52X45ish. Located in Iowa, can't find much on the interwebs. After talking to several contractors, most are saying 4 inches which is what is currently there but 10 years in has a lot of cracks and settling. Found a guy I am comfortable with, talking 6 inches and rebar, might use colored concrete for curb appeal. Is there a good site or a thread here about concrete. I want to do it one more time and be done for good but can't find much info. I would like to go into the decision more informed. Thanks
New Driveway, Help Please
- Thread starter Slow_Lane
- Start date
In2toys
Well-known member
fiber mesh. I hate to see that stuff when I'm breaking out driveways... or wire mesh, IF its pulled up out of the dirt & into the concrete.
LB-1911
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Give this a read -
A residential contractor must ensure that the site builder avoids the temptation to poorly prepare a subgrade.
A low-quality subgrade results in unexpected settling and water accumulation against the foundation leading to seepage and a weakening of the foundation.
Poorly compacted subgrades also can be cited for the cracking and sinking of sidewalks, driveways, and patios.
Ultimately, it is the homeowner who will bear the repair expenses, especially when settlement causes slabs to move water in the direction of the house.
Proper Subgrade Prep
http://www.concreteconstruction.net/sitework/proper-subgrade-prep.aspx
Proper Concrete Driveway Base Preparation Is Vital To The Life Of A Driveway
http://www.allaboutdriveways.com/co...tallation/concrete-driveway-base-preparation/
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dfiler2
Well-known member
However if you don't want to be tearing it up again in 10 years, go with the 6" depth and the rebar.
Leaflessshadetree
Well-known member
It's all about having a solid base. 4" is thick enough for most driveways. Without a good base 6" will crack as well.
The bid for the guy I am thinking about going with is close to 4K more but he wanted to spend the extra money on base and rebar while working the slope and drainage. Which is why I am leaning that way. Is the mesh that much better than rebar? Less work or more?
LB-1911
ALLIANCE MEMBER
mesh or rebar in driveway?
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75245
new concrete driveway rebar or??
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48524
More @
https://www.google.com/#q=mesh+vs.+rebar+for+a+driveway+site:www.garagejournal.com
6768rogues
Banned
Thicker is better. You can also increase the strength, so find out what is being used. Steel or mesh should be on chairs. Make sure it is air entrained. No saw cut joints, tooled joints are better outside. I would use a light broom finish, but do not use a smooth hard troweled finish. Put curing sealer on as soon as you can get on it. I assume you are in a freeze/thaw area, since I saw Iowa by your name.
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What are you putting on it? Automobiles or heavy loads?
Reseda
Member
Just got done with my concrete driveway project last week. I talked to several contractors and they all told me that they can't guarantee that the concrete will not crack. Especially where I am: earthquake area. They say it's just the nature of concrete. My neighbor's concrete driveway, which is only about 6 months old, already has a hairline crack going across. The guys who built my neighbor's driveway put compacted base and rebar. While researching for my own driveway project, I've read numerous times that having a properly placed base is very important.
Wow! that price is a steal compared to my area. I've spent about 4K and the driveway is only about a truck load of concrete. I've placed 2" of base and rebar at 16" o.c. Yours is about 3-4 truck loads of concrete with base and rebar.
Wow! that price is a steal compared to my area. I've spent about 4K and the driveway is only about a truck load of concrete. I've placed 2" of base and rebar at 16" o.c. Yours is about 3-4 truck loads of concrete with base and rebar.
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Will just be using it for cars, no heavy equipment. Reseda I wish it was only 4K. Depending on staining and stamping the bill will be 17-20K That's why I am researching. It's a lot of money, I want it one and done. Thanks for all the input. I had not even thought about the saw cuts vs hand tooled. Always a wealth of knowledge here.
Can't go wrong with this advice. I have a parking area for my truck and trailers. Mirafi fabric down first, 10" of #2 stone tamped tight 6" thick concrete with rebar. Cut into 10' X 12' sections. No cracks or shifting after twelve years. And we just had the coldest month on record for a February.
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DangerousDan55
Well-known member
Like the song says...... it's all about the Base, the Base, the Base!
Put 10" drive over a soft area, you'll still have problems.
Put 10" drive over a soft area, you'll still have problems.
ms fowler
Well-known member
Not enough information.
If the subsoil is stable, and dry, and well drained, you can get by with less base, and skip the geo-textile ( Mirafi or equal).
However, if the subsoil is expansive ( clay) and holds moisture, then you need more base, and probably some geo-textile.
Since you are looking to spend a considerable amount, contact a local geo/ soil/ foundation engineer. You should be able to get a site visit, some quick testing and recommendations for under $500. That may seem like a lot, but if the engineer saves you from doing too much ( or not enough) its money well spent.
Oh, and the number one rule of concrete construction is, " CONCRETE CRACKS !!!!" Sometimes we can influence it where to crack, but it will crack. If you can get it to crack in the control joints consider yourself very good at concrete construction ( or just plain lucky).
If the subsoil is stable, and dry, and well drained, you can get by with less base, and skip the geo-textile ( Mirafi or equal).
However, if the subsoil is expansive ( clay) and holds moisture, then you need more base, and probably some geo-textile.
Since you are looking to spend a considerable amount, contact a local geo/ soil/ foundation engineer. You should be able to get a site visit, some quick testing and recommendations for under $500. That may seem like a lot, but if the engineer saves you from doing too much ( or not enough) its money well spent.
Oh, and the number one rule of concrete construction is, " CONCRETE CRACKS !!!!" Sometimes we can influence it where to crack, but it will crack. If you can get it to crack in the control joints consider yourself very good at concrete construction ( or just plain lucky).
Ms Fowler it is clay and saturated. fought it when we did the addition 10 years ago. Not familiar with geo textile? But will do some research. I will see what we have local for an engineer $500.00 would be money well spent. That's is why I like the more expensive guy. He had a lot of the same concerns as the people who chimed in here. Most of the guys were all about tear out and 4 inches. He even talked about gutter drainage. We just had a roof put on and waiting on gutters. He had some good ideas about moving downspouts to help with drainage. Please keep the ideas coming everyone. Gonna put my money where my mouth is soon.
Working on my brothers house and started on my in-laws house today. Gave the concrete guy the go ahead on 04-17 for my driveway and have not seen or talked to him since. Had a guy over Sunday and he called tonight with a quote and it went from 16900.00 to 25500.00 I guess I know why the first guy never showed up or started working. Which is amazing since the guy I gave the go ahead to was the most expensive.
Chitown_hillbilly
Well-known member
Sounds like some lazy contractors. Every Million $ house within 1 hour of me has a paver drive, and you're climate can't be much different than mine. I would think that the labor costs for something that big would be a deal killer for pavers though.
Not sure the freeze thaw and clay is the real reason.......lived in Chicago, clay was common in the area but brick pavers are very common. Pavers are not cheap when done right, but very repairable and often choosen for the look. Often per sq ft pavers can be double the price of concrete that might the reason they will come to measure........it's a very tough sell in many neighborhoods $$$$$.
wssix99
Well-known member
First, if you really care about this, I would not believe everything you read on the internet. If you go to a good library, you should be able to curl up with this and get a lot of good, authoritative information: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0893122483/?tag=atomicindus08-20 (The cost of the book, itself is probably the better part of a driveway!)
If you want to get technical - this is a good one: https://www.concrete.org/store/productdetail.aspx?ItemID=36010
This is excessive. The thicker you go with the concrete, the more rebar you need to counteract the extra shrinkage stresses the thicker concrete develops. This really drives the cost up fast!
A rebar spec also means nothing unless it is paired with the spacing if your saw cut/tool joints. (The further they are, the more steel you need to conteract shrinkage stress.)
Strength-wise, you should be able to get premium performance by going thicker on your base material instead of thicker with your slab. This should reduce cost for you a ton.
If you want to get technical - this is a good one: https://www.concrete.org/store/productdetail.aspx?ItemID=36010
This is excessive. The thicker you go with the concrete, the more rebar you need to counteract the extra shrinkage stresses the thicker concrete develops. This really drives the cost up fast!
A rebar spec also means nothing unless it is paired with the spacing if your saw cut/tool joints. (The further they are, the more steel you need to conteract shrinkage stress.)
Strength-wise, you should be able to get premium performance by going thicker on your base material instead of thicker with your slab. This should reduce cost for you a ton.
i'm in northern illinois, so same weather as you. i never heard of such a thing. i've done several paver drives myself with no issues whatsoever.
Kevin54
MEMBER EMERITUS
Fiber mesh will NOT prevent the concrete from cracking. Wire mesh will NOT prevent the concrete form cracking. Rebar will NOT prevent the concrete from cracking. A good mix, and no overworking will help it not to crack. One member told me that there are only two guarantees for concrete, and that it is guaranteed against fire and theft.
Rebar is your best bet when it comes to concrete. IF it cracks, the rebar will prevent it from creating a trip hazard. Fiber or wire mesh WILL NOT do that.
What you want is a good compacted base, and control joints no more than 10' apart. When it cracks, it will crack in the joints, hopefully. Avoid any "points" on the concrete where a section goes into another section but may leave a "vee" or an upside down "vee". An area like that will tend to crack. Don't let them overwork the concrete. If they have the correct mix and slump, they should screed it, bull float it, then broom it.
Also.....DO NOT pour on a hot day as the concrete will set up too fast. We ran into this on my pour when it was 90 degrees at about 8:00 am. Even with a vapor barrier underneath, the sun sucked the moisture right out of the concrete.
Good luck and post up some pics
Rebar is your best bet when it comes to concrete. IF it cracks, the rebar will prevent it from creating a trip hazard. Fiber or wire mesh WILL NOT do that.
What you want is a good compacted base, and control joints no more than 10' apart. When it cracks, it will crack in the joints, hopefully. Avoid any "points" on the concrete where a section goes into another section but may leave a "vee" or an upside down "vee". An area like that will tend to crack. Don't let them overwork the concrete. If they have the correct mix and slump, they should screed it, bull float it, then broom it.
Also.....DO NOT pour on a hot day as the concrete will set up too fast. We ran into this on my pour when it was 90 degrees at about 8:00 am. Even with a vapor barrier underneath, the sun sucked the moisture right out of the concrete.
Good luck and post up some pics
if ruts are a concern for him, then i'd be finding another paver guy, becuase he is probably one of those who just set pavers on 4" base.
pavers do require a thicker gravel base. i did 12" on my drive. using geotextiles helps also.
Fiber mesh will NOT prevent the concrete from cracking. Wire mesh will NOT prevent the concrete form cracking. Rebar will NOT prevent the concrete from cracking. A good mix, and no overworking will help it not to crack. One member told me that there are only two guarantees for concrete, and that it is guaranteed against fire and theft.
Rebar is your best bet when it comes to concrete. IF it cracks, the rebar will prevent it from creating a trip hazard. Fiber or wire mesh WILL NOT do that.
What you want is a good compacted base, and control joints no more than 10' apart. When it cracks, it will crack in the joints, hopefully. Avoid any "points" on the concrete where a section goes into another section but may leave a "vee" or an upside down "vee". An area like that will tend to crack. Don't let them overwork the concrete. If they have the correct mix and slump, they should screed it, bull float it, then broom it.
Also.....DO NOT pour on a hot day as the concrete will set up too fast. We ran into this on my pour when it was 90 degrees at about 8:00 am. Even with a vapor barrier underneath, the sun sucked the moisture right out of the concrete.
Good luck and post up some pics
exactly. all the steel does is it makes it harder to tear out.
best thing to do is put many control joints( or saw cuts). then the concrete will crack in those joints.
call these guys. 2nd generation concrete contractors from waterloo.
http://www.sweerinbrothersmasonry.com/home.html
http://www.sweerinbrothersmasonry.com/home.html
Think that base recommendation of 10-12" is good for blacktop, concrete and pavers...........it stops many of the settling, cracking issues no matter the surface choice.
4" of gravel base on blacktop drive and freeze thaw climate almost guarantees a short service life.
BASE........more is better..........sorta like insulation there diminishing returns.
**** job when a base is not defined. 1-2"
Builder just get by budget 3-5"
Basic "good job" minimum 6-8". Often called out as the paver standard
No come backs, your house 8-10"
Your for ever house 20 years. 12"
Compacted at regular intervals .......and the dump truck does not count as a compactor
The obvious answer on base is going to change with what your starting with. Three feet of peat moss or 2 foot of gravel sand mix or 10 feet of expansive clay or working on sand dune all change the existing excation and compacted base.
**** job when a base is not defined. 1-2"
Builder just get by budget 3-5"
Basic "good job" minimum 6-8". Often called out as the paver standard
No come backs, your house 8-10"
Your for ever house 20 years. 12"
Compacted at regular intervals .......and the dump truck does not count as a compactor
The obvious answer on base is going to change with what your starting with. Three feet of peat moss or 2 foot of gravel sand mix or 10 feet of expansive clay or working on sand dune all change the existing excation and compacted base.
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wssix99
Well-known member
That's a lot. The thicker the base, the more the load will get spread out on the soil below. (This should lead to less movement over time and allows one to build on softer soil.) When you get in to 12" of base, that's more like a roadway than a driveway.
What vehicles are you going to drive on the driveway and how fast will you be going? (Maybe you want something more like a roadway?)
Currently have a 3/4 ton Ram but shopping for a one ton dually, a van and mustang so nothing crazy big. I do have a small trailer 10X8 and a 37 foor camper. The camper is kept at the shop and in 4 years has never been on the driveway. If I ever hit 5 MPH I should probably not be driving so very low speed.
No experience with concrete driveways. (I have a 200 yard driveway and am not rich) However, There is a book, "The Concrete World", I think that is the tilte, and it discusses the history of concrete. One point connected to the present discussion is that rebar in concrete rusts. As it rusts the rust swells and cracks the concrete. The point is made that there are no 100 year old structures made using rebar. There is the famous Roman Pantheon which is over a thousand years old, it is a concrete dome, but it does not have rebar. I suspect, however, that a concrete driveway with rebar will outlive the OP.
KEH
KEH
wssix99
Well-known member
That's all low-load stuff. A regular 4 inch pad should be plenty, with regard to the concrete.
It's probably worth some investigation to figure out how your old driveway got torn up. (It sounds like the pad should have been adequate, so the base or drainage would be suspect.)
Can you post some pictures of the settlement/cracking? Do you have a feel for how deep your base is under the concrete?
I will take some better pics in the morning. The driveway that was poured in 1978 is actually better than the driveway addition done 12 years ago. Under the newer driveway, I can tell you there is NO base other then the clay soil. That is why I am wanting to do it right this time and be done. I was running over budget on the addition and had to save money somewhere and the driveway seemed like the place to do it at the time. I have been wanting to finish the garages off on the inside but before I do I need to spend the money on the driveway. I took a picture tonight from above but it actually widens under the deck to 4.5 cars wide. I know the base is going to be a big deal and right now their is none that I know of.
Attachments
More base is only better if it's installed in lifts and compacted thoroughly after each one. I've seen shady crews dump 6" of class 5 or crushed road base, run over it a few times with the tracked skid and call it good. In that case, there will probably be even more settling than a properly compacted 3" base.
I went with pavers, 15" base compacted in 2" lifts, geotextile underneath on clay soil. No ruts at all where it's constantly driven over after 3 years now so I'm happy with all the cost/time it took for the prep work.
I went with pavers, 15" base compacted in 2" lifts, geotextile underneath on clay soil. No ruts at all where it's constantly driven over after 3 years now so I'm happy with all the cost/time it took for the prep work.
nadogail
Well-known member
To me it seems that it is the nature of concrete to develop cracks. My concrete cracks are pretty well controlled by tooled control joints.
I will never again have colored concrete, the color is a maintenance problem. The color layer is both thin and fragile.
I will never again have colored concrete, the color is a maintenance problem. The color layer is both thin and fragile.
My in-laws stained some concrete with a spray and it was not good in a lot of spaces. The stain I was thinking of using is added to the concrete itself so color would be uniform threw the whole pad. Has anyone had any experience with that type of stain?
yeah, if concrete is to be colored, its best to mix the color powder in with the mix so that its colored all the way through.
some techniques just color the surface, which is not what i'd do.