New Perka 40' x 40'

[Tommy5725]

Hi all,

I'm just getting ready to build a Perka hybrid building model 4000. My codes officer required New York State stamped plans for snow loads, wind loads, and all that. I received those today.

I was wondering if anyone knows foundations and load requirements? The codes officer seems willing to hear out what I have in mind. That's a lot better than forcing me to get stamped plans. But I don't really want this thing to fall down either, lol. So being I've got the building plans and loads I was hoping to find somebody that could take a look at those numbers and give me an idea what size cement piers I should go with. Or, at least a ballpark. Ground is clay/gravel.

Thanks for any help,
Töm

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[readhead]

You would normally turn over the plans and reactions to a structural engineer who will design and seal the foundation plan for you to submit to the building department as part of the permit application.

 

[Awag]

I'm putting up a used York building. It is the same kind of building as a Perka. It was sitting on 12"x12" square footings before it was taken down. I don't know how deep they went. I just used a 18" auger and drilled down to below frost level at my new site. Right or wrong only time will tell. But if 12 x12 was good I thought 18 diameter should be plenty. No permits where it's going up.

 

[matt_i]

I don't fully understand why there are different loadings for the opposing column lines...seems like if its a symmetrical closed frame then the loading would be equal.

In any case if you add up all of the vertical loads to be around 14,250 lbs on column line "A" and average those over 5 locations its less than 3000 lb vertical per column base.

Consider the ground has a bearing of 2000 lbs per square foot. You'd need a minimum of 1-1/2 square feet of bearing for each column. 16" square is a nice size that would give you 1,33 feet per side and a square foot area of ~1.77. An 18" round would get approx the same square footage of bearing.

The real question is if the footing is to be frost protected...like a sonotube or a drilled hole to 40-60" depth or if this is just something you could hand-dig 1-1/2 to 2ft down from the surface. A grade beam would be ideal to tie this all together. Your layout locations have to be exact if you are casting in studs, you could field-install them later with epoxied anchor studs but the cost of those is 2x to 3x of casting them into wet concrete, but again the layout must be exacting as the rest of the building assembles to those precise centerline dimensions. Everythign should be triple checked before pouring and pieces holding the studs should be extremely solidly mounted. The grey mud is very heavy and the forces involved in flowing it or manually moving it around can easily shift things unintentionally.

My advice is free and I'm no P.E.

 

[nadogail]

IMHO, PERKA is giving you only the minimum amount of customer support they can get away with.

Good Customer Support costs money, by reducing their expenses they can still show a profit by reducing your customer support.

 

[Tommy5725]

Actually, Perka is the only company I've talked to that has given me reasonable customer service. Michele has been honest, upfront and answered all of my questions, and for months and months before they ever saw a nickel. I cannot say the same for US Steel/Worldwide Steel Buildings, Pat was very pushy and evasive at best. However, due to litigation and not knowing the soil conditions and frost lines, they have a little they can do. I get it. They did say that they would have it professionally done but that's $1,800. That $1,800 will go a long way towards getting a lift when the time comes. If I can just overbuild it a little right now I'll be happy. I just don't want to underbilled it. Lol

IMHO, PERKA is giving you only the minimum amount of customer support they can get away with.

Good Customer Support costs money, by reducing their expenses they can still show a profit by reducing your customer support.

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[readhead]

Is there a building department and permit involved?

 

[Tommy5725]

Thanks Matt_I,

My codes guy did tell me that we need to go 48" to eliminate frost heave. As for the numbers, I thought the same thing. But I just figured I'm misinterpreting something. I'm not really sure what the VER and HDR in those columns represent. They did say something about kick out and the possibility of tying the columns from side to side to reduce pier size in the online literature. So maybe it's vertical forces, and horizontal forces? Although I can't say I'm certain, -I can absolutely say I'm guessing.

Also, (user error) I left out one of the pictures I meant to include. It includes the snow load, 60 psf (ground); as well as a few other numbers that may prove useful to someone that knows what to do with them. Lol.

Also the guy from codes showed me plans for a trailer with 8-ft separation between the piers. And they were 24-in diameter, 4-ft deep. It had four #4 rods and used 3,000 psi cement. So, being my piers are wider, 10 ft, and my span considerably wider 40 ft. I'm expecting he wants to see something bigger. He mentioned bumping up to 4,000 or 4,500 PSI cement. Doesn't seem like it costs a lot more, I'm figuring it's harder to work with though.

I've started pondering using 36-in x 4-ft deep Sono tubes. Looks like they'll be between $1,500 and 2 grand just for the cardboard tubes though. Seems like a lot of money for cardboard. However, I can't have my building falling down. Again, I appreciate your time and feedback. And I welcome any additional thoughts.

I don't fully understand why there are different loadings for the opposing column lines...seems like if its a symmetrical closed frame then the loading would be equal.

In any case if you add up all of the vertical loads to be around 14,250 lbs on column line "A" and average those over 5 locations its less than 3000 lb vertical per column base.

Consider the ground has a bearing of 2000 lbs per square foot. You'd need a minimum of 1-1/2 square feet of bearing for each column. 16" square is a nice size that would give you 1,33 feet per side and a square foot area of ~1.77. An 18" round would get approx the same square footage of bearing.

The real question is if the footing is to be frost protected...like a sonotube or a drilled hole to 40-60" depth or if this is just something you could hand-dig 1-1/2 to 2ft down from the surface. A grade beam would be ideal to tie this all together. Your layout locations have to be exact if you are casting in studs, you could field-install them later with epoxied anchor studs but the cost of those is 2x to 3x of casting them into wet concrete, but again the layout must be exacting as the rest of the building assembles to those precise centerline dimensions. Everythign should be triple checked before pouring and pieces holding the studs should be extremely solidly mounted. The grey mud is very heavy and the forces involved in flowing it or manually moving it around can easily shift things unintentionally.

My advice is free and I'm no P.E.

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[Tommy5725]

Yes, my codes office required New York State stamped plans (for the building/trusses). Cost me an extra $1,200 to get in the New York state stamp. Seems that math works the same way in all states.

Is there a building department and permit involved?

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[Tommy5725]

Thanks, I was wondering how far apart your piers are? And how much snow you will have to account for?

I'm putting up a used York building. It is the same kind of building as a Perka. It was sitting on 12"x12" square footings before it was taken down. I don't know how deep they went. I just used a 18" auger and drilled down to below frost level at my new site. Right or wrong only time will tell. But if 12 x12 was good I thought 18 diameter should be plenty. No permits where it's going up.

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[Tommy5725]

This is a hybrid pole barn, it's a self install, bolt together frame. It's similar to the 6x6 post and frame pole barns that are buried to the frost line. Only these sit on a cement.pier.

You would normally turn over the plans and reactions to a structural engineer who will design and seal the foundation plan for you to submit to the building department as part of the permit application.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[matt_i]

I've started pondering using 36-in x 4-ft deep Sono tubes. Looks like they'll be between $1,500 and 2 grand just for the cardboard tubes though. Seems like a lot of money for cardboard. However, I can't have my building falling down. Again, I appreciate your time and feedback. And I welcome any additional thoughts.

In this case I wouldn't waste any money on sono tubes. I would just earth form the footing (i.e. dig a hole round or square) and fill it with concrete.

Like any big mass of concrete you want some rebars to hold it together.

This is a ~2 cubic yard hole I put into my shop for a crane foundation (48" square x 52-ish inches deep) and how I reinforced it. 4000 psi concrete. The wood is so I can climb back out But its a basic "steel belt" around the cube and some X-braces thru the center. Ultimately it has some anchor bolts cast in as well.



At the same time you are working on footings, I would think about doing a monolithic slab with the large holes and grade beams under the surface. That's how most steel-frame buildings are put together. I think you should try to find a P.E. that can give you a complete design for about $1k. Should have all the rebar sizes, grade beams, etc. You can either build it to print or hand over the drawing for quote.

 

[Tommy5725]

In this case I wouldn't waste any money on sono tubes. I would just earth form the footing (i.e. dig a hole round or square) and fill it with concrete.

Like any big mass of concrete you want some rebars to hold it together.

This is a ~2 cubic yard hole I put into my shop for a crane foundation (48" square x 52-ish inches deep) and how I reinforced it. 4000 psi concrete. The wood is so I can climb back out But its a basic "steel belt" around the cube and some X-braces thru the center. Ultimately it has some anchor bolts cast in as well.



At the same time you are working on footings, I would think about doing a monolithic slab with the large holes and grade beams under the surface. That's how most steel-frame buildings are put together. I think you should try to find a P.E. that can give you a complete design for about $1k. Should have all the rebar sizes, grade beams, etc. You can either build it to print or hand over the drawing for quote.

It's a little rocky for a 36-inch auger. And 10 of these would take me awhile to gig by hand. I did get the building permit. Will have an excavator to do the digging, so sonotubes it is. I would have loved to get a PE. But I had real trouble googling/searching and finding one. there's way too many different types of engineers out there, I talked to dozens. I asked on a different forum for some help and got beat up in the process.

So 36-in wide 48-in deep with number 4 rebar column in it, made codes happy. I guess if he's unconcerned I shouldn't be either. I helped my father build a pole barn with 6x6's 8 ft apart back in the 90s when I was a teenager and it's holding all the snow and load just fine to this day. So being I'm going to have 20,000 pounds of cement on each side 4-ft deep I should be good. Still would have like to talk to a PE though. A thousand bucks give or take for a professional opinion seems like a good investment to me.

I was going to do a pour with the monolithic slab but I want to do the radiant heat as well. And it was just a little more than I was comfortable biting off, in one chunk. I don't want to end up like the guy that had that disastrous poor, that I saw posted not too long ago.

Thanks again for your time and help I appreciate it. It's a pretty impressive hole you dug there! Don't imagine you'll have any issues with that.

I'll post pictures and such as we make progress.

Thanks,
Töm

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[Jagmandave]

Since Perka is almost local to me I gave them a call and talked to Michelle about my shop project, she was very helpful and they'll be sending someone down to look my site over and work up a more firm estimate. She mentioned most of the same issues for my site also.

 

[Cobradriver]

Tommy,

I found this post via the goog and figured since I was a member here I'd ask a few
questions if you don't mind...

Are you overall happy with the Perka building?

Did you purchase just the steel or all the materials from them?

Rough idea on cost for the 40x40 you purchased?

Were the overhangs pricey?

I'm looking at putting up a 60x100 or 120 next year. I'm lucky that when my
Brothers business is slow I can pay his two employees to help me erect it.
My Uncle put up a similar sized Perka building for dry storage of hay and
seemed very happy with it. Sadly he passed last year and I can't pick his
brain about it...

Thanks!!!!

Chris