New hot water heater woes.

[balane]

I'm at wits end here. Our hot water heater was 12 years old and on its last leg. This morning we had no hot water so I went and bought a new one. Installation was simple and uneventful. It's a 50 gallon tank.

Before connecting electrical I ran water through the tank, with all the hot valves opened up inside the house, for 3 minutes. Pressure is very good.

I know the power lines are connected properly. I tested voltage at both contacts on the upper element and each to ground is getting 122v. The resistance across the element is 15 ohms so I know it's not burnt.

But still, after 2+ hours of sitting the water is ice cold. I opened the pressure valve for a moment and the water is cold coming out of it. The water output line is also cold. I do have the inlet and outlet hoses correctly installed.

Any suggestions here? Thanks.

 

[pattenp]

What brand and model is the water heater? Have you checked to see if there are any reset buttons that need resetting.

 

[balane]

Yes, there is a reset button on the upper thermostat, I pressed it and it didn't click or make any type of tactile response so I don't believe it was tripped.

The brand is Whirlpool and the model is E1F50RD045V

Thanks.

 

[Milton Shaw]

Do you have 240 volts between the terminals. Sounds like you have a breaker half tripped so that you only have 120 volts (115) which does not complete the circuit to let the elements heat. May have been a bad breaker all the time and not a bad water heater in the first place.

 

[truckman5000]

Do you have 240 volts between the terminals. Sounds like you have a breaker half tripped so that you only have 120 volts (115) which does not complete the circuit to let the elements heat. May have been a bad breaker all the time and not a bad water heater in the first place.

Yah or a fused disconnect with only one bad fuse

 

[balane]

OK, I put my meter across both of the leads on the element and it read 0 volts. What does that mean? Do I need to replace the circuit breaker?

 

[balane]

Also, I don't mind replacing the water heater. Ours was very old and full of crud.

 

[pattenp]

It means it's wired wrong. You should get 230V across the two hots. Did you mess with the breaker in the panel?

OK, I put my meter across both of the leads on the element and it read 0 volts. What does that mean? Do I need to replace the circuit breaker?

 

[balane]

So I should flip the wires going to the hot water heater? I reconnected them to the same colors they came from on the original heater.

From the wall, black went to red on the heater. White went to black on the heater.

I was careful to connect them the same way. Both the old and replacement hot water heater had the same color wires on it. The old one worked fine all this time.

Is it safe to switch the wires to test?

Edit: I never did anything to the circuit breaker at any time other than flipping it off to connect the new heater originally.

 

[pattenp]

Switching the wires will make no difference. Check the voltage across the black and white from the wall to verify that you have 230V.

 

[balane]

I just checked the wires coming from the wall with my meter and they read only 50V across them. What does that mean?

 

[pattenp]

You have a open breaker or bad breaker. Push the breaker handle to open then try pushing to close to see if the breaker will reset. Then check voltage again. I assume you are using a digital meter so you are getting phantom voltage.

 

[balane]

50V at the wall no matter what I do. What seems odd to me is that I read 122V at the heating element. I have no idea how that would happen.

It seems clear that the first step would be to purchase a new breaker. Do you concur with that? If so I'll run and pick up one.

If a new breaker doesn't help then I'll break down and call an electrician.

 

[pattenp]

It sounds like a bad breaker. Do you feel comfortable checking the voltage across the breaker terminals where the wire connects?

We are talking about a breaker that looks similar to this, right?

 

[justsam]

Measure voltage at the breaker. BE CAREFUL!
You should see 240 VAC with your probes at each of the two breaker terminals.
Also check from ground or neutral at the breaker box to each of your breaker terminals feeding the water heater. You should see 120VAC

 

[balane]

This is my circuit box. The breaker in question is 2nd from the top, it's currently flipped off.

 

[pattenp]

Switch the breaker to ON and check the voltage at the two terminals where the white and black wires connect. You should get 240 volts +-.

 

[balane]

I'm getting just 50v at the output of the circuit breaker, across both contacts. Bad then, right?

How do I remove the wires with those red tabs? I'm used to seeing screws to release the wires.

 

[dogdog]

maybe you just hook it up incorrectly ?
I would do what others recommended use caution and check voltage of both hot with the lines unhooked at the water heater. if you have 240ish then you are good and you might have just hooked up the thing incorrectly or something grounded tripped.

page 19 of your manual.

http://www.whirlpoolwaterheaters.com/owner-center/product-manuals/manuals/323099.pdf

 

[balane]

We've done testing. Only 50V at the breaker and also out of the wall to the hot water heater. It's just not getting the needed voltage to work.

 

[pattenp]

I'm not familiar with that panel and style breaker. The breaker may need to be pulled out to connect and disconnect wires. You need to cut the power to the panel before trying to remove any wires or the breaker. Have you tested your meter on another double breaker to see if you get 240V?

 

[jhelrey]

Your neutral looks like it's coming out...

 

[balane]

The neutral is sticking out pretty far but it's in there really firmly. I honestly can't figure out how to remove these breakers or disconnect the wire. What a pain in the ***.

 

[balane]

240 at the breaker for the range and the dryer.

I just wish I could remove the breaker in question but it doesn't freaking budge.

 

[pattenp]

Hopefully one of the other electrical guys who follow these post will know how to get the breaker out. It definitely seems you have a bad breaker. Not to question your ability, but when you turn on that breaker is it locking/clicking when you push it to the ON position? Some breakers require you to push fully to the OFF position then back to ON to reset the breaker.

 

[balane]

Yes, the breaker clicks into place as the others do.

The flat bar holding the breakers in place has non-removable slotted screws holding it in place. You try to loosen them and the screwdriver cams right out. Wow, this is some frustrating BS here.

 

[acmikee]

check the voltage on the two wires above should be 240v.
what does that breaker serve, if its not important switch the wires (with power off).
the breakers look like a zinco breaker they're $$$$.
kill power to the panel and pull/pry the breaker out and replace.

 

[pattenp]

Looks like the breakers push straight in using friction connectors to fasten to the two bars.

 

[pattenp]

Yep.. looks like Zinsco, and they aren't cheap. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Zinsco-T...eaker-UBIZ230/100669932?N=5yc1vZ1xqdZbm0kZ50f

 

[balane]

It's a Zinsco and yes, expensive. Just got back with one. There's a retaining bar in the box that holds all the breakers in place. That bar must be removed in order to swap a breaker. One of the most stupid things I've ever seen is that they used one way screws to hold that retaining bar in place. I just can't believe how dumb that is.

I have no idea how I'm going to get these screws out. A regular screwdriver cams right out when turned counter clockwise and there's just no way to get a pair of vise-grips on the screw head. The only option I can think of at this point is to drill them.

 

[jpinca]

Yes, that looks like a Zinco Panel.

Seems like you should call an electrician to replace the panel.

http://www.ismypanelsafe.com/zinsco.aspx

 

[pattenp]

Do you have a Dremel to cut a cross slot in the screw head?

 

[balane]

That's what I'm seeing about the panel being awful, it's on the list. Had to get hot water in the mean time though. I installed the new breaker. There was some open space in the panel as you can see. I was able to push the new breaker into that space until it clicked under the bar. It isn't coming out though but, oh well. I did need to add two extensions to the wires so they reached the new breaker location. Photo attached.

The good news is that now I'm getting 240 across the contacts at the heating element and the water should be heating up now.

Do you guys see any imminent danger looking at what I did here.

 

[MTW]

The bar is slotted and will slide over to release the breakers, don't take a die grinder to it.

Zinsco's are known to be a fire hazard, the bus stabs underneath the breaker could be burned already, causing the breaker to loose its connection and arc.
If you find burning there, its time for a new panel. Don't put the new breaker on a burned bus, you'll be asking for trouble. Zinsco got sued out of existence many years ago, the breakers your buying are aftermarket repops.

You could possibly move the breaker to an undamaged bus stab, as a temporary solution. You would be doing yourself a favor to get rid of the panel at your first convenience.

MTW Ω

 

[Aceman]

Zinsco panels are junk. It's VERY common to find bad breakers or bad buss connections where the breakers loosen up and arc on the buss. It usually wrecks the buss as well as the breaker.

Unfortunately, I can't help you with the hold down bracket, I've been in A LOT of Zinsco panels and I've never seen one with that.

I'd also recommend replacing the panel too.

 

[balane]

You can see above that I did put the new breaker in an open area on the rails. I was able to get it in there but now it's locked under the retaining bar. I half-heartedly tried to slide the retaining bar over but it's in tight and I don't want to put a lot of pressure on it. The power rails are not burnt at all in the area I used. My only concerns are the extensions I'm using and the fact that the old, bad breaker is still in there with no wires connected and in the off position. If you all think that's safe then I'm going to button it up. Voltage at the water heater is now correct.

Edit: I will be having a new box installed as soon as I'm able. Any idea what parts and labor might run me for that job?

 

[MTW]

You'll probably be OK leaving the old breaker in with no load connected. Mark it as bad to prevent reuse later.

Your panel is whats called a split bus. The lower section is separate and fed from the large breaker immediately above it. It's intended for lighting only, power connections are intended for the upper section of buss. If the additional load is too great, the breaker above feeding the bus below, will hopefully trip before it burns it's buss connection.

For the extension wires, make sure that they are as large or larger that the circuit wires, most likely #10 AWG. It looked in the photo that they were one size smaller.

For the replacement you'll likely need more than the inside box replaced. You should probably consider up sizing the whole service, for extra capacity and additional circuits.
Around here services start at $1000 and up depending on the conditions.

MTW Ω

 

[balane]

Thanks for the info. That's kind of a bummer about it being on the lower bus. I'll work some more at getting that retaining bar slid over so I can get this breaker into its proper location.

The wires I used to make the extension came off of the old water heater. The copper looks very much to be the same diameter as the wiring running to the water heater but with thinner plastic shielding. It's been running a while and they're cool to the touch right now. I'll pick up some thicker cable to make better extensions just to be safe then.

 

[Aceman]

Thanks for the info. That's kind of a bummer about it being on the lower bus. I'll work some more at getting that retaining bar slid over so I can get this breaker into its proper location.

The wires I used to make the extension came off of the old water heater. The copper looks very much to be the same diameter as the wiring running to the water heater but with thinner plastic shielding. It's been running a while and they're cool to the touch right now. I'll pick up some thicker cable to make better extensions just to be safe then.

In all the water heaters I've worked on, they've used #12 wire inside them. I wouldn't use this wire to extend the #10 wire required in your panel. Get the right stuff as soon as you can.

 

[MTW]

That pain in the *** retainer, was a half *** measure to try and hold the breakers in tight to prevent them from coming loose and burning up. Didn't work did it? That's why Zinsco is long gone.

Before you go trying to pry the retainer and breaker from the buss, it would be safest if you killed the power to the panel first by removing the meter. It could be really crusty on the buss and require too much force for safety sake.

MTW Ω