New heat pump (home) woes

[1redTA]

After many years of faithfull service the 1995 Janitrol heat pump failed. In Sept of 2018, I had a 3ton 16 seer Amana two stage heat pump installed. Everything was great till the temp went to 48 and the system shut down the heat pump two stages were shut off and was running aux heat. I called the installer for a service call and was told that the thermostat wasn’t “set right” and in the future to reset the inside/outside fuses to reset the system as a fix for future reoccurring aux heat issue.

I have been told that the unit will shut down the pumps if a high pressure situation exists and if during the installation Freon was added using Kentucky windage. The system is supposed to be filled usinga temp/humidity/ enthalpy chart or the unit will continue to shut down to protect itself. I was not home to speak with the tech, but my wife relayed his thermostat/fuse rest fix to me. I’m waiting for the heat pump to shut down again and the tech try his “fix” on me versus my wife. Any advice his appreciated, I just wanted to vent at the rediculousness of the situation

 

[RAM2940]

Is the new system setup as a dual fuel system. If so that would explain the heat pump cutting off and the aux heat coning on. If this is the case, you need to lower the changeover temp in the thermostat. Or there could be a setting wrong causing it to run as duel fuel instead of just being on second stage heat.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

There is a lot of other info missing here. The old system is probably R22. Is the new system R10A? Was the entire system repiped? If the new unit is 410A, it should have been precharged, and unless the outdoor unit was a long way from the indoor coil, there may not have been a need to add any refrigerant.

Tommy

 

[1redTA]

everything was replaced, the outdoor and indoor units are approximately 25 feet apart
electric only

 

[LS6 Tommy]

everything was replaced, the outdoor and indoor units are approximately 25 feet apart
electric only

Depending on the unit specs, it probably didn't need to have any refrigerant added.

Tommy

 

[1redTA]

cool, but I’m not happy with the situation. Buy a new heat pump and reset the breakers if the heat doesn’t work

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Yeah that isn't right. Either something in the thermostat isn't programmed right or something is causing the condensing unit to lock out, which sometimes requires cycling the power to reset.

Tommy

 

[u3b3rg33k]

From the sound of things your system was likely not commissioned at all.

what you're describing sounds like on call for heat the defrost board has locked out and is sending back a "W" signal to run the strips.

if it is in fact shutting down on high pressure when it's warm out, the first thing I would do would be the easy stuff that doesn't involve opening the refrigeration system.

1. make sure you don't have any room registers closed
2. make sure you don't have any blocked returns, including furniture up against them
3. make sure the filter is clean and not plugged up - if you're using 1" allergen filters, you're likely not getting enough flow.
3.5. go ahead and verify your thermostat didn't default to default gas mode (not sure how that would happen but hey, whatever)
4. make sure the indoor coil is clean

once those are done, you can dig a bit deeper:
5. make sure the blower is set to provide adequate airflow, and not just at the defaults
6. is it tripping in both stages? just high stage?
7. make sure the defrost board isn't faulty
8. have someone check the pressures while operating
9. evacuate the system and weigh in the proper charge.

 

[Jim greengo]

After many years of faithfull service the 1995 Janitrol heat pump failed. In Sept of 2018, I had a 3ton 16 seer Amana two stage heat pump installed. Everything was great till the temp went to 48 and the system shut down the heat pump two stages were shut off and was running aux heat. I called the installer for a service call and was told that the thermostat wasn’t “set right” and in the future to reset the inside/outside fuses to reset the system as a fix for future reoccurring aux heat issue.

I have been told that the unit will shut down the pumps if a high pressure situation exists and if during the installation Freon was added using Kentucky windage. The system is supposed to be filled usinga temp/humidity/ enthalpy chart or the unit will continue to shut down to protect itself. I was not home to speak with the tech, but my wife relayed his thermostat/fuse rest fix to me. I’m waiting for the heat pump to shut down again and the tech try his “fix” on me versus my wife. Any advice his appreciated, I just wanted to vent at the rediculousness of the situation

I'd tell the installer I'm not resetting anything,come on over and fix it.

 

[Notgrownup]

Yep, I’d tell them to come fix it right...you shouldn’t have to go through this ****.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

oh yeah installed late 2018? installer should be on the hook for that working properly...

 

[danski0224]

After many years of faithfull service the 1995 Janitrol heat pump failed. In Sept of 2018, I had a 3ton 16 seer Amana two stage heat pump installed. Everything was great till the temp went to 48 and the system shut down the heat pump two stages were shut off and was running aux heat. I called the installer for a service call and was told that the thermostat wasn’t “set right” and in the future to reset the inside/outside fuses to reset the system as a fix for future reoccurring aux heat issue.

I have been told that the unit will shut down the pumps if a high pressure situation exists and if during the installation Freon was added using Kentucky windage. The system is supposed to be filled usinga temp/humidity/ enthalpy chart or the unit will continue to shut down to protect itself. I was not home to speak with the tech, but my wife relayed his thermostat/fuse rest fix to me. I’m waiting for the heat pump to shut down again and the tech try his “fix” on me versus my wife. Any advice his appreciated, I just wanted to vent at the rediculousness of the situation

Most residential HVAC systems I see are not installed or set up properly.

Is all of your equipment "matched"? Do you have an AHRI number?

Charging instructions are in the I/O manual and printed on the inside of the condenser access panel. All you have to do is understand what you are reading, buy the tools, and check it. Or, find someone else that has all of that already. It probably needs to be checked in cooling mode in second stage, and it is probably too cold to do that now- at least properly without resorting to plastic bags.

I have a heat pump, and could not get the charge right until it was warm enough to do it properly in cooling mode without cheater methods and running in second stage. My thermostat has an equipment test section and I can engage second stage and leave it there.

You need to figure your equipment balance point and economic balance point. They may not be the same. The economic balance point should be figured whenever your electric rates change. This will tell you where to set your changeover temperature. Your installer should have done this. You will need some specific manufacturer performance data at 47*F- which is in the spec sheets.

Just guessing and moving the changeover temperature down to a random value isn't the best approach.

It is also possible and likely that the equipment settings, thermostat and/or wiring is configured wrong. Again, read the manual- if only to educate yourself.

It is doubtful that the equipment is actually hitting the high pressure switch cutout, and if it is, this automatically resets on residential equipment (and you have bigger problems).

 

[1redTA]

Danski, I bought a package and paid to have it installed, I understand what/why you are saying this.... but the installer should have set things up right and resetting breakers is bull. The reason I purchased a package is so I could go to work and not have to worry about the heat pump not running

 

[danski0224]

Danski, I bought a package and paid to have it installed, I understand what/why you are saying this.... but the installer should have set things up right and resetting breakers is bull. The reason I purchased a package is so I could go to work and not have to worry about the heat pump not running

I understand that, however, knowledge is power. I serviced a high end Lemmonox 2 stage system that was not set up properly- the customer never had 2 stage operation. All I did was RTFM.

Obviously, the installer DID NOT set it up right. The assumption is that he/she didn't know how to, but the fact is that residential HVAC shops are almost all "performance based pay", so corners are cut.

Companies do not want to invest in their employees by providing paid training.

Employees do not want to take the time to read the I/O manual because it cuts into their performance based pay.

I could add a whole lot more to this list.

It would be less aggravation on your part to review the set-up particulars and maybe catch an error. Yes, some of it may be technical. Don't change anything tough, then make the call.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Companies do not want to invest in their employees by providing paid training.

Employees do not want to take the time to read the I/O manual because it cuts into their performance based pay.

Maybe in your area, but in NJ, you couldn't be farther from the truth.

Any decent company has techs that are manufacturer certified by the brands they sell, NATE, ASHRAE, HVAC Excellence or some other recognized organization and that certification must be updated at least annually, sometimes more frequently. The better companies have in house update training as the technology changes.

"Performance based pay"? Again, decent companies don't go by flat rate.

Tommy

 

[toplessHO]

you did get a standard 1 yr parts labor on equipment and install didnt you?
Its all on the installer,that service call should have fixed it all.

 

[danski0224]

Maybe in your area, but in NJ, you couldn't be farther from the truth.

Any decent company has techs that are manufacturer certified by the brands they sell, NATE, ASHRAE, HVAC Excellence or some other recognized organization and that certification must be updated at least annually, sometimes more frequently. The better companies have in house update training as the technology changes.

"Performance based pay"? Again, decent companies don't go by flat rate.

Tommy

Yeah, companies claim those things here, too. The quality of the work I see indicates that some training isn't necessarily being followed...

Performance based pay is not flat rate. Piecework. Pay is so much per item or add on... $*** for the installation of a furnace. That's how Sears does it, and probably many other shops that send so-called independent contractors to a job.

Other outfits have spiffs or commissions on the job ticket. There is your performance based pay.

Flat rate is what the customer sees- a specific amount for a given task... $***.00 for a flame sensor service call, for example. Many companies use this for billing the customer.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Yeah, companies claim those things here, too. The quality of the work I see indicates that some training isn't necessarily being followed...

Performance based pay is not flat rate. Piecework. Pay is so much per item or add on... $*** for the installation of a furnace. That's how Sears does it, and probably many other shops that send so-called independent contractors to a job.

Other outfits have spiffs or commissions on the job ticket. There is your performance based pay.

Flat rate is what the customer sees- a specific amount for a given task... $***.00 for a flame sensor service call, for example. Many companies use this for billing the customer.

Not every tech is going to be great and there are a lot of companies that look great , but aren't. I won't argue with that. Some get training, but don't really learn.

"Piecework" is flat rate. $**.** for XXXXXX repair/installation.

I can appreciate what you're saying about commissions.

Sears and a lot of the independent contractors you refer to are not "decent" companies. At least not around here. They get the dregs of the industry and/or kids right out of tech school.

Tommy

 

[Falcon67]

Yeah that isn't right. Either something in the thermostat isn't programmed right or something is causing the condensing unit to lock out, which sometimes requires cycling the power to reset.

Tommy

We had this with the new Ruud heat pump. The system didn't act "quite right" with our existing Filtrete t-stat and had to reset breakers a couple of times, so I bought a newer Honeywell. That one worked OK but lost the wifi after the warranty period and was generally not much fun to work with. Changed that to an Ecobee 3 and all good. We are single fuel (electric only) and I have the aux heat delta set for like 6 degrees to keep it off unless there is real trouble. We do a 3 degree setback at night, which would trigger the default aux heat delta setting. Wife hates the smell of the aux heat strip. Yes, she can tell when it's on.

Short version - your older t-stat could be causing issues.

 

[bonneyman]

I'd tell the installer I'm not resetting anything,come on over and fix it.

A 16 SEER system probably cost you a pretty penny (or two!) so they should be getting their butts out there to get you running right. Not just friendly advice over the phone.

 

[1redTA]

It did it again, outside unit wasn’t running but the thermostat( came with system) showed stages 1 & 2 running but the heat strip was off this time. Inside unit was just blowing air around. Company is going to send a diff tech this time

 

[Notgrownup]

Good idea, different set of eyes on it might make a difference. I had the same issue with a Rinnai installation, same tech kept coming out, finally they sent another guy out on Thanksgiving morning and he noticed right away my gas line coming in wasn't big enough... Fixed right the 4th time.

 

[1redTA]

new tech cam out and discovered the dip switches weren’t set correctly, the fan wasn’t set to remove enough heat causing the unit to shut down

 

[u3b3rg33k]

#5 on my list

i bet the installer left them at factory defaults, or didn't check flow/pressures.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

How many people have bought air to air heat pumps, had them improperly configured, and just "lived with it".

 

[danski0224]

Lots...

 

[Notgrownup]

Good news that they finally figured it out.