New electrical- two simple questions

[FakeName]

Planning the electrical on my one-car shop. One wall is shared with the backyard that has a parking spot, and I'd like to pre-wire for an external box that has a 220 on the outside for charging electric car (we don't need to debate- the wife wants one) and another on the inside for a welder- nothing huge, probably a little Lincoln.

Currently, inside walls are open and I can do whatever I'd like, and I have plenty of spots open on the subpanel. I don't anticipate needing to weld while a car is charging. Frankly, I doubt I'll ever charge a car there, but it will make the wife very happy.

How would you do this? I have 2x4 wooden stud walls, the outside is stucco.

Thanks.

 

[malibu101]

Well at this point you are talking conduit. You can pull what you need depending on your needs.
You know you need 240V but you don't know how many amps.

Without knowing the amperage (for wire size) and wether it needs a neutral or not it's impossible to say what wire you need.

The welder- again, what size? A little 120V 20A MIG or the "normal" 240V 50A outlet for a "big" welder.

Please supply more info.

 

[Speedy Petey]

Not much more I can add to Malibu. Although I disagree about conduit. I'd just get the specs for what you are getting and run cable.

It is a typical myth that "220" is all that is needed to know to run a circuit.

 

[FakeName]

Thank you.

Yes, a little research tells me the charging stations want as much as 30 amps, or as little as 16.

I have plenty of 20 amp circuits for the smaller welders if necessary.

Thanks again.

 

[Speedy Petey]

If you want to do this ahead of time my suggesting is to run a 50A circuit for a welder and a 30A circuit for the car.

Editorial:
WHY you would want/allow an all electric car in your life is BEYOND me! NONE of them have proven themselves to be anything more than a gimmick.
And same as the Prius, their SOLE function is to make the owners feel better about themselves. PERIOD.

 

[Gregishome]

Hey , Hey, now. I about stepped out in front of one of those Japanese quiet cars and made a fat hood ornament for it.

I miss the rumble of the 427's and 440's, no stepping out in front of those guys, your feet could feel they were coming round the corner .

 

[malibu101]

Not much more I can add to Malibu. Although I disagree about conduit. I'd just get the specs for what you are getting and run cable.

It is a typical myth that "220" is all that is needed to know to run a circuit.

I fully agree with just running NM cable within the wall if you know what you need. Otherwise conduit will allow for future expansion/change very easily.

For example if you run 6AWG to be on the safe side for a "normal" welder circuit and only need a 20A circuit, the wire will probably be too big to fit under the terminals of the smaller amperage devices.
Running a 3-wire cable just in case of needing a neutral for a 240V circuit is not a big deal, just some more cost.

Again, to the OP- What are your amperage needs?

 

[FakeName]

If you want to do this ahead of time my suggesting is to run a 50A circuit for a welder and a 30A circuit for the car.

Editorial:
WHY you would want/allow an all electric car in your life is BEYOND me! NONE of them have proven themselves to be anything more than a gimmick.
And same as the Prius, their SOLE function is to make the owners feel better about themselves. PERIOD.

"we don't need to debate- the wife wants one"

Wonder what part of this is unclear?

 

[FakeName]

I fully agree with just running NM cable within the wall if you know what you need. Otherwise conduit will allow for future expansion/change very easily.

For example if you run 6AWG to be on the safe side for a "normal" welder circuit and only need a 20A circuit, the wire will probably be too big to fit under the terminals of the smaller amperage devices.
Running a 3-wire cable just in case of needing a neutral for a 240V circuit is not a big deal, just some more cost.

Again, to the OP- What are your amperage needs?

Now THIS is helpful and thank you.

I apologize for my lack of understanding the issue. As posted, the car charger runs between 16 and 30 amps, depending on the brand of the charger. I realize welders will differ, and that's part of my question.

I know somewhere out there is someone that can tell me running a 6-3 cable would allow me to use a small welder, but not a Bajiggawatt Star Wars Special.

I know someone out there is able to make a non-confrontational and helpful suggestion that would meet the needs of a small one-car shop, and help me understand the advantages and disadvantages of the wire/box selection.

Thank you.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Are you planning on mounting the charger inside the garage or outside? I've only looked at them casually before so I did some checking and found this website showing the chargers available for the Chevy Volt: https://homecharging.spx.com/volt/Display.aspx?id=6&menu=2 It appears the charger itself gets hard wired to the panel. They have a couple styles there, one takes a 30 amp circuit and another takes a 20 amp circuit. I imagine other kinds of cars may use something different.

 

[Thruxton]

Here is my two cents: catalog shop and download the manual for the largest MIG welder you think you would ever buy, and look at the manufacturer's spec for the required circuit breaker rating. Ditto for chargers for your EV, compressors, whatever. You may be surprised. My Hobart Handler 175 requires a 20A breaker, even though the plug is a NEMA 6-50 (clothes dryer 50A type). What the current rating on the name plate is isn't necessarily directly related to the manufacturer' spec for the breaker rating. This will keep you out of the trouble malibu101 referred to, overwiring and then finding you have problems with receptacles etc.

 

[Thruxton]

And Stuart in MN is on the right track (somehow missed that before I replied).

 

[FakeName]

Are you planning on mounting the charger inside the garage or outside? I've only looked at them casually before so I did some checking and found this website showing the chargers available for the Chevy Volt: https://homecharging.spx.com/volt/Display.aspx?id=6&menu=2 It appears the charger itself gets hard wired to the panel. They have a couple styles there, one takes a 30 amp circuit and another takes a 20 amp circuit. I imagine other kinds of cars may use something different.

Thanks, Stuart.

The only charging station experience I have is rom a job I recently photographed for a local utility, and they uses the BLINK charging station. But those are often setup or two cars. Their smaller unit (as well as others in Home Depot online) are wall-mounted.

The charging station (if it's ever used) will mount outside. Inside is, of course, reserved for motorcycles.

 

[Speedy Petey]

"we don't need to debate- the wife wants one"

Wonder what part of this is unclear?

Ooooo..so sorry I didn't follow your rules.

It wasn't a debate, it was an opinion. Sorry if I hit a nerve.

 

[Speedy Petey]

Now THIS is helpful and thank you.
....

I know someone out there is able to make a non-confrontational and helpful suggestion that would meet the needs of a small one-car shop, and help me understand the advantages and disadvantages of the wire/box selection.

Zing! Funny how I gave similar answers and opinions on the subject previously, but my little editorial set off your sensitivity alarm.


The biggest welder you'll likely ever encounter in a typical residential application is a stick welder, although those are all but obsolete, 'ceptn for farms and such.
My Millermatic 175 has the same 50A plug as my 230A stick welder does, yet it only draws less than 30A @ 240v. Very convenient if you ask me since so many already have the 50A receptacle. THIS is why I originally suggested a 30A for the charger and 50A for the welder.

As for the chargers, same deal, find the biggest one you think you'd ever get and wire for that. I'd also run a 3-wire just in case it needs a neutral.
No welder I have ever see or wired has needed a neutral.

 

[FakeName]

Zing! Funny how I gave similar answers and opinions on the subject previously, but my little editorial set off your obnoxious alarm.

I appreciate your technical input, thank you.

 

[eljefino]

I think it's swell. Like proudly showing off an ornate saddle because you're going to get a horse "one day". And it's something realtors like to throw in to show one has a "green" house. Even if it just means RVs can park there and mooch.

Has the gauge wire and breaker for your sub panel been covered? You'll probably just want 100 amp service entrance stuff.

 

[FakeName]

Ha!

That's ok, guys- I have plenty of self-aggrandizing liberal friends that will tell me how my life should be lead and offer their lifestyle opinions where they're not wanted.

When the rubber hits the road, there's little difference between the political agendas of both sides of the aisle- either live and believe what I do, or you're wrong.

But back to the real subject:

I have a 60 amp service box, and rarely use power tools- mostly hand wrenching, a 120v simple compressor and the occasional grinder and drill press. It is entirely possible the service is insufficient to support the uses I've outlined- just say so and we can all happily move on.

Thank you once again for the technical information, and the warm welcome back to GJ.

 

[brewchief]

How close to the panel do you want the plug and how close is the future charger location?

If they are both close or if it wasn't going to make my life hell I would simply run a 3/4" or 1" conduit, end them both with a deep 4x4 box and put a blank cover on them.
When you buy a welder you can size the wire, breaker and plug to the welder.
Plan the box for the charger so you can pop out a knockout and go right out the back of the box and drill to the outside and use a ****** to connect to the charger.

Conduit is pretty cheap and this would offer good flexibility in the future if you ask me.

 

[FakeName]

How close to the panel do you want the plug and how close is the future charger location?

If they are both close or if it wasn't going to make my life hell I would simply run a 3/4" or 1" conduit, end them both with a deep 4x4 box and put a blank cover on them.
When you buy a welder you can size the wire, breaker and plug to the welder.
Plan the box for the charger so you can pop out a knockout and go right out the back of the box and drill to the outside and use a ****** to connect to the charger.

Conduit is pretty cheap and this would offer good flexibility in the future if you ask me.

Thank you sir!

I considered the conduit option, but the box, while close to the desired location, is on the other side of a doorway. It would require at least 4 90% bends, and I suspect that beyond code here. I might be OK, I'll check.

Would you use EMT or PVC? Either OK through the walls? Might be a little tricky through the wooden studs..

Thanks again for you help, I appreciate it!

 

[Speedy Petey]

You could use ENT (Smurf tube). It's real easy to run between studs. You just have to keep the sweeps real wide, and be careful of setbacks from the stud edges.

 

[FakeName]

"Smurf tube"

Love it, thanks.

I guess that'd allow me to cut more graceful arcs with my turns, resulting in easier pulls?

 

[Speedy Petey]

Yeah. It can be a ***** to pull through sometimes, but there are times when it is a lifesaver.