New driveway crumbling - do you agree

[jumpinjoe]

Good morning all! A quick intro, I'm Joe from NH and used to be somewhat of a gearhead with a love for cars until I had an accident eight years ago that left me paralyzed from the neck down.

Well, I recently had a new driveway put in and from day one I've run into serious issues. First with drainage which they hacked up to tried to take care of it and it did not work, and now more recently with the driveway literally crumbling and breaking apart.
We've had problems with pretty much anything and everything sinking into the asphalt including but not limited to, my wheelchair, lawn mower tires and there are event boot imprints from the people who mow my lawn.

When the asphalt crumbles, it ends up on the wheels of my wheelchair, inside the garage and eventually gets tracked in the house and at times it got stuck to the fur and skin of my dog.

I'm getting the runaround from the paving company and they are suggesting to put sand on the driveway to prevent it from crumbling and put plywood over the driveway where vehicles park.

Would a reasonable person be satisfied or dissatisfied with this six month old driveway?
Thank you for your opinion and any suggestions on how I can get this resolved.

 

[Firebrick43]

At the edges the way resentitial driveways are done, that’s normal. Happens on most asphalt county roads. It would have taken a lot of sub base work to prevent most of it that no one wants to pay for.

Image 2179? A large truck on a very hot day can cause such issues as can other equipment.

Sounds like you should have installed a concrete drive.

 

[aandpdan]

Image 1151 looks like oil. That'll damage your driveway too.

 

[Lassen Forge]

I hate repeating what was already said, but yeah, Asphalt takes a long time to cure, and will always have the crumbling problem. You can TRY a chip seal type of approach, but it won't stop the initial issues. If it were me (and I had the $$) I'd redo it in PCC (Portland Cement concrete) and be done with the problem. Sorry!

 

[jumpinjoe]

At the edges the way resentitial driveways are done, that’s normal. Happens on most asphalt county roads. It would have taken a lot of sub base work to prevent most of it that no one wants to pay for.

Image 2179? A large truck on a very hot day can cause such issues as can other equipment.

Sounds like you should have installed a concrete drive.

Thank you for taking a look at the situation. Image 2179 is actually from my wife's minivan

 

[jumpinjoe]

Image 1151 looks like oil. That'll damage your driveway too.

Thank you for taking a closer look at the picture. Image 1151 is actually from my wheelchair when I turned around.

 

[jumpinjoe]

I hate repeating what was already said, but yeah, Asphalt takes a long time to cure, and will always have the crumbling problem. You can TRY a chip seal type of approach, but it won't stop the initial issues. If it were me (and I had the $$) I'd redo it in PCC (Portland Cement concrete) and be done with the problem. Sorry!

Thank you for reading the thread and offering your advice. Sealing the driveway has definitely come to mind and I hope it will at least help with the crumbling. I don't know if Portland cement would be an advisable option here in New Hampshire where we have cold winters and lots of following freezing scenarios. I will certainly ask around though!

 

[pattenp]

What grade asphalt is it. Looks like a very high sand mix.

 

[Jon h]

I think the mix was wrong at the asphalt plant. It shouldn’t be that soft after 6 months.
Jon h.

 

[LWB]

I agree with the above. I also don't think it was compacted enough. The first photo looks like air voids. Asphalt can take a full month to cure. Where are you located and what have the temps been like?

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[DGersic]

I dislike asphalt driveways, but even with that as an acknowledged caveat, there’s no way I’d accept a driveway that your wheelchair sinks in to. That needs to come out and be redone correctly. Probably not by whoever put it in, as they don’t seem to know what they’re doing.

Concrete should be fine. I’m in northern Illinois and we get winter here. Concrete driveways are the norm in my area.

 

[Viper98912]

Hello Joe! And welcome to Garage Journal.

I'm definitely not an expert in asphalt driveways, but while they can crumble (mostly at the edges), lightweight stuff like a wheelchair and lawnmower with wide tires SHOULD NOT be crumbling your driveway nor sticking to your wheelchair. After all, the wide tires on a lawnmower are designed to not damage grass; a driveway should not be impacted by tires.

After you've done the research from the advice given on this thread, if you think the contractor is trying to stick it to you, I'd honestly call one of your local news stations that does investigative stories and tell them to come on down so you can tell yours. Given your circumstances, your daily routine and activities are probably much more challenging than many of ours, and no one on this earth should be taking advantage of anyone, much less someone who has higher-than-average adversities.

Hopefully the news station can help you get this corrected, whether with the existing contractor or someone who's willing to come help fix the mistake.

PS - in terms of a concrete driveway, I lived in Michigan for a while and nearly everyone had concrete driveways (unless you lived on a large plot of land and needed a very long driveway). The only issue the driveway had in the winter was that the snow needed to be plowed and well, because if not it became a skating rink. I think asphalt is better in this regard? less ice buildup?

 

[DGersic]

PS - in terms of a concrete driveway, I lived in Michigan for a while and nearly everyone had concrete driveways (unless you lived on a large plot of land and needed a very long driveway). The only issue the driveway had in the winter was that the snow needed to be plowed and well, because if not it became a skating rink. I think asphalt is better in this regard? less ice buildup?

I have a concrete driveway with an asphalt apron. Both will build up ice if not plowed off. I think asphalt is supposed to be better at not being damaged by road salt.

 

[The Cobbler]

I don't like the crumbling along the edges, it looks like very thin asphalt on top of dirt.
the tire marks, well they are their from cranking wheels when not moving. they will blend in over time. the edges, not so much, in my opinion

 

[billconner]

I had a new asphalt driveway installed last year - way upstate NY - and have none of these problems. Concrete driveways are not favored because NYS uses so much salt. Made a mess of garage door apron 75' from road.

 

[BroncoAZ]

I’m south of you on Cape Cod. My driveway was installed sometime prior to me buying this house just over a year ago, but post 2019 from what I can see on Google Earth. I’m having similar issues with general softness and tires leaving major marks, but not quite as severe as yours. I get marks from someone cranking the tires all the way over while stopped, but nothing from someone’s boots or a wheelchair. I had a large delivery truck move a tire on a hot day and slightly cracked a circle around the tire. I have tried to train everyone driving on it to only turn the steering wheel when the vehicle is moving, but I’m still getting blowing pieces of asphalt off with the leaf blower weekly. I’m also getting some cracks from tree roots pushing up. I spoke to an asphalt guy earlier this summer and he recommended doing a water based coating on the top. He said the quality of the asphalt we are getting in this region just isn’t that great anymore, so this happens. My buddy in the next town over got his driveway done in 2021 and it seems to be holding up great, but his is more of a pull straight in and back straight out unlike mine where the vehicles are turned around near the garage.

 

[zak77]

That is simply a bad job. First off, what prep was done prior to laying the new asphalt? What thickness substrate was put down and compacted? How far did they extend that beyond where the asphalt would be? Did they put down a base and how thick? How thick was the top layer? How heavy of a roller did they use? And what were the temps of the asphalt?

From the pics it appears they didnt make sure the substrate was proper and properly compacted. Plus they probably didnt make sure it extended beyond the edges of the pavement, which causes the edges to break away and crumble. If the overall layer(s) of asphalt are too thin then it cant support the loads placed on it or if the asphalt is too cold it wont bind together, that'll also happen if the crew isnt compacting it enough with the proper machine/tools. I had a guy patch a couple areas of my driveway and have none of the issues you are having. First I made sure to install and compact the substrate properly. Since it was a patch i didnt use a base layer, just top layer, which was compacted with a vib plate compactor and it is still looking the same 8 years later.

To have these problems i think the crew really had to try and screw it up. One time i helped a buddy spread and compact about 500 sq ft of asphalt since my other buddy had a batch of asphalt in his dump truck that got rejected from a job for being too cold. He brought it over so me and several friends all pitched in to spread it and compact it with just a plate compactor and hand tampers. So a group of guys not really knowing too much put down cool asphalt with basically hand tools and it held up pretty damn good for a long time. Now you paid a crew to do it professionally and you have these issues??

Concrete is not used very much in the Northeast due the to freeze/thaw cycles we get plus the amount of salt used will destroy a concrete driveway in a relatively short amount of time which is why most are asphalt.

 

[jeepxj]

looks like bad mix or was put down badly. compaction light maybe.

 

[Danno1]

.

I got a new driveway in May of 23. Tried to keep people fr turning wheels while stopped. Worked for the most part. Did my best not to spill oil on it and never used a jack or jackstands w/o plywood. Got through the first year of curing.

Waited a year and put down HD's best driveway sealer ($35/5gal). Ya I know, DIY quality, but two coats made a big difference. There's two marks on it fr a heavy truck turning around a month or two ago, but it held the pavement together. I'm happy.

.

 

[Fixr]

I have a section of driveway that was paved maybe 10 years ago by an understaffed crew of methheads (2 skinny twitching guys) while I had to be out of town for most of the day. When I got home, the wiring on their ancient roller compactor was on fire and the equipment rental places were closed for the weekend, so it never got nearly the compaction it needed. It has not held up well at all. Any oil or fuel drips make holes, and heavy trucks break it up. The OPs driveway looks very similar.

And the company owner died penniless very shortly after, so we just got screwed. This was the same guy who did an excellent job of paving the most difficult part of the driveway about 10 years earlier, and that part is still in great shape.

 

[nadogail]

I have a section of driveway that was paved maybe 10 years ago by an understaffed crew of methheads (2 skinny twitching guys) while I had to be out of town for most of the day. When I got home, the wiring on their ancient roller compactor was on fire and the equipment rental places were closed for the weekend, so it never got nearly the compaction it needed. It has not held up well at all. Any oil or fuel drips make holes, and heavy trucks break it up. The OPs driveway looks very similar.

And the company owner died penniless very shortly after, so we just got screwed. This was the same guy who did an excellent job of paving the most difficult part of the driveway about 10 years earlier, and that part is still in great shape.

After having a driveway built by two Meth Heads with a defective Roller Compactor, you should not be surprised the Contractor died broke.

 

[Fixr]

After having a driveway built by two Meth Heads with a defective Roller Compactor, you should not be surprised the Contractor died broke.

It turned out to be the last job they ever did. It was a huge disappointment because he did such a good job on the previous work.

 

[jumpinjoe]

That is simply a bad job. First off, what prep was done prior to laying the new asphalt? What thickness substrate was put down and compacted? How far did they extend that beyond where the asphalt would be? Did they put down a base and how thick? How thick was the top layer? How heavy of a roller did they use? And what were the temps of the asphalt?

From the pics it appears they didnt make sure the substrate was proper and properly compacted. Plus they probably didnt make sure it extended beyond the edges of the pavement, which causes the edges to break away and crumble. If the overall layer(s) of asphalt are too thin then it cant support the loads placed on it or if the asphalt is too cold it wont bind together, that'll also happen if the crew isnt compacting it enough with the proper machine/tools. I had a guy patch a couple areas of my driveway and have none of the issues you are having. First I made sure to install and compact the substrate properly. Since it was a patch i didnt use a base layer, just top layer, which was compacted with a vib plate compactor and it is still looking the same 8 years later.

To have these problems i think the crew really had to try and screw it up. One time i helped a buddy spread and compact about 500 sq ft of asphalt since my other buddy had a batch of asphalt in his dump truck that got rejected from a job for being too cold. He brought it over so me and several friends all pitched in to spread it and compact it with just a plate compactor and hand tampers. So a group of guys not really knowing too much put down cool asphalt with basically hand tools and it held up pretty damn good for a long time. Now you paid a crew to do it professionally and you have these issues??

Concrete is not used very much in the Northeast due the to freeze/thaw cycles we get plus the amount of salt used will destroy a concrete driveway in a relatively short amount of time which is why most are asphalt.

Thanks for all the thoughtful comments regarding the situation I find myself in.
The contract says up to 8 inches of crushed gravel as needed but I can verify from my security cam footage the used absolute zero.

They scrape the old asphalt off, then used a bobcat to make lines in the sand and then they paved on top of it.

The contract cost for 2 inches of base layer and 1 1/2 inches of top layer asphalt and a 3–5 ton vibrating compactor.

 

[PassnThru]

Threads like this are why we have trust issues.

 

[4 FN 27]

I would look up the company that did the job and see what kind of reviews they have.

My In-laws got taken by a company that just happened to be in the neighborhood with a few extra loads of asphalt and offered them a heck of a deal. Your pics remind me of their deal gone bad.

A year later they had it pulled out and replaced with Concrete.

As my good friend in the Concrete Industry says: "Asphalt was made to keep the Base dry".

Me, I say "When they start building Bridges from Asphalt I'll have an Asphalt Driveway".

 

[ATC]

I want to know why driveway asphalt is different than road asphalt? You can spin a 40-ton semi around on the road and never leave a mark….yet you look at a driveway wrong and it’s marked for life…

 

[jumpinjoe]

I want to know why driveway asphalt is different than road asphalt? You can spin a 40-ton semi around on the road and never leave a mark….yet you look at a driveway wrong and it’s marked for life…

I believe they are the same. All of the local paving companies get their asphalt from the same plant which has a huge fleet of trucks to do the local roads and highways.

A couple of questions come to mind. Did they apply the asphalt properly? Did they Add anything to it like recycled materials?

My neighbor had a driveway put in four months ago from another company but the asphalt came from the same place. There is not a single mark to be found on their entire driveway and they leave cars parked on it all the time.

 

[DGersic]

I want to know why driveway asphalt is different than road asphalt? You can spin a 40-ton semi around on the road and never leave a mark….yet you look at a driveway wrong and it’s marked for life…

I don’t think the difference is in the product. The road crew are paid to get it right, and the price doesn’t matter. The driveway guys are paid to do it as cheap as possible.

 

[Adaylate]

Make sure when you are talking asphalt, you are talking compacted thickness of the asphalt!

 

[Lassen Forge]

There are different grades of asphalt (which is the black oily sticky stuff that holds the aggregate (rock) - the black stuff that is the road is "Asphaltic Concrete" (AC) as opposed to "Portland Cement Concrete" (PCC), the grey-white stuff that are fairly common as well) depending on use, ambient temperature, etc... There are 2 factors to AC - one is the size and composition of the aggregate (rock, sand, etc.) and the other is the "grade" (eg weight) of the Asphalt (much like your car oil, asphalt can go from fairly think to fairly thick).... If you use the wrong one, you get issues. For example - Too light an asphalt in hot weather, you get the nevercureing gooey mess. Too heavy an asphalt in cold weather, eventually you get raveling and/or gator cracking... Add to all that - if the asphalt is laid too hot or (worse) too cold, it's gonna fail... OR if it's laid and the weather is too cold... well, yeah. And if it sits too long after leaving the batch plant (the aggregate falls out of the mix)... if it's not 450º F... Allowed to get cold...

There are about a dozen ways this thing turned into a mess...

Until I worked in the industry, I had absolutely NO idea how complicated it was - I just figured "It's road tar, how complicated can it be??" Turns out it's pretty darn complicated.

Interesting factoid - in a number of our "snow yards" (facilities where you get snow and freezing weather) they have concrete wash out pads, and ALL of them have an (anti freeze and selv contained) hydronic heating system in the concrete pads. If the temp goes below, IIRC, 28-30º F the hydronic system kicks on and keeps the pad at about 45-50F... It's not a cheap solution, but they don't have to worry about chloride contamination and disintegration of the concrete (as long as someone remembers to flush the pad afterwards).
.

 

[jumpstart]

Looks to me like installation failure. If they removed the prior driveway, but didn't compact before laying the new mix, I can see it failing quickly. Also, if they didn't take the time to properly compact the base mix then compact to top layer of mix, this can be the result. In New Hampshire, much of the state route work is done with a PMST top layer. Very sandy mix design, but results in a great roadway. It's all about proper base and proper installation. Unfortunately OP didn't get either.