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New garage slab- tie into walls?

jav

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Mar 5, 2010
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108
Location
Massachusetts
I'm building a new 42x25 garage in MA. I'm not sure if I should tie the poured slab into the walls or use tie breaks and allow the slab to float interdependently of the walls?

Also- I'm considering no wire mesh or rebar (some say this is becoming more common as long as the sub base is good material and really well compacted. Mesh often ends up too deep in pour and rebar can be pain during placing.

Opinions?

BTW- foundation will be solid filled CMU on 24x8 continuous footings (48" deep).

Slab will be 5" - 3Kpsi concrete (2 post lift in one stall)- power troweled - hobby but working garage - eventually heated but not to start.
 
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ddawg16

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S. California
Why not pour it all at once?

Personally, I'd want it tied together...at least use dowel rods.

As for no rebar? Fiber was the big thing for awhile....that seems to have lost popularity.

But I can't imagine pouring a slab that big and not using rebar. The additional cost is minimal. Or, look at it this way....how can it hurt? You can't add it later.
 

joes169

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Sep 19, 2011
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WI
If you're having the foundation wall done in 8" block, why not revert to 6" wide block for the top course, leaving a 2" floor ledge on the interior? This is the tried & true approach here in this region for 50+ years.

As for re-enforcement, there's no replacement for steel, other than possibly macro-fibers, which are entirely different that micro-fibers that have been around for decades, and don't work to replace steel........
 
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jav

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Mar 5, 2010
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Massachusetts
Thanks for the replies. The foundation is 8" block except the last 2 courses are 6" block. The ledge will support the floor perimeter but I'm trying to decide if I want to leave rebar pins protruding at the ledge for the slab to lock into or... if it would be better to use a bond break allowing the floor and walls to react independently?

As to the steel in the slab- my understanding is the steels only function is limit separation/movement if/when the slab cracks. I've spoken to some guys that tell me fibers, mesh and bar fall in and out of favor and if the sub-base is good, they can be more of a pain then a help. It's not so much the cost of the steel but how the steel will effect the overall quality versus cost of the slab.

Mesh, even on chairs, can get forced down into the pour where it offers little benefit and rebar can be a pain during the pour as a trip hazard. If I do anything it will likely be bar on 18 centers but given that I'm demoing my current slab (which is in amazingly good shape with no bar- AND I was told that if it had bar- it would cost me double to dispose of it... I'm wondering if I need it at all?
 

SiGmA_X

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Aug 13, 2005
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Portland, OR
I've never heard of a concrete contractor saying having the bar in there creates a trip hazard. Maybe check for another opinion. My engineer always says to use bar but he's old. His slabs are also crack free after decades.
 

ssdave

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I absolutely would not tie the slab into the foundation. The loading on each and the support under them is different, and it is quite plausible that differential settlement will occur between the structure and the floor slab. I have been the expert called in on numerous settlement of structure/floor problems, and the ones where the floor and foundations are tied together, either through a ledge or through pinning are much more difficult and complex to correct. I have seen several projects where a differential settlement of a pinned floor/foundation caused cracking or spalling in the foundation, requiring a difficult/expensive repair of the foundation, where otherwise there would be an easy/less expensive replacement of only the floor slab, or would have been no damage to either if they weren't pinned together. Now, I specify a 30 weight asphalt felt strip be placed at the junction, to insure that they act independently.

I have seen several floor settlement cases, where they were not pinned to the wall. In those cases, there was no associated wall damage, and the repair was an easy (but of course expensive) slab replacement and subgrade remediation.

On the rebar/mesh/fiber issue, it is more or less a personal choice and what your chosen contractor wants/will do. I have no doubt after many years of professional engineering evaluation/design/inspection experience of concrete structures that reinforcement is a positive thing. It's like seat belts, everybody can cite an instance where someone got hurt or burned up or entrapped by a seatbelt; yet the hard, scientific evidence is that wearing a seatbelt is a good thing. There is really no doubt that reinfocement in concrete improves its strength and performance overall. Yes, it has to be installed correctly. Yes, you can find obscure/rare instances where it caused a problem. Overall, you're best off including it, as there is a positive benefit. However, it comes at an increased cost. The argument can be that it isn't worth the increased cost, because your application is so low performance that a failure due to no rebar isn't of any significance, or is improbable. Yes, good subgrade preparation and subsoil conditions make settling of a slab less probable. However, it's extremely difficult to accurately predict whether you have good subgrade and subsoil conditions. Proving that with any certainty costs way more than including rebar for homeowner type projects. In critical, expensive applications, evaluation of the subgrade and subsoil conditions is performed. But, rebar, carefully designed, is also included.

You pay your money and take your chances. Slightly easier placement of the slab, a bit lower cost, balanced against the slight risk of displacement at cracks. Neither way is absolutely right or wrong, it's just a balancing of risk versus cost.
 
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jav

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Mar 5, 2010
Messages
108
Location
Massachusetts
ssdave-

Thank you!!! That's exactly the information I was hoping for! So bond break the slab at the walls/ledge. I was planning on using 1/4" flexcell (asphault coated expansion joint fiberboard) at the ledge(horizontally) and on the CMU wall (vertically). Thoughts?

I hear you on the reinforcement. I'll likely go with a rebar grid (18" oc) on chairs (set mid slab) to avoid push down during placement. I'll need to work out logistics as I wasn't planning on a pumper but a rebar grid precludes wheelbarrow placement and the garage is 42' deep X 25' wide and only accessible from the front and 20' up 1 side so placement will definitly be harder.
 

venturesomerite

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Nov 3, 2011
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Connecticut - not sure why though...
I am no builder, nor do I do engineering or concrete work.

That said, logically, I would want the slab separate in the instance that it should settle and crack, it can be replaced separately and less expensively. Other than that point, I defer to those with experience.
 

Radix2

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May 28, 2014
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the thumb!, MI
I am no builder, nor do I do engineering or concrete work.

That said, logically, I would want the slab separate in the instance that it should settle and crack, it can be replaced separately and less expensively. Other than that point, I defer to those with experience.

Concrete is not going to adhere to block walls in any case - you can always break it up and remove it - pins, ledges or what have you.

Focusing on ease of repair is misguided. Focus on proper compaction and drainage and there will not be any issue. I would guess the vast majority of slabs inside foundations are mechanically pinned by various features without issue.
 

venturesomerite

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Connecticut - not sure why though...
Concrete is not going to adhere to block walls in any case - you can always break it up and remove it - pins, ledges or what have you.

Focusing on ease of repair is misguided. Focus on proper compaction and drainage and there will not be any issue. I would guess the vast majority of slabs inside foundations are mechanically pinned by various features without issue.

I meant that it was mentioned to pour into the open top of the walls. Up against it won't have any problem coming apart.


But yes, proper compaction and draining is paramount, but **** does happen.
 

slip knot

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Mar 22, 2010
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Texas gulf coast
My slab has lots of tiny little cracks in it. and thats all it has because I spec'd lots of steel. Dont cheap out on the slab.
 
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