New pole building improvements

[Ggg]

I'm in the process of (building/ having it built) a pole barn. It's a Morton 48x64x14. No concrete until spring, with radiant floor heat. I'm finishing all the interior and electrical myself. Used for welding and mechanical repairs. Location N.W. IL on the WI border, it's always windy here. Morton has finished up erecting the shell, waiting on the overhead doors to get installed.
My question is for those who have been down this road before. What would you do differently or add to the building to make it a better building? Such as; added bracing in the trusses and walls, air draft sealing, insulation, etc.
Pics to come.

 

[lakeroadster]

Tell us more about the building construction, such as:

ridge vents, ridge acrylic light panels, soffit vents, sandard wall girts or bookshelf girts?

Are you planning to leave it as one big space, or plan to build internal dividing walls?

Will you install a ceiling, or need open span between trusses?

Do you want to hang objects on the walls such as cabinets?

Check out my build thread below... might be something there you find interesting.

 

[Ggg]

Ridge vent along entire ridge, soffit vents with 1' soffit on all sides, finished ceiling with insulation, no acrylic panels, std. wall girts, one big area no walls, yes some cabinets will be hung on the wall but not many. Most storage will be self standing or pallet racks.

 

[Ggg]

Having issues with the pics posting rotated. Can't get them to post right side up.

 

[Ggg]

Try again

 

[lakeroadster]

I studded the walls out, 24" on center, used batt insulation, and sheathed with plywood where I was planning to hang cabinets.

I also considered all the walls as floating. Meaning none of the walls go all the way to the floor, they are all at least 2" off the slab to allow for slab movement.

Details can be found at my build thread below. Hope that helps.

Your colors look a lot like our barn...

 

[Ggg]

I have looked at your build thread, thanks.
Unfortunately I can't get pics to post right side up. I've tried several times and all to no avail.

 

[lakeroadster]

That's one big building!

Your photo's...

 

[Ggg]

Thank you. Only so much I can do from an iPhone I guess. I tried editing the pics and rotating them to compensate for what the site is doing but still they turn out sideways or upside down.
I agree the barn colors are very similar. I wish I could have had some windows installed but they were cost prohibitive and I've been robbed twice so no big desire to provide easy access.

 

[Firebrick43]

I would have gutters, down spouts, directly into underground pipe.

6" of crushed stone properly compacted and 10 mil stegowrap with foam under slab.

I don't personally see any advantage to building stud walls in a pole building. Girts with a continuous fiberglass blanket that is the width of the pole bays has same strength for hanging items, less thermal bridging, less lumber cost, cheaper insulation, faster, and adds more racking restance than stud walls inside the poles.

 

[lakeroadster]

I agree with Firebrick 43 with the following caveat: Pole barn walls / girts are designed for wind loads, not to hold weight hanging on the walls, such as cabinets.

 

[Ggg]

My downspouts will be connected to drain tiles. How it is now is how Morton finished it.
There is a lot 12"+ of limestone road stone with fines (ca6) as the base. Compacted with vibratory roller every 3-4" lift. Even the base stone with fines was vibratory roller compacted. The gravel pad & driveway were done 4 years ago and used as a parking lot of sorts for all my vehicles and trailers prior to the building being erected this month.
I planned on vapor barrier and R10 insulation under the slab. But the foam board will cost over $3800. The cost is making me rethink the 2" R10 foam board, for an alternative. So far nothing I've seen offers an equivalent R-value.

 

[hoho98925]

My downspouts will be connected to drain tiles. How it is now is how Morton finished it.
There is a lot 12"+ of limestone road stone with fines (ca6) as the base. Compacted with vibratory roller every 3-4" lift.
I planned on vapor barrier and R10 insulation under the slab. But the foam board will cost over $3800. The cost is making me rethink the 2" R10 foam board.

Yes the foam board is expensive. If you put radiant heat in the floor without the insulation, it will never work. Do yourself a favor and do it right the first time. You only have the one chance, just my two cents.

 

[Firebrick43]

Use screws to attach girts and sheath they will still hold huge loads hanging on the wall. The wall sheathing, even drywall can carry huge loads in racking/compression. Screws keep the girts from pulling out of the pole. Use two screw where ever a girt crosses the pole for racking resistantance. 3" construction screws not drywall screws.

I have never done anything past this but I have seen some nail some steel strapping to the bottom of the outside girt running up and over the girt and left pointing up. As they place the fiberglass blanket they reach around and poke the steel strap through the fiberglass and over the top edge and down the face of the inside girt and underneath nailing 2 10d nails in shear. The ties the outside and inside girts together with poles in compression. Takes just a few mins per girt and only needs done at cabinet height.

 

[rusty1]

...I wouldn't fix up the inside too fancy til the crete is poured, sometimes that makes a mess along the wall bottoms, etc.

 

[Ggg]

Hoho I don't dispute the advantages of using insulation, there is no doubt it helps. But here is where I'm at from a diminishing returns point of view. A neighbor of mine has almost the same size shop with radiant floor heat. He has had it for many years, the slab was poured with no insulation at all, only a vapor barrier. He maintains it only costs him $10/month to heat his shop once the system is turned on in the fall. So $3800\10per mo.=380\12months =31.66 years. I will not live long enough to justify the benefits of the below slab insulation. Or am I thinking of this all wrong? I'm not advocating pouring without any insulation, maybe just around the perimeter as many have stated this is where a large percentage of heat loss occurs.
I agree with your statement you only get one chance to do the job right. Just trying to make sure I'm not overthinking this due to cost v/s benefit point of view.

 

[Firebrick43]

Ggg,

You don't find it the slightest bit odd that anyone could heat 3000 square feet for 10$ a month? I find that number highly dubious even if it was one of the best sealed and insulated builds on earth. An well sealed and insulated home half that size is going to be close to 80 dollars in the winter on cheap natural gas. That's an hour or two south of you.

 

[Chris705]

Ggg - look for used rigid insulation in nearby cities on Craigslist. At very least be sure to put rigid at slabs eges & under the perimeter 4 or 8'. This will lessen the amount of lost heat going to cold earth outside your building.

 

[2012Eli3]

whats the temp the neighbor is heating shop to ? 10$/mo for heating is super low for for shop that size in that part of country unless he is maintaining just above freezing or has other heat sources inside shop. And like rusty1 said get your floor done and the rolling scaffold and other stuff will be a little easier to work with

 

[justanengineer]

My question is for those who have been down this road before. What would you do differently or add to the building to make it a better building?

Stick build.

 

[Ggg]

Firebrick, 2012Eli3 - you both make some good points and I'll have to double check the info I stated. I do know he stores cars for winter so no opening of the overhead doors once the barn is full. No windows in his barn, which are essentially a hole in the wall from an R value standpoint. I don't know what temp he sets the thermostat at, that's some of the info I need to confirm.
Rusty1- I agree I don't plan of finishing the walls until after the pour. But I plan on running lighting electrical, blow in insulation, & finishing the ceiling this winter.
Chris705- I have been keeping an eye out on Craigslist for reclaimed insulation as well as other things for this project.

I have no idea why this site rotates the pics I post, and only allows one pic per post. Im on a different device this time, same problems as last night. Sorry guys for the messed up pics.

 

[lakeroadster]

Use two screw where ever a girt crosses the pole for racking resistantance. 3" construction screws not drywall screws.

Many pole barns don't have the girts crossing the poles. They meet flush on the side, and are toe nailed.

We used joist hangers on my barn for all girts and purlins...

 

[jrb2]

Probably a little late to post this but I have a building almost exactly as you describe yours, only mine is a little smaller (40 X 60). The one thing I did not do, that was a major mistake was to wrap the building with Tyvek or some similar wind proofing material. I placed studs between the poles, used 6 inch batt insulation, painted OSB walls, but I still have a lot of air coming in around the plugins and other cracks and gaps.

 

[Ggg]

I didn't really have a chance to wrap mine due to the crew worked very efficiently. Meaning I would have been in their way. The temps the week mine was built were in low teens to single digits, very windy all week as well. Im thinking of having all the corners where walls meet or meet the slab sprayed with closed cell foam to air seal the bldg.

 

[Ggg]

John after reading most of your barn thread, all I can say is WOW you had a ton of BS to deal with. My hat is off to you for standing your ground and holding them accountable for their screw ups. No way were you too picky.
I couldn't be happier with the crew and finished product I got. The Morton build crews around here are employees of Morton, I believe this to hold true for all areas. It took 6 days to complete the shell of my building.
I like the cross bracing on your trusses, that's the kind of ideas I am looking for when I started this thread. I believe I'm going to copy the idea on mine.
In response to your footing and wood certification issues I thought you might like to see how mine were done just as a comparison of another way to skin a cat. Concrete caissons were installed and leveled. Hole was filled half way with cement, then the spoils were shoveled in to fill the rest of the hole. Posts attach to the caissons with 20 screws per post.

 

[Ggg]

Post attached to caisson.

 

[Ggg]

Post attached to caisson. Rotated 180* prior to uploading and still posts upside down.

 

[lakeroadster]

John after reading most of your barn thread, all I can say is WOW you had a ton of BS to deal with. My hat is off to you for standing your ground and holding them accountable for their screw ups. No way were you too picky.

Thanks. I called Morton early on, 3 times, they never got back to me. We live in a somewhat remote area. As fate would intervene, they were having representative issues and the new guy finally contacted me months later, after I already had signed with Lester.

I can't recommend Lester.. they aren't the company they used to be. After the barn was built I returned their feedback survey, outlining the issues with the barn. They never responded.

Probably a little late to post this but I have a building almost exactly as you describe yours, only mine is a little smaller (40 X 60). The one thing I did not do, that was a major mistake was to wrap the building with Tyvek or some similar wind proofing material. I placed studs between the poles, used 6 inch batt insulation, painted OSB walls, but I still have a lot of air coming in around the plugins and other cracks and gaps.

I didn't really have a chance to wrap mine due to the crew worked very efficiently. Meaning I would have been in their way. The temps the week mine was built were in low teens to single digits, very windy all week as well. Im thinking of having all the corners where walls meet or meet the slab sprayed with closed cell foam to air seal the bldg.

Pole buildings are leaky by nature of their construction. I had Tyvek on site to wrap my building, but it was just to damned windy that day. If I had it to do over I would have had the entire building, walls and roof, sheathed with osb and Tyvek before the steel went on.

Those concrete caissons on your building are slick. I reoriented your photo's, and re-posted them below.

Why are you wanting additional bracing in the truss area?

 

[Ggg]

Thank you for the photo help John. I had the same issue with Cleary, and Wick buildings not returning calls. If I were to build another barn, from what I've seen so far with Morton, I would call them again without getting competive quotes.
Why the additional bracing or work? I'm just trying to make the building as sturdy, varmint resistant, and airtight as I can before I finish off the interior and limit the access to attic and inner wall areas. I agree wrapping the building before the steel was installed would have been the best time. But it just wasn't in their cards unfortunately.

Here is another picture of the caissons showing the adjustable foot (silver) on the bottom. They can adjust the foot to level each one by turning a bolt located in the top between the post plates.

 

[Ggg]

Probably a little late to post this but I have a building almost exactly as you describe yours, only mine is a little smaller (40 X 60). The one thing I did not do, that was a major mistake was to wrap the building with Tyvek or some similar wind proofing material. I placed studs between the poles, used 6 inch batt insulation, painted OSB walls, but I still have a lot of air coming in around the plugins and other cracks and gaps.

Jrb2 - Prior to putting up the interior walls & insulating did you caulk, spray foam, or try any other method to seal the building from air intrusion?

 

[Red05GT]

Ggg, I would definitely take your neighbors claim with a grain of salt in regards to heating
even a garden shed for $ 10. per month! One thought on the rigid foam, Menards during their 11% off sale would take some of the sting away. Also have seen a place advertised in AutoRVtrader for years that sells various types of foam. Have never talked with them but their web site is FourSeasonsBiz.com. You will regret it if you don't at least prep for the radiant heat while you have the chance.

 

[2012Eli3]

I bought/installed 1.5" rigid foam(Menards sale plus rebate) last winter then had 1" closed cell spray foam over that in spring sealing everything before putting up interior liner. trying to get photos up

 

[2012Eli3]

Hope they show up. Pink is rigid foam i nailed up last winter. other is 1" closed cell spray foam this spring. Actually spray foam is significantly more than 1" and filled everything

 

[lakeroadster]

I bought/installed 1.5" rigid foam(Menards sale plus rebate) last winter then had 1" closed cell spray foam over that in spring sealing everything before putting up interior liner. trying to get photos up

Slick... Since the spray foam isn't in contact with the exterior steel panels the warranty isn't affected & they can be removed / replaced if need be.

Did you spray the foam yourself?

 

[2012Eli3]

Contractor did spray foam walls, installed wind stop/baffles in attic then blew in R-40 cellulose in attic. when it finally got hot in August/September it would be 8-10 degrees cooler inside. I did not even consider benefit of keeping heat out in summer

 

[Ggg]

2012eli3 thank you for the ideas. How did you retain the foam board in place? Did you glue the pieces between the girts to the longer pieces then screw them to the girts? I see you have a vapor barrier on top of the spray foam. Isn't the closed cell foam a vapor barrier itself?
John I agree on the spray foam not adhering to the steel allowing them to be removed if need be. The only thing is I'm already concerned about the cost of buying foam board, this adds a lot more to buy. Oh well it's only money, can't take it with me.
Red thanks for the possible lead on the foam board. i see Menards has that 11% sale on now.
For the record, I'm not trying to talk my way out of doing this right. But rather how to do it correctly yet keep the cost in check.

 

[2012Eli3]

Nails with plastic buttons. The rigid foam between girts is where I had clearance issue for bathroom plumbing vent inside wall so put between girts then attached vent to girt. Red seal tape kept in place until foam sprayed. Rigid foam easy to work with. Nails **** since they are so thin but you get in the zone after a while. After I bent 2-3 in a row it was Miller time. then continue next day. I didn't know any better and put up vapor barrier since spray foam was not guaranteed as vapor barrier.