New (Old Stock) Lend-Lease Snap On

[Dave455]

Well, I’m at home this week. Bit of time to catch up on projects, and browse a bit of GJ!

I was talking to a mate about some war vintage Blue Point wrenches I picked up, when he asked me where was good for a few Whitworth sockets. I was about to recommend the usual suspects, but began thinking about a source much closer to home - my own loft!

My Grandfather was a great buyer of surplus tools post war, and why not? Decent stuff, very cheap, and surplus shops were common here till the ‘70’s.

Anyway, some bits he got from shops, some from auctions, and quite often you had to buy a mixed lot - something you wanted, something you could use (eventually) and probably something useless! Most of the second category got stashed in his loft till my Dad and I cleared it out in the ‘80’s, and shoved it all in my loft, where it remains!

So, a few minutes of delving turned up these. New, still in the packing (but looking wartime) Snap On Whitworth sockets. Unfortunately, you can’t tell what make they are till you open them up. These have all the white scale you would expect from 75 year old tools, but an overnight soak in white vinegar removes it all gently.

I’ve found 5/16 Whit as well, and know there are more sizes around. Also some 13/16 plug sockets, speed braces, T handles etc. Question is, do I dare give away one, or should I keep ‘em as a set in the packing?

The term “new - old stock” is much abused, but I think these really are! Date code “E” confirms war time production, but I think could be ‘43, ‘44 or ‘45!

 

[woody 73]

A true collector would say...You never remove the box contents or open up any tape; but I for one am glad you did because I enjoy seeing the entire box contents. Thank you so much for sharing it on the GJ.

 

[ttpete]

They were probably part of the toolsets for Packard built R-R Merlin engines.

 

[snapmom]

The packard tools would have a model number that starts with "AT"
Quite a few years ago some one found a hole pallet of war snap on 9/32 dr 1/2" sockets, packed in boxes as pictured.
He sold them as unopened boxes, with a single socket from a open box included

 

[Dave455]

They were probably part of the toolsets for Packard built R-R Merlin engines.

No, I don’t think so.

I realise that, in the U.S. the most commonly found wartime Whitworth tools are for Packard built Merlins, but the U.K. placed many orders for hand tools with U.S. companies, all were Whitworth sizes, and they were used for anything and everything.

As far as I’m aware, the U.K. didn’t use many Packard built Merlins, and wouldn’t need specific toolsets anywhay, as every mechanic already had a set of Whitworth Spanners and sockets, and anyone working on Merlins had access to any specialised tools required.

It was Different in the U.S. where anybody looking at a Merlin took one look at the bolt sizes and said “What the f##k” hence the toolkits were needed!

The opposite happened in the U.K. When U.S. made vehicles first arrived, nobody had the tools to work on them. A lot of SAE tools made it to the U.K under Lend Lease for this reason. I still have all of my Grandfathers - mostly Williams. Decent stuff!

 

[Farmer J.]

It's interesting to see what you have stashed away in your loft Dave!
The Army surplus sales and shops were always a good source of all sorts of bargains, but as you say one often had to buy a whole 'lot' to get the item you were after.
My uncle impulsively bought a mobile crane at an auction for his steeplejack business, it was a bargain price but then he discovered it would only do 3mph top speed and the engine and the drive system overheated. He drove it home but it took him 20 hours!

 

[Dave455]

It's interesting to see what you have stashed away in your loft Dave!
The Army surplus sales and shops were always a good source of all sorts of bargains, but as you say one often had to buy a whole 'lot' to get the item you were after.
My uncle impulsively bought a mobile crane at an auction for his steeplejack business, it was a bargain price but then he discovered it would only do 3mph top speed and the engine and the drive system overheated. He drove it home but it took him 20 hours!

You wouldn’t believe it if you saw it!

But for every gem there’s a curio, and then a whole load of toot!

Yes, I miss the surplus shops. I caught the very last of them and got some good stuff. Got a huge cased set of taps and dies, up to 3/4 BSF, for next to no money.

I can remember Tottenham Court Road before the electronics shops all pitched up. Every other shop seemed to be selling surplus, but there was always loads of obscure **** ready for purchase by the unwary..!

Your uncle sounds like a bit of a dude!

 

[2oolhound]

Good things come in small packages.

I scored these from UK ebay several years back. 1/4W is the most common size on my Norton Motorcycles. The snap-on sockets are very thin walled and fit places where other brands do not. Regardless I still have to turn these ones down to fit in a few places where sockets usually don't go. I'm always so scared I'll break one when torqueing down the head that I bought all the seller had left. (saved on shipping that way too)

That white corrosion looked scary but the sockets buffed up very nicely. I shouldn't call it corrosion actually, it was mostly just on the surface. These were the worst ones as I recall.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Very nice, Dave. Snap-on, Blackhawk, and Walden-Worcester are the brands that show up most often with my UK WWII collector colleagues in BSW format. As you probably know, that 1/4" marking is the size of the BSW bolt, not the size of the head on it or the service opening in that socket, which should be .525.

 

[ttpete]

Good things come in small packages.

I scored these from UK ebay several years back. 1/4W is the most common size on my Norton Motorcycles. The snap-on sockets are very thin walled and fit places where other brands do not. Regardless I still have to turn these ones down to fit in a few places where sockets usually don't go. I'm always so scared I'll break one when torqueing down the head that I bought all the seller had left. (saved on shipping that way too)

That white corrosion looked scary but the sockets buffed up very nicely. I shouldn't call it corrosion actually, it was mostly just on the surface. These were the worst ones as I recall.

I'll bet you're talking about the two 1/4" ones at the rear of the head. I have a box end obstruction wrench that was designed for that job.

 

[Dave455]

Very nice, Dave. Snap-on, Blackhawk, and Walden-Worcester are the brands that show up most often with my UK WWII collector colleagues in BSW format. As you probably know, that 1/4" marking is the size of the BSW bolt, not the size of the head on it or the service opening in that socket, which should be .525.

Yes, all those brands are around, especially for sockets.

For wrenches I see Blue Point and Billings too. I have some Armstrong wrenches that are WW2 vintage, but I can’t recall if they are Whit or SAE.

Absolutely, the 1/4” is the bolt size, provided it’s BSW. In reality, there are probably far more BSF bolts around, and the same size socket fits a 1/4 BSW or a 5/16 BSF.

Provided also, it’s pre war. Once the war got going, all bolt heads used the smaller / BSF hex sizes. This caused a problem - what hex size do you use for 1/8 BSW now, as no smaller wrenches existed. Answer, use a 4 BA. While they were at it, they used 2 BA for 3/16 bolts too! I still see 1/8 BSW / 3/16 BSF wrenches being sold, and wonder if the buyers realise that this hex size hasn’t been used since 1940!

 

[ttpete]

Yes, all those brands are around, especially for sockets.

For wrenches I see Blue Point and Billings too. I have some Armstrong wrenches that are WW2 vintage, but I can’t recall if they are Whit or SAE.

Absolutely, the 1/4” is the bolt size, provided it’s BSW. In reality, there are probably far more BSF bolts around, and the same size socket fits a 1/4 BSW or a 5/16 BSF.

Provided also, it’s pre war. Once the war got going, all bolt heads used the smaller / BSF hex sizes. This caused a problem - what hex size do you use for 1/8 BSW now, as no smaller wrenches existed. Answer, use a 4 BA. While they were at it, they used 2 BA for 3/16 bolts too! I still see 1/8 BSW / 3/16 BSF wrenches being sold, and wonder if the buyers realise that this hex size hasn’t been used since 1940!

Let's bring in another thread form, CEI. All the common sizes have 26 threads per inch. It's a cycle thread found mostly on bicycles and motorcycles. Hex sizes are the same as BSF.

 

[Dave455]

Let's bring in another thread form, CEI. All the common sizes have 26 threads per inch. It's a cycle thread found mostly on bicycles and motorcycles. Hex sizes are the same as BSF.

God, that’s an old term! CEI stood for “Cycle Engineers Institute” as I recall.

In my family these were always known as BSC - British Standard Cycle, which is what they were known as for most of the 20th century.

I bought a new, British made, bicycle in about 1981. It had BSC threads!

 

[2oolhound]

I'll bet you're talking about the two 1/4" ones at the rear of the head. I have a box end obstruction wrench that was designed for that job.

Jeeze, I forgot about those. I haven't had a Norton on the road for 3 years and before that it was 30 years. They're back in moth balls till I can afford to retire.

Actually the one that gives me most trouble is the front center that you get by dropping down from the top. The other 2 front ones are a size smaller and can be gotten from the top with a socket as well. I also use ground down wrenches that slip in between the fins but you're using a thinned down open end on tight fasteners instead of a socket. Sockets are a way faster too. The other ones that give me trouble fit wise are the bolts closest to the spark plugs. They look like there is lots of room there but the head casting is slightly counter bored just big enough for the flat washers under the head bolts and sockets or wrenches often contact the casting where the 1st tiny fin is. I grind that casting on my bikes but for other people's bikes or until they've been ground you need a thinned down socket or ring spanner. Some heads are worse than others. I have ground down wrenches for the back center nut as well though.

 

[ttpete]

Jeeze, I forgot about those. I haven't had a Norton on the road for 3 years and before that it was 30 years. They're back in moth balls till I can afford to retire.

Actually the one that gives me most trouble is the front center that you get by dropping down from the top. The other 2 front ones are a size smaller and can be gotten from the top with a socket as well. I also use ground down wrenches that slip in between the fins but you're using a thinned down open end on tight fasteners instead of a socket. Sockets are a way faster too. The other ones that give me trouble fit wise are the bolts closest to the spark plugs. They look like there is lots of room there but the head casting is slightly counter bored just big enough for the flat washers under the head bolts and sockets or wrenches often contact the casting where the 1st tiny fin is. I grind that casting on my bikes but for other people's bikes or until they've been ground you need a thinned down socket or ring spanner. Some heads are worse than others. I have ground down wrenches for the back center nut as well though.

My main interest is Triumphs. I have a full set of factory special tools and a toolbox drawer full of Whitworth wrenches and sockets of various makes.

My last Norton was an 810 Dunstall Atlas.

 

[2oolhound]

I have a couple of dunstall 810 kits. One is brand new and I still have my original receipt for it. I don't remember the price off hand but it was rediculous by today's standards.

I went on a whitworth crusade when I got my bikes out of storage (after 30 years) as all my tools had been stolen. Now I have lots of whitworth and specialty tools.

 

[ttpete]

I have a couple of dunstall 810 kits. One is brand new and I still have my original receipt for it. I don't remember the price off hand but it was rediculous by today's standards.

I went on a whitworth crusade when I got my bikes out of storage (after 30 years) as all my tools had been stolen. Now I have lots of whitworth and specialty tools.

The 810's biggest problem was stripping out the headbolt holes.

I still have a new Dunstall needle bearing camshaft that has drilled lobes for pressure oil feed. It also has 3 keyways for timing purposes.

I also have the factory hydraulic puller for the drive side main bearing and sprocket.

 

[2oolhound]

Apologies Dave455 if we're straying off topic a bit but these machines are heavily whitworth on the inside.

I have a similar cam although with just 1 keyway. I think it's called a Dunstall Mk 3 but it's packed in oil along with the jugs right now. Some of them have a reputation of being soft and others I've heard were kind of stepped instead of smooth grinds. Do you still have the specs on lift/duration handy? Is it ground for radiused lifters? Does it have the speedo drive gears?

I've never seen that hydraulic puller. My bikes are Commandos with triple row chain but that sprocket is still nasty with the whitworth threaded pullers. I use a conventional whitworth threaded puller/splitter on the bearing. I'd be interested in seeing pics of this puller.

I'll PM you in case you are interested to sell, so we don't hijack this whitworth thread

 

[Dave455]

I think ‘thread drift’ is fine! It’s probably the way a conversation would go if everyone was sitting together with beer, instead of individually with beer!

Anyway, this wasn’t really a Whitworth thread, just me posting some of my treasures!