New house headaches

[Albiemanmike]

Well we are in the process of moving into our new house that was built in 1850. One of the reasons we chose this house is because it has a 37 X 29 garage with a 33 X 17 second floor. TTha was my only requirement for a new place to live. Unfortunately the previous owner was good at only building when it came to electrical stuff he seems to not have a clue. There are so many ridiculous electrical blunders (nothing unsafe) that I don't know where to begin. I have done plenty of wiring and new circuits in our old house but it was framed conventionally. This home being so old is balloon framed and the house is built out of two layers of brick. It is very nice and in great shape but doing any type of wire running is going to be a serious problem. The garage sshould not be a bug deal as it is new but the main house will definitely be a challenge. If anyone has any good tips for running wires in this kind of situation I am all ears. He did stuff like having no light switch at the bottom of the stairs to go to the second floor??? Same thing in the garage??? Also it looks as though he did not optimize the circuits in the garage as there seems to be far too many circuits for what is there which has taken uplace all the available slots for any new breakers. So I will have to figure out the current wiring scheme before I can do anything. I need to add some 220 volt plugs for some of my Woodworking machines and I have not slots available to do that? Well the journey begins. We are excited about the new house but man do Ihave a lot of work to do should be busy until this time next year and beyond.

At least the garage is heated and has hot and cold running water.

 

[sands35]

House:
Do you have a basement crawl space and attic crawl space? Run a sub panel to the attic for the upstairs. Are the walls plaster over lathe? You will need a metal blade to cut through it. Other than that, not much different than any old work job. Lot's of fishing wires through walls.

Garage:
Clean up redundant circuits with new wire or join them in J boxes outside the panel. There are also split breakers. (two circuits per spot)

 

[2ManyProjects]

Well we are in the process of moving into our new house that was built in 1850.

There are so many ridiculous electrical blunders (nothing unsafe) that I don't know where to begin. I have done plenty of wiring and new circuits in our old house but it was framed conventionally. This home being so old is balloon framed and the house is built out of two layers of brick.

He did stuff like having no light switch at the bottom of the stairs to go to the second floor??? Same thing in the garage??? Also it looks as though he did not optimize the circuits in the garage as there seems to be far too many circuits for what is there which has taken uplace all the available slots for any new breakers. So I will have to figure out the current wiring scheme before I can do anything. I need to add some 220 volt plugs for some of my Woodworking machines and I have not slots available to do that?

I can't help with the issues specific to balloon-framed construction, as I've never had to deal with that. But on a more general note: I realize that you have presumably just dropped a large-ish chunk of change to buy the property. And therefore, this might not seem like the best time to spend any more money than "necessary". But OTOH, given all the issues you've mentioned (and, I'm sure, many more that you mercifully skipped), this might indeed be the very best time to rip EVERYTHING out, and start over from scratch.

The first question I'd ask is, what exactly is the main electrical service to the house, exactly where is it installed, and how long ago was it installed?

The same question applies to the garage, which I gather is somewhat (how much?) newer. But your mention of "too many circuits" being allocated to that area implies that this is NOT a main-panel/sub-panel arrangement. Is the garage attached or detached? If the former, the all-in-one arrangement is "legal"; but it's probably far from ideal, regardless.

Well the journey begins. We are excited about the new house but man do Ihave a lot of work to do should be busy until this time next year and beyond.

Would it be cruel of me to suggest some off-hours viewing?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091541/

At least the garage is heated and has hot and cold running water.

Where is that heat and hot water sourced? Does the garage have its own system(s), or is it leeched off the house's main systems? The former will likely make it much easier to control operating costs.

 

[ddawg16]

Take a step back....look at the big picture....if you think you need to do an upgrade on the main load center...plan it all out at once...then do it a bit at a time.

What does your main load center look like?

Also be aware that if you start doing changes...a permit would be a wise choice...but a few things will impact you...

GFCI protection is required now for ALL ckts in a garage.

Depending on your local NEC cycle, you will most likely need AFCI's in all the bedrooms...and maybe all other rooms. Your going to hear two different opinions on AFCI's...so far I've had 0 issues.

Your kitchen will need more ckts....

With that said....that is not all bad...kitchens never have enough power/outlets....and nothing wrong with being safe.

 

[Albiemanmike]

The panel in the garage is a 200 amp panel and it is fairly new within the last 10 years I would guess. I am not going to rip it all apart and start over I think I just need to makes sense of what was done and then modify it to make it more normal. When I say there are too many circuits what I am trying to say is that for example he may only have 2 outlets taking up on breaker slot when I am sure you could have more than 2 15 amp outlets on a single leg/branch. This takes up a slot in the panel that could be utilized for something else as very rarely if ever will every outlet be in use. I do agree that the easiest way to clean up the garage wiring would be to rip out all of the drywall and then see how the branch circuits were run then redesign per code and optimize/maximize available power. I am not going to rip out all of the drywall at this point as that would cost me money I don't have right now but maybe in the spring time. Thanks for the replies they're much appreciated.

 

[2ManyProjects]

The panel in the garage is a 200 amp panel and it is fairly new within the last 10 years I would guess. I am not going to rip it all apart and start over I think I just need to makes sense of what was done and then modify it to make it more normal.

If the garage electrical installation is only ~10 years old, then I agree: There is (or at least "should be") no need to rip it out and start over. I'd gotten the impression from your initial post that the wiring in both the house and the garage was MUCH older than this; and my suggestion to consider starting over was primarily with respect to the house itself, as opposed to the garage in particular.

When I say there are too many circuits what I am trying to say is that for example he may only have 2 outlets taking up on breaker slot when I am sure you could have more than 2 15 amp outlets on a single leg/branch. This takes up a slot in the panel that could be utilized for something else as very rarely if ever will every outlet be in use.

While that is correct in principle, unless you are facing a serious shortage of breaker slots, it's not something I would worry about -- at least not until all the other issues have been addressed. The larger concern is that those "outlet circuits" are apparently only 15A each. Particularly in a garage, 20A using AWG 12 (or AWG 10 if the runs are long) should be considered S.O.P..

I do agree that the easiest way to clean up the garage wiring would be to rip out all of the drywall and then see how the branch circuits were run then redesign per code and optimize/maximize available power. I am not going to rip out all of the drywall at this point as that would cost me money I don't have right now but maybe in the spring time.

Again, the "rip out & start over" comment was mostly with regard to the house itself, and possibly the main service panel which apparently feeds both it and the garage. While you didn't explicitly say so, your description of the building left open the possibility that the existing wiring could even date back to the knob & tube era. This is in part why I asked you to explicitly identify the electrical service & wiring, and their estimated ages, as best you can.

 

[FunkyfullWidth]

I bought my first house last year, built in 1935. Electrical was updated around the 50's to include a breaker panel.. even so, i'm dealing with 50-60 year old wiring if not older. 2 prong outlets and only 1 outlet in each bedroom, then 2 outlets in the bigger rooms... I also have no insulation in the house.

My problem is the same as yours. Where do I start. I'm hoping to start on the first floor. tear out the walls room by room, lay in some outlets,lights, switches, find a clear path to the room above on the second floor for running wires, insulate, drywall, paint, move on. Depending on how old your wires are replacement may be necesary. at the same time, I may run piping in the walls to plan for baseboard heating the future.

I had one wall sconce that did not work. I took the fixture off the wall to see what the problem was. Shutting off the breaker of course, I found that the wires were so brittle when I tried to bend them the sheating just disintegrated. Needless to say, I taped, capped and left it alone.

 

[Albiemanmike]

If the garage electrical installation is only ~10 years old, then I agree: There is (or at least "should be") no need to rip it out and start over. I'd gotten the impression from your initial post that the wiring in both the house and the garage was MUCH older than this; and my suggestion to consider starting over was primarily with respect to the house itself, as opposed to the garage in particular.



While that is correct in principle, unless you are facing a serious shortage of breaker slots, it's not something I would worry about -- at least not until all the other issues have been addressed. The larger concern is that those "outlet circuits" are apparently only 15A each. Particularly in a garage, 20A using AWG 12 (or AWG 10 if the runs are long) should be considered S.O.P..



Again, the "rip out & start over" comment was mostly with regard to the house itself, and possibly the main service panel which apparently feeds both it and the garage. While you didn't explicitly say so, your description of the building left open the possibility that the existing wiring could even date back to the knob & tube era. This is in part why I asked you to explicitly identify the electrical service & wiring, and their estimated ages, as best you can.

2many,
It looks as though even given that the house is 1850 vintage that all of the electrical systems have been modernized and updated prior to our purchase. The main house breaker panel looks to be a 200 amp as well as the garage. The garage as I stated is quite new and it has modern framing and GFCI'S as well. My only problem is that the available slots in the panel are all occupied so that leaves me no slots to add some 220 volt outlets for my tablesaw, jointer and planer. I could get by with only one 220 outlet and just use the machines one at a time which is how I have been doing it in my current garage. But it would be optimal to have a single 220 volt outlet for each machine so that I would not have to keep plugging each one in every time I need to use it. Oh I forgot I also have a 220 bandsaw as well.

 

[RickP]

When I say there are too many circuits what I am trying to say is that for example he may only have 2 outlets taking up on breaker slot when I am sure you could have more than 2 15 amp outlets on a single leg/branch. This takes up a slot in the panel that could be utilized for something else as very rarely if ever will every outlet be in use.

You might be able to combine some of those circuits pretty easily to free up a few breaker slots -- without ripping out drywall. If you could find a couple of 120v circuits that feed only 2 outlets each, you could just combine the circuits at the panel. I'm not sure if you're allowed to combine them with a wirenut inside the panel, but you could add a junction box next to the panel. Then run a new feed wire from a single 20A breaker to the j-box, That would free up a breaker. Any code gurus know if this is allowed?

 

[RickP]

The panel in the garage is a 200 amp panel and it is fairly new within the last 10 years I would guess. I am not going to rip it all apart and start over I think I just need to makes sense of what was done and then modify it to make it more normal.

Well, at least your service was already upgraded. I lived in a house in the 70s that only had four fuses -- to run the entire house!!!

Where you're adding a new light switch, have you thought about using some of the new x10 products?

www.smarthome.com/about_x10.html

Adding a few of those seems like it would be a lot easier than pulling wire for new switches!