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New Garage subpanel questions

WiLdwOrLdOfWiLl

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I just built a new house and had the electrician put in a 100 amp subpanel in the detached garage. He ran 4 wires into the box two hots and a neutral and ground. The neutral and ground are both on the (edit)neutral bar with a green arm that is connected to the bar and box (bonded?). There is no ground bar and no ground rod at the garage. Does this sound right? How do I wire the breakers? Both nuetral and ground to the same bar?

Thanks ahead of time

I edited this to give a better idea of the situation
 
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Aceman

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It's not right. Did you have electrical inspections when the house was wired? What about the garage?

Along with what Stuart said, you need a grounding electrode at the garage if you don't have one. Ground rods or a ufer ground are the most common.
 

pattenp

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You need two grounds rods at the garage, 6 feet apart from each other. Sub panel needs an insulated neutral bar and a ground bar bonded to the panel. All ground wires (bare or green) go to the ground bar and all neutrals(white) go to the neutral bar. The panel should have a neutral/ground bar and no separate ground bar. You need to remove the bonding screw from the existing neutral/ground bar and add a separate ground bar. The separate ground bar is the one you usually have to add to make the neutral and ground isolated.
 
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pattenp

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You've got me curious since you say an electrician did this. I'm assuming your feed to the sub-panel comes from your main breaker panel. What size wire was used for feeding the sub-panel and what size breaker in the main breaker panel is protecting the sub feed?
 
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WiLdwOrLdOfWiLl

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The house was fully inspected but I dont think the garage was. They had to come back to finish after the inspection.

I will take a pic and post it to show what I got. I added circuits in my last garage and figured if they put in a panel I could wire the rest.

It may be a neutral bar in the panel with the neutral and ground connected to it with the bonding lug attached. Does this sound more logical?
 

pattenp

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Go back and reread my post #4, I added more detail about the neutral bar.

It may be a neutral bar in the panel with the neutral and ground connected to it with the bonding lug attached. Does this sound more logical?
 
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WiLdwOrLdOfWiLl

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OK here is the panel. It is a neutral buss. The thing that has got me is the ground is connected to it and its bonded? to the panel.

panel.jpg
 

ishiboo

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OK here is the panel. It is a neutral buss. The thing that has got me is the ground is connected to it and its bonded? to the panel.

NO idea why they did that, normally it's one because there were only 3 wires. You have all 4, so all you have to do is add a ground bus bar (<$10), move the green wire to it, and remove the bonding strap secured by the green screw.

It's definitely wrong.
 

cleason

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if u run 4 wires to garage u don't need any more grounding. the ground wire must not be on the neutral bar.the neutral bar can,t be connected to the panel re the green screw.
 

pattenp

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Do exactly as I and ishiboo have stated. Remove the bonding of the neutral bar to the box and add a new ground bar and move the green ground wire to the new ground bar. You also need to add the two 8' ground rods and connect them to the new ground bar with a least a #10 bare copper wire. Usually HD or Lowes will sell you #6 bare copper for ground.

You should call the electrician back and ask them to do it right.
 

pattenp

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The more grounding is needed because this is a detached garage. If it was attached, then no more grounding would be required. Go figure.

if u run 4 wires to garage u don't need any more grounding. the ground wire must not be on the neutral bar.the neutral bar can,t be connected to the panel re the green screw.
 
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Charles (in GA)

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That is a GE panel. See all those small holes in the back? They are designed to mount different length ground bars and other things.

Go to Home Depot or Lowes, and find a nice long GE ground bar on the accessories rack they have above the circuit breakers. Mount the bar using the holes, probably on the right side. Move the green ground wire over to it. Remove the green screw and the offset/joggled bonding strap it holds down, and throw it in the junk box. When done, move your green ground wire over to the ground bar.

Get two 8 ft ground rods while you are at the big box store and two approved connectors for them and enough #6 solid copper bare, to run from your ground bar to one ground rod and then to the other, without cutting or interrupting the bare copper wire, it must be continuous, and uncut. You can use smaller than #6 but you will have to protect it with conduit or other protection, while #6, being overkill, is allowed to be exposed, If I recall correctly.

Get a sheet of plywood and stand it up against the outside of the building where you are going to install the ground rods next to the foundation, and take a large sledge hammer and drive them in one at a time. The plywood is to protect the building's exterior while you drive the rod. It will go easy for a while and then get hard to drive, depending on the soil. Might want to slip the approved connector clamps over the rod before you start and wrap them in tape to make them stay put (tightening the set screw probably won't hold with all the pounding) as the rod will mushroom and the clamp won't go over it after you drive it in.

Charles
 
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WiLdwOrLdOfWiLl

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Thanks for all the help. Sounds like a fix that I can handle. I was feeling pretty lost on the electrical side and you guys helped me out. Thanks for the direction.
 

Steevo

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Doesn't this panel, in a detached garage, also need to be fed via a breaker within the panel?
The way is is now, it is directly wired to the lugs, with no "main breaker" for the panel, not even via a back-fed breaker. I know I was told I needed to use either a main breaker panel, or use a back-fed breaker to feed a main lug panel.
 

pattenp

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Good catch Steevo. Wild, if you don't have a main disconnect for that panel at the garage you can not put more than 6 breakers in the panel. You can always use a 2pole breaker that is back-fed to serve as the disconnect.

You really need to smack the electrician that installed that panel.
 
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ishiboo

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Doesn't this panel, in a detached garage, also need to be fed via a breaker within the panel?
The way is is now, it is directly wired to the lugs, with no "main breaker" for the panel, not even via a back-fed breaker. I know I was told I needed to use either a main breaker panel, or use a back-fed breaker to feed a main lug panel.

Yes, but there are only 6 breaker positions in the box, so as long as no more than 6 handles are present things are fine. This means that if you had one dual-pole breaker taking 2 spaces, you could have one tandem. :)
 

ishiboo

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I believe that is a 12 space box.

I'm no very familiar (AT ALL) with GE panels, but it appears to be a 6 space. There are 6 bus stabs from what I can see.

The question would be - how many circuits. The QO/Homeline 6-space is rated for 12 circuits.
 

ishiboo

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Maybe i'm wrong, seems to be there are 1" spaces and 1/2" spaces in GE-land, not sure if two 1/2" breakers go on the same phase instead of tandems. In Square D world that would be a 6-space 12-circuit panel :D

Who the hell buys GE anyway? :)
 

pattenp

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WiLdwOrLdOfWiLl, what is that panel size? ishiboo and I are having a gentleman's disagreement.

Plus, what's the meaning of your user name?
 

Norcal

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The panel is not a GE, Government Electric, it'a a Cutler- Hammer BR (**** panel,BTW).

Whoever installed it is a trunkslammer.:(
 

Norcal

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Then a BR would have a breaker stabbed on each side, so it would be a 12-space? :)


That panel accepts full size breakers only, as the buss stabs are not notched which is odd for such a small loadcenter.
 
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