wrenches. Never had a problem and I used both the Chinese and USA RP wrenches for a few years (still have them, but I use Snap On DBE wrenches for mostly everything now, and have a few random sizes of some nicer brands).

The open ends (whether USA or China) are junk. The stock endlinks for the rear sway bars on Subarus you have to use a 14MM open end to hold the threaded shaft as you remove the nut on the other side of the bar. I live in MN where we use hundreds of pounds of salt per driver during the winter, and these get super corroded. You have to use an impact wrench backed by an open end.

It's a tough test for a wrench to pass. I've never gotten one off using a Craftsman RP wrench (gearwrench also has failed this test). I've done it with a Snap On FDP, Wright Grip, and SK so far (will try Proto ASD and Williams Supercombo the next time I have to remove one of these).

Plus, besides their function, they're ungodly uncomfortable and short. Can't wait to replace mine with a full set of something better...

 

[gungatim]

actually they are much longer than standard RP wrenches, and longer than HF. nearly as long as my Snap-On's as well. I think they were a good deal for $39 or less minus the surprise points. I have 3 tool boxes, main one is all HF/Craftsman/husky, next to that is my truck brand stuff, 3rd is all USA craftsman. the HF/Cman/Husky is my go-to set and they haven't let me down, but I like to use the tool truck stuff every so often just because...

 

[Mechanical Noise]

Carbon steel is alloy steel.

.

But the common meaning of "alloy steel" is iron alloyed with something more than carbon, say chromium and vanadium.

If Craftsman says "alloy steel" for simple carbon steel, then they're being deceptive.

So, yeah. Not impossible.

 

[zcbauer89]

I've got the 21 piece SAE set in my service truck. They've held up pretty good. And I haven't had any issues with them. The lobster claws never bothered me, but I work on big stuff.

 

[lazer50]

If your using them for occasional home diy type repairs the set is probably a good value.making comparisons to snap on or professional quality tools is off subject and so is the metal forging debate.several retailers carry the craftsman brand for warranty purpose in case sears folds or sells the name.

 

[zendriver]

One factor to consider, most of the Craftsman sets are made from "alloy steel" and most of the HF Pittsburgh sets are made from "carbon steel". Alloy steel should be better, although the description is awfully vague.

I don't have any personal experience with that particular Craftsman set or any of the HF Pittsburgh sets. If I needed some inexpensive wrenches, I'd consider the Craftsman set. I'm more skeptical about "Pittsburgh" tools at HF as compared to "Pittsburgh Pro".

Chrome vanadium is an alloy steel


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[honza.vosalik]

Thanks guys! This is just for stuff around the house and other occasional projects. Not everyday use, I'm not a professional.

 

[zendriver]

I'm not a "tool expert", but my guess is the use them and they don't distort ir break they are good wrenches and knowing what we know about wrenches, whether you use them once a week or 10 times a day will absolutely not matter.


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[T45]

If you're on a budget pick up some USA wrenches on fleabay. Or look for something Taiwan, there are lots of decently cheap wrench sets out there. It really depends on how much you need to care about quality after that. There is safety, then fitment, then things like ergonomics and blance, maybe length and clearances. The stuff after fitment really only matters to people using the tools alot or in applications that are more demanding than DIY stuff. This is why the old raised panel stuff was very sufficent for many years for many people. If you needed ergonomics, clearances, and more subtle features you would buy truck tools. But just for having around to take off a bolt RPs are fine.

 

[T45]

Chrome vanadium is an alloy steel

yeah, alloy steel means CrV tool steel.

Any steel has carbon otherwise it would just be iron (not steel at all), so 'carbon steel' is really only used to signify something like 'high carbon' content. 'alloy steel' is used to signify CrV without using all of the space and complexity of 'Chrome vanadium'. Cro-Mo would be a poor choice for a wrench, so wouldn't be assumed at all in most contexts.

There was alot of this evolution in the 1920-1940's when these things were sort of cutting edge and salable points of difference.

 

[pstemari]

so 'carbon steel' is really only used to signify something like 'high carbon' content. 'alloy steel' is used to signify CrV without using all of the space and complexity of 'Chrome vanadium'.

Well, unless you have a lot of carbon in the iron, e.g. grey cast iron. AFAICT, steel means controlled carbon content more than anything else. You'll see "cast steel" or "semi-steel" for things like lathe chucks, so forging or rolling isn't required.

I've only seen "tool steel" applied to things like O-1, M-2, S-7, etc that are typically made into cutting tools.

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[Wakefield]

Does some of the most brittle cast iron (like a furnace that can be broken up with sledges) actually contain a lot of carbon?

 

[pstemari]

Yes. That's gray cast iron, which has so much carbon that it has embedded flakes of graphite that came out of solution from the iron. It's why it machines so easily.

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[Mechanical Noise]

I've only seen "tool steel" applied to things like O-1, M-2, S-7, etc that are typically made into cutting tools.

Back in the 60s, my Mom bought an unbranded cheap screwdriver with the words "tool steel" roll stamped onto the shank. It held up about as long as a cheap screwdriver should and I'd be very surprised if there was anything more than carbon in that "tool steel". Of course, it was a tool and the shank was steel.

I'm pretty confident that Craftsman isn't playing a similar word game with "alloy steel", although I don't think it's completely impossible. If they are using a suitable steel such as Chrome-Vanadium, I don't see any benefit in not saying so explicitly.

 

[555]

I had a bunch of expiring points and bought a set of these wrenches. With my points and the Sears sale price it was about .50 per wrench. I didn't think I could go wrong at that price! LOL!. So far they have held up to my abuse well.

 

[sberry]

I had a bunch of expiring points and bought a set of these wrenches. With my points and the Sears sale price it was about .50 per wrench. I didn't think I could go wrong at that price! LOL!. So far they have held up to my abuse well.

Anyone wonder why Sears cant make enough to float? Ha. Any cheaper and they would be paying you to haul them out. You beat the snot out of them and they work, this seems more true than the busted knuckle scenario we hear so much about.
I tried to cold bend one in the field in a drawbar with 440 Channelocks You couldn't have busted it in a 1000 years hand service.
If I had to start over today and get my feet under myself in a hurry would absolutely consider running off to Sears for one of those insane low super sale sets and go from there.
My Bud bought a set about the same time I started in about 80, was a grand then and he really hasn't bought much else since of note in terms of hard line stuff. I don't think the price has went up since and maybe even better today. No difference in the tools, same relative stuff it has always been since 70's.

 

[sberry]

Paying 50 cents for a generic Chinese socket that is as good as it is makes sense to me. I understand collectors but for less than the gas to the flea market can own a set of lifetime tools, can beat it with a 20 oz nail hammer repeatedly.
I like the OP got the idea to respond in further clarity,,, I work on simple stuff,,, will these work for me and a couple clear responses to that a yes. It would be trade worthy and is sold under various brands and much greater prices. Sears is near giving them away.
No one beats their good tools like we have done to some of this stuff.

 

[sberry]

No one goes thru an oilfield truck or farm shop where every dude is fighting for a paycheck using company tools and strips out the working 9/16 sockets being abused daily with Snapons cause they aint got anything better to do that day with 30$ Most of the worlds work despite belief here is done with cheap hand tools.
Sears, Wards, Pennys even sold tools, some auto parts stores were outlets for 2nd tier stuff. When Sears decided to go down to Kmart, try to out price everyone they lost it.
They should have chased SK and headed upscale as they were failing instead of Walmart and HF pricing.
Today got to offer bonus points to carry them away.

 

[sberry]

I paid 10$ on sale for the same thing the thread was about on Sears sale in 1982. Its made in a different country till recently but its the same wrench in 2015 and 33+ fuggin years later its the same price.
Snapon has done what it should do, raised their price and kept the quality up, Sears aint done a thing but take a loss for 33 years. At that time they were 10% the cost of Snap, now, same tool at less than 5% and less than the sales tax on a Snap.
It makes some tools no brainers and it would make it even better today where its not a gut wrenching to well tool to meet the demand. Not worth carting more to the cottage each weekend, way more effective to buy another Sears set doesn't eat much.
As I mention when we started the math wasn't even as good as it is now, we paid a dollar or 2 for singles as needed but most of them found their way in to service to the point I don't even consider other than glad to have it when needed,

 

[Loscaldazar]

But the common meaning of "alloy steel" is iron alloyed with something more than carbon, say chromium and vanadium.

If Craftsman says "alloy steel" for simple carbon steel, then they're being deceptive.

Yes it would be deceptive, but it wouldn't be wrong, and it would be an easy court case for Craftsman/Sears to win.

I'm pretty confident that Craftsman isn't playing a similar word game with "alloy steel", although I don't think it's completely impossible. If they are using a suitable steel such as Chrome-Vanadium, I don't see any benefit in not saying so explicitly.

Even if they said Chrome-Vanadium or chrome-moly, that's still pretty useless information. There are so many different grades, that you can't get much information from that. Some Chrome-Vanadium grades would actually be better suited for impact use than certain chrome-moly grades. However, there are more grades of chrome-moly that would be better suited for impact use than most Chrome-Vanadium (and some chrome moly grades that are better than ALL Chrome-Vanadium grades for impact). Hence you are more likely to get a "better" impact socket if you buy Chrome-moly, but that does not guarantee that they will indeed be "better."

I'm not calling out you necessarily, what I am trying to get across is that the terms the marketing department uses to describe what steel their products are made out of is almost useless. What you do need to know is what specific grade it is (is it a 1050 vs 8050, or even a 40XX, etc). Buying wrenches based on the marketing language in the description is a poor way to choose. I'm relatively sure you agree with this, your post was just an easy one to quote and bring this topic into this thread.

Every grade comes with benefits and drawbacks

 

[Mooreag47]

Not sure about the quality but in my opinion and my opinion only China ***** and I do as much as I can not to support them and I do as much as I can to support u.s. company's If it's not u.s. made its not in my box and if it's to expensive you can source tools at your local swap meet or garage sale

 

[sberry]

I am sure about the quality and could really care less about China. I spose there is some rational for driving around making an Arab rich looking for stuff one needs a piece at a time if it happens to be at a swap meet or could spend 10$ on the wrench set meets ansi or better and is proven in service millions and millions of times a day without incident.
Sure I get he helps American jobs buy buying American. He can do this for about 100$, most of it cost added after it has left the mill.
Lets put 2 wrenches in a vise, beat on them with a framing hammer till we break them or stretch the box out and see if a 30$ wrench is 30 times as good as a competitive dollar one can be had today. See if its even 2x as good. I bought a good looking single for 3$ which I needed, overpaid a little for the convenience maybe but 3 vs 30 and I bet money the 30 aint all that much better and not so as I could ever be able to tell without mechanical assistance such as the hammer.

 

[sberry]

I am all for sales too but if a guy needs the tools buy these now and if you want to collect or upgrade I bet could actually sell the things for as much or more than you paid in a couple years. I would not however just because its not worth it to try to recoupe the 10$ or could easily find a use for them.
A lot of this advice is from seasoned mechanics. I can remember not having and lag where I should have bought. When I was a kid the idea of buying a metric socket set was almost would let alone all the drives and shapes.
In fact a guy should buy 2 sets at that price and would have at one time but take a grinder to a set when needed.
I could understand some of the argument if it was a question of 120$ and 100$, is it wirth the difference? But a lot of people try to imply the kid is getting screwed on a wrench set as some kind of substantial investment when its 10$
I am a career mechanic too, it becomes different more than better really. Sometimes its more especially when time is money and a 10$ wrench set can return fast and often, it takes a lot of decision pain out for business as well as even a burger worker can afford a usable tool set for an hours work and do the same job as if he had to spend a day,,, plus the overhead of life for something likely to be lost or depreciated.
Kids would be a good example of this.

 

[zendriver]

Not sure about the quality but in my opinion and my opinion only China ***** and I do as much as I can not to support them and I do as much as I can to support u.s. company's If it's not u.s. made its not in my box and if it's to expensive you can source tools at your local swap meet or garage sale

How does ignoring Sears and buying tools at swap meets and garage sales, support the US economy, when Sears/Kmart still has 178,000 employees - at least for now?

Just curious.


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[Moose97]

Thanks guys! This is just for stuff around the house and other occasional projects. Not everyday use, I'm not a professional.

I have USA standard Craftsman wrenches and the China made metric. I think I got the same deal a couple of years ago. I have had no issue with them and I use them regularly keeping 5 personal vehicles on the road plus 2 trailers and other jobs around the farm. They work fine.

This whole "brand" debate wears me out a bit. If you are a pro wrencher then by all means I would be buying the best tools I can afford. If you have a lot of expendable cash and you want high quality as a DIY'er, go for it but if you are like me, on a budget and raising a family, the Craftsman stuff and even the Harbor Freight stuff works fine.

my 2 cents.

 

[Mechanical Noise]

Yes it would be deceptive, but it wouldn't be wrong, and it would be an easy court case for Craftsman/Sears to win.

That's an interesting point. I didn't know if there's a legal definition of alloy steel, but I found one:


What is ALLOY STEEL?

When an iron based alloy has silicon, copper, manganese, and tungsten added to it to make a steel. Any steel with non standard amounts of the above elements is carbon steel.

Law Dictionary: What is ALLOY STEEL? definition of ALLOY STEEL (Black's Law Dictionary)


http://thelawdictionary.org/alloy-steel/


What is CARBON STEEL?

Steel in which the main alloying element is carbon, and whose properties are chiefly dependent on the percentage of carbon present. Steel whose characteristics are determined by the amount of carbon it contains.

Law Dictionary: What is CARBON STEEL? definition of CARBON STEEL (Black's Law Dictionary)

http://thelawdictionary.org/carbon-steel/


I'm not a lawyer, but it looks like Sears would have a legal problem if they were passing off carbon steel as alloy steel.

Even if they said Chrome-Vanadium or chrome-moly, that's still pretty useless information. There are so many different grades, that you can't get much information from that. Some Chrome-Vanadium grades would actually be better suited for impact use than certain chrome-moly grades. However, there are more grades of chrome-moly that would be better suited for impact use than most Chrome-Vanadium (and some chrome moly grades that are better than ALL Chrome-Vanadium grades for impact). Hence you are more likely to get a "better" impact socket if you buy Chrome-moly, but that does not guarantee that they will indeed be "better."

I'm not calling out you necessarily, what I am trying to get across is that the terms the marketing department uses to describe what steel their products are made out of is almost useless. What you do need to know is what specific grade it is (is it a 1050 vs 8050, or even a 40XX, etc). Buying wrenches based on the marketing language in the description is a poor way to choose. I'm relatively sure you agree with this, your post was just an easy one to quote and bring this topic into this thread.

Every grade comes with benefits and drawbacks

Marketing descriptions are almost useless but might weigh in as a tiebreaker factor.

If the definition is relevant, alloy steel has to meet a standard amount of alloying elements to be legally called alloy steel. Again, I'm not a lawyer and I have no idea if there's more going on here. Logically, I think Sears could be expected to use an alloy suitable for wrenches rather than the cheapest stuff they could call alloy steel.

Practically though, I can't see -Sears getting sued because their cheap wrenches were overpriced.

As far as calling me out, feel free! Any discussion which keeps me thinking is a good one.

 

[sberry]

They do use good steel. Not the worlds finest but a "grade" designed for it. It is really difficult to find the true cheap wrenches today. Even those work but the cost for the steel here in the tools isn't much and a little better steel isn't much more than poor steel. Like tobacco, change the tube and the box, fame tobacco, the machine never slows, Allen Cman etc, just change a die or a finish and would cost more to try to QC the steel for every bit than to use it for the same, the generic and the brand, basically add features or finish to the brand and play up the warranty. Snapon isn't being sold proportionally for increased cost of production, say 2X of a Stanley or even 3 but double digit multiples. Plenty of room to spec a better finish or fit from a different line or steel.

 

[sberry]

90% of the worlds wrenches today are basically the same quality with 10% being a pinch better for 10x the price.
Walmart has a lot of power and can pick and choose from China and if a set that is junk for 3$ or can be had from a competitor that is professional strength for 4$ they go for the 4 so they aint got to replace it immediately when a hillbilly gets it and tosses the HF breaker bar to it out in the parking lot to get a stripped wheel off it works. They just sold it to Bubba 5 minutes ago for 26$.
I have never met anyone who seriously used that Stanley stuff ever said a bad word about it but 4 a ratchet or 2