New garage door install rant….sorry!!

[69charged]

Hello all. Last November I had a new clopay garage door installed by the shop I bought the door from. I wasn’t there to watch, as I was at work and the door came in early so I said go ahead and install it. They charged me 100 extra, which I thought was more than fair.
I got home 3 weeks later and saw the install they did. It was horrible. There were gaps everywhere letting the cold in after I had bought the R-18 insulated door, for 6500 bucks!!!
we called them back and said they would come look at it at their next earliest convenience. It’s now almost April and they haven’t been back yet. I have played with the door and weather stripping to make it better, but I still have to put towels at the top and sides to seal it. Horrible for the money I spent.
Anyway, they also installed a low headroom track, which is absolutely terrible.
I want to redo the whole thing with normal track. I’m looking into what’s available for radius. I see 10”, 12”, and 15”. The 10” says it needs 12” of clearance above. I have 11”. I must be able to make something work here. What are everyone’s thoughts on the tracking, and if anyone has gone through this before, any advice would be greatly appreciated. I’ve installed about 20 doors before, so it’s not new to me. When I talked to them about the track, he told me to buy a trolley style opener. That it would pull the door open farther. I said I want to install a jack shaft opener, and he told me no, they are too expensive. Nice. Tell me what to spend and what not to.
I'll get pictures up when I can, as I’m away at work right now.
sorry for the long rant!!
clarence

 

[Cairo94507]

I would stop into their showroom and talk to the owner/manager and explain the issue and how dissatisfied you are. Take pictures with you. I would then give them the opportunity to come out and make it right before you do anything else. Given social media and Yelp, etc., most reputable businesses will not want the bad publicity.

 

[Boatman62]

If you are paying for the opener and want a jack shaft opener why would they care what the cost is?

What is the issue with the low headroom track they installed?

 

[jstroede]

Ok other than a rant, there isn't a lot of information there. Take a deep breath and relax.

First of all, what is the problem with the low headroom track. What size door is this? Pictures would be helpful as well. There are a couple of different types of low headroom track, so knowing what you have exactly would be helpful.

As far as the gapping goes, did they install the weatherstrip? If the weatherstrip was already there, getting a new door to match up to that can be extremely difficult. Where are your gaps at the header? I am going to guess out at the ends of the door and that your header is bowed in. That is a common problem, and low headroom top fixtures are basically non adjustable, so that can be problematic. Most likely your door installation is fine, it just needs properly sealed. If they installed the seals, then that is on them. If they did not, then if you want the doors to seal up then you are most likely going to need to purchase new.

Next their recommendation of a trolley opener with low headroom track is spot on. In the right applications, jackshaft operators are great. Low headroom or even 10" radius isn't one of them. By design, the vertical tracks on low headroom are shorter, and the door will hang in the opening. The trolley opener is able to pull the door open as much as possible, but this usually sort of back winds the drums (I am assuming that you have torsion springs but that is an assumption on my part based on even talking about a jackshaft opener). Usually not a big deal, but a jackshaft is not able to do that. If you only have 11" of headroom, what exactly are you trying to gain with the jackshaft opener? They have their place, but they are not the end-all of openers.

John

 

[69charged]

Well, I did say it was a rant in the description!

So the low headroom track style that I have is a double track, one on top of the other. My wife has a hard time to open the door manually for now, because of the way the top panel opens and closes. Also, because of the track design, the top panel can also kind of flop in and out, so it comes away from the door seal easily. The seals were existing ones, and on my previous door, I had regular tracks. Everything on my previous door worked good, and sealed. I went to a new door for the design that we wanted. That’s why I would prefer to go with regular tracks, as I know it can be done cause my old one was like that.
As for the opener, I was preferring the cleaner design and quietness of a jack shaft opener. It’s not a design limitation or anything like that. More of a personal preference thing.
This particular picture is not of my door as I’m not at home, but it exactly what I have. With the stiffener as well. So with the play that is in the idler wheel, and shaft of the wheel, the top panel moves in and out. I understand his suggestion to use a trolley mount opener. It would push on the panel in the close position and not allow that to move. It was more I didn’t want to use a trolley style, and a jack shaft one would work I think if I had normal tracks.
thoughts?
clarence

 

[BillK]

Clarence,

Sounds like the first thing you need to do is replace the outside weatherstripping. Its probably hard as a rock.

Not sure how a jackshaft opener does as far as making sure the top of the door seals. I know my trolley type pushes the door up against the top seal. I have normal tracks on mine.

I also do not understand why a Jackshaft type opener wouldnt work with your present tracks but I have never seen one installed.

I'm not sure that the installers really did anything wrong.

 

[dave*99]

I have the same type of low clearance double tracks on 2 doors. Also have a trolley opener on one. I can confirm that is the correct opener for that system. It does push the top of the door tight. My other door does not have an opener. The wind rattles it in and out. I, and the installed do not see a solution to that.

If you can eliminate the double tracks, you might get a better seal even without an opener. But if you use a trolley opener it will seal.

I have 2 other doors with high lift tracks and jackshaft openers. I can see how the jackshaft opener would not be able to help the door seal.

 

[vavet]

When a crew shows up to install a R18 door, they should realize the customer paid a premium for that door. If it was important enough to the customer to pay for an insulated door, then the installation should be done to take advantage of that. If the weatherstripping is too hard or misaligned, then maybe a good installation is not possible. Start the conversation.
At this point, OP thinks this door company is a bunch of yahoos. If they called him after seeing it and said, hey, we can't get a good seal without new weatherstripping, a weatherstripping relocation kit, or widgit #1423, then it's a opportunity for OP to know that they are trying to do a good installation.

I used to turn wrenches for a living. I asked for a customer complaining about wind noise to ride with me one time because I couldn't hear what he was complaining about. I told him I want to fix your car, but I can't fix what I can't hear.

 

[69charged]

Dave, thanks for the input. I understand your points totally. I don’t think a jack shaft opener will help seal. I believe that can be accomplished with normal tracking. I guess I am also looking for suggestions as well on what options I have going forward, and if I can use 10” radius tracking, or 12” or whatever if someone else has had similar problems. John earlier mentioned that maybe 10” tracking wouldn’t be ideal with a jack shaft opener?
Has someone used that combo?
I appreciate all the points brought up already, and am thinking about them all.
Clarence

 

[69charged]

Thanks for that. Yeah. I would have thought they should know I wanted it sealed. That’s why I wanted to be there when they installed it. But that didn’t happen. So I admit, I have been fooling around with the door to try seal it better. My last resort for now is to move the weather stripping closer to the door. It was -28c when I was playing with it so I didn’t go outside!
it’s just not what I expected for what I paid is what it boils down to here.
clarence

 

[jstroede]

If you spent that kind of money on a new door, spend a few extra dollars on new seals. Install the seals to the door, not the other way around. Put a trolley opener on it, and you will have a well sealed door. A good opener like a liftmaster 8550 DC drive with soft start and stop is a great opener for low headroom applications, and QUIET. It is very unfair of you to blame the installer to seal your door with old seals. This is a simple fix, that doesn't cost much.

Jackshaft openers have problems sealing doors at the top in general. The rollers are not perfectly tight in the track (they wouldn't function if they were) so the top section will move with wind, ect. Don't get me wrong, I have installed liftmaster RJO and they are great in some applications, but they are not without limitations and faults.

Go get some new seals and install them. You didn't purchase them from the door dealer, so it is not his responsibility.

John

 

[69charged]

John, not trying to be argumentative here, but I have to respectfully disagree. I think I paid more than top dollar for the door and install. I am so far from cheap, and the door seals are almost brand new. I totally get you have to adjust seals for the door, and I completely expected them to do just that. But, as I said, I’ll do it.
I normally don’t say s**t if my mouth was full of it. I literally do everything myself because I want it done a certain way, and properly. Not trying to come off that I know it all, or spoiled or something like that. It’s just the way I am. Like a lot of us on here. If someone says no it can’t be done, I ask why. If I feel it’s a valid reason it can’t be done then ok. I truly mean that I appreciate your input. And maybe the trolley opener is the only way possible to achieve what I want. After coming on here and getting all kinds of input, I’m better able to make the proper decision.
I once spent 5 grand for a new entry way door, custom painted and all fancy. After it was installed, it would build up frost around the door. I pulled the drywall down and the installer didn’t put any insulation in at all for about a foot around the door! I didn’t call back because if that’s the job they were going to do, then I couldn’t reasonably expect a different result the second time. So I fixed it all myself to my satisfaction. I view this as no different.
thanks all
Clarence

 

[dave*99]

A jackshaft opener relies on gravity and the weight of the door to close the door. Sometimes a kicker spring is used to start the door downward, but gravity takes over after a few inches of travel.

If your tracks are going to be nearly horizontal, I don't see how a jackshaft opener can close the door. It will just try to unwind the spool and the tension gauge will stop it to avoid a tangled mess.

 

[mepstein]

For that much money, the install should have been perfect.

 

[BillK]

Just curious why you went with the low headroom track or was that the installers decision ?

 

[69charged]

When I ordered the door, they asked me how much headroom I had above the door opening. I told them the opening was 7’, and my ceiling was 9’2”. But because it’s a cab over style house, there was a beam running through that was at 7’11”. The lady on the phone said oh in that case you’ll also need a low headroom track kit. I wasn’t arguing about it, but stated that my current door did not have any special kit on it. At the time I had no idea what a low headroom track was. That was last July. She said it was going to take 6 months for the door to come in, so I kinda forgot about the whole thing. So that’s kinda how it played out. I will say that I wish now I would have installed the door myself and forgo the install warranty.
clarence
i should also add that the door is 18x7. since that was asked earlier

 

[69charged]

Dave, you are correct that the rails will almost be horizontal. That is the way my last door was. I had wanted to put a jack shaft operator on that one as well until we decided to change the style. I found out researching online that it might not work, but that you could install the door track compression springs at the end of the track to help keep tension on the sensors, and help start the door on its way down. So that was what I had originally planned. Hopefully that would work.

 

[69charged]

John, looking on liftmasters site, I don’t see an 8550, but I see an 84501 belt drive opener. Does anyone know if a chain drive or belt drive opener is better for the size of my door? I guess weight is a non issue when you can adjust your springs as needed?
Clarence

 

[Sumboodie]

I've learned over the years to never trust an unknown contractor without being there to check in. There are only a very few people I know that whether I'm overseeing or not that the work will be done right.

 

[dave*99]

Dave, you are correct that the rails will almost be horizontal. That is the way my last door was. I had wanted to put a jack shaft operator on that one as well until we decided to change the style. I found out researching online that it might not work, but that you could install the door track compression springs at the end of the track to help keep tension on the sensors, and help start the door on its way down. So that was what I had originally planned. Hopefully that would work.

Perhaps the long compression spring might work but may I ask why you want a jackshaft opener on this door? I use them on my lift bay and high lift doors because the trolley type would get in the way of things. In my low ceiling bay, the trolley unit doesn't interfere with anything.

 

[vrinner]

Here is the Liftmaster on my door. Granted that I have a higher ceiling but from the looks of the sample picture you provided there may not be enough room?

 

[firebirdparts]

Not sure how a jackshaft opener does as far as making sure the top of the door seals. I know my trolley type pushes the door up against the top seal. I have normal tracks on mine.

It’s gonna be bad. The trolley advice was very good advice in this situation. But of course you can make it work another way.

 

[69charged]

Dave, the reasons I have are because they are a cleaner install, and because my bedroom is right above there, they are quieter. Ever since I moved into the house I have wanted to get rid of that trolley opener. It’s was an eyesore to me. But, if I get a trolley style this time, it’s sounding like a new one will be way quieter than previous. Still won’t look as good.

 

[niget2002]

Dave, the reasons I have are because they are a cleaner install, and because my bedroom is right above there, they are quieter. Ever since I moved into the house I have wanted to get rid of that trolley opener. It’s was an eyesore to me. But, if I get a trolley style this time, it’s sounding like a new one will be way quieter than previous. Still won’t look as good.

our trolley is a belt driven. The only sound you hear is the door riding up and down the tracks.

 

[dave*99]

our trolley is a belt driven. The only sound you hear is the door riding up and down the tracks.

Those are much quieter than the chain drive units.

 

[dave*99]

Here is the Liftmaster on my door. Granted that I have a higher ceiling but from the looks of the sample picture you provided there may not be enough room?

A jackshaft opener does not protrude above the cable drum. So it would fit. Your track arrangement is much different than the OP's.

 

[vrinner]

A jackshaft opener does not protrude above the cable drum. So it would fit. Your track arrangement is much different than the OP's.

OK...I just saw Liftmaster, didn't even know what my kind is called. LOL.

 

[69charged]

Firebird, what do you mean it can work another way?

 

[Wrench97]

Jackshaft openers on low head room doors are problematic because they need the door to fall on it's own to keep the cables tight.
If the door ***** and hangs for a split second the opener unwinds the cables flipping them off the spools.
Push springs at the top do help but again only if the door gets a smooth even start generally the track being slanted helps a great deal.
Screw/chain/belt driven openers also have the ability to push the top of the door into the seal and hold it tight which prevents gaps and wind rattling of the door.

 

[58Yeoman]

A couple or three years ago, we had a local company (not one of those buy one window, get one free places) install an entire front door on the house, and two single doors on the garage with torsion springs. Two guys worked at the same time, and did excellent work. The garage doors are insulated Clopay with windows, and he replaced the doors and tracks plus the outside seal. He also told me that one of the GDO's was going to die soon, so I may want to replace that one. Just over $4000 for it all. I did replace the bad opener with a chain drive, and later changed the other one with a belt drive. I have to listen to the belt drive side as it's so quiet. They are both Chamberlains bought from Menards.