new professional grade harbor freight ratchets

[OutsideMachinist]

I maybe would grab some when the price lowers a bit. They look decent enough. The old composite ones are great for the price. Sure they will strip out if you work em hard but for the price cant beat them. Only thing I dont like about them is oil eats them up. I prefer locking flex heads but as others have said that may be in works depending how those sell.

 

[monomach]

Quality has nothing to do with the geographical area IMO, it's strictly whatever the retailer specs call for.

Yes, and my point was that retailers who want ****** specs for bottom-dollar have to go to China because Taiwan hasn't been able to provide that for almost ten years now.

China can make fine things...it's just that making fine things costs just as much there as it does in Taiwan or some of our crappier anti-labor states.

Geography does matter.

If you want to buy ratchets for a quarter, you have to get a contract with that factory with the dirt floor and the political prisoner laborers who have to sleep under their workstation between shifts. That's only available in one place right now.

 

[Hiball]

Yes, and my point was that retailers who want ****** specs for bottom-dollar have to go to China because Taiwan hasn't been able to provide that for almost ten years now.

China can make fine things...it's just that making fine things costs just as much there as it does in Taiwan or some of our crappier anti-labor states.

Geography does matter.

If you want to buy ratchets for a quarter, you have to get a contract with that factory with the dirt floor and the political prisoner laborers who have to sleep under their workstation between shifts. That's only available in one place right now.

You are contradicting yourself...

 

[monomach]

You are contradicting yourself...

No, I'm really not.

It can't be that difficult to grasp that China has a wider range of capability than anyone else in the world. They have excellent factories with happy workers and good steel and they have prison work camps with workers that commit suicide and use pot metal. Both make tools. They're not the same quality and one charges much, much more for the product than the other.

Taiwan also has excellent factories. It does not have prison work camps. It no longer uses pot metal. Therefore, it cannot make the shittier level of tools that China is capable of making.

So, yes. Geography absolutely matters. Taiwan is no longer capable of making a crappy stamped-out wrench that you can turn a profit on when selling a whole set for two bucks at Wal-Mart. China can match Taiwan, but then you lose the price advantage that you went to China for in the first place.

This is why people prefer Taiwan to China. Yes, you can get good things from China. Unfortunately, the odds are against it because there's little incentive for companies to make it there because they have to pay just as much as they'd pay from Taiwan. On the other hand, you just can't be burned with a Taiwan tool the way you can with the stuff that companies usually do get from China. The worst they make these days is of acceptable quality. Taiwan is safe. China is a gamble.

 

[Farmall450]

Quality has nothing to do with the geographical area IMO, it's strictly whatever the retailer specs call for.

Exactly...China could make a perfect dual 80 if you paid them enough money.

 

[MagnumForce]

I've always been curious to why the forum sentiments toward "China versus USA" is always "Well if China wanted to build quality products they could, it's whatever the Retailer orders" followed by a engineer who has visited china factories claiming they are just as capable in the manufacturing sector. Yet.. Whenever China versus Taiwan comes into the discussion it's always "Taiwan is a acceptable COO versus China". What are you guys saying? China can't compete with Taiwan? Taiwan doesn't make junk? Regardless of what the supplier requests?

It's all in what you are paying for, I have seen a lot of USA made junk too. I use craftsman China stuff daily and think it is just as good as the US Craftsman stuff was, I use Taiwan made Gear wrench and it is way better than my us made allen and Masterforce stuff. And all of those things are just in the apex family.

 

[Hiball]

No, I'm really not.

Ok..

Your Right, The Quality of Manufactured Item has nothing to do with the Retailers specifications whether it's produced in the USA, China or Taiwan. I'm talking Apples to Apples, not trying to compare a .25 tool to a $25 dollar tool.



A good example would be GW, produced in Taiwan for years and now produced in China. Based off this forum, quality hasn't suffered for Identical tools and the Price has remained constant.

 

[Hiball]

It's all in what you are paying for, I have seen a lot of USA made junk too. I use craftsman China stuff daily and think it is just as good as the US Craftsman stuff was, I use Taiwan made Gear wrench and it is way better than my us made allen and Masterforce stuff. And all of those things are just in the apex family.

Thanks for reinforcing my point..

 

[Hiball]

Exactly...China could make a perfect dual 80 if you paid them enough money.

You Got It...

 

[nieuport17]

Since Taiwan is an ally, I'm guessing GJ members tend to give them a bit more breaks.
My 2 cents

 

[monomach]

Ok..

Your Right, The Quality of Manufactured Item has nothing to do with the Retailers specifications whether it's produced in the USA, China or Taiwan. I'm talking Apples to Apples, not trying to compare a .25 tool to a $25 dollar tool.



A good example would be GW, produced in Taiwan for years and now produced in China. Based off this forum, quality hasn't suffered for Identical tools and the Price has remained constant.

You're being willfully ignorant and ignoring virtually everything I've said. I explained it. Taiwan is SAFE for customers like us because it cannot make the lowest tier of tools. That is why we prefer it. China is NOT SAFE because that is where manufacturers who are willing to sell trash go to get it. The Chinese don't give a f***. They'll make it however you want it. THAT is why unscrupulous companies source from there. Meanwhile, Taiwan has base standards ensuring that you don't get a tool that is just plain unsuitable for use.

...and I don't know what forum you've been reading. Gearwrench has been called out around here plenty of times for the drop in quality they experienced when moving ratcheting wrenches over there. That is why people actively seek out the Taiwanese old stock of SKUs made in both places.

Thanks for reinforcing my point..

Yes, the US can make junk. One only has to look at a Craftsman raised panel ratchet to see that. Can you get something as bad as a Durasteel wrench from a current US toolmaker, though?

Nope.

You Got It...

Yes, they could. BUT THEY DON'T. The reason being that it would make no sense to have a dual 80 made there. Between the extra money you have to pay to get that kind of quality out of them and the freight from around the world, all of a sudden you have a ratchet that you made in China that you don't make a larger profit on than the US version.

Proof: Show me a single chinese ratchet on par with a dual 80. I've never even seen one on par with a basic Taiwanese Toptul.

 

[Hiball]

You're being willfully ignorant and ignoring virtually everything I've said. I explained it. Taiwan is SAFE for customers like us because it cannot make the lowest tier of tools. That is why we prefer it. China is NOT SAFE because that is where manufacturers who are willing to sell trash go to get it. The Chinese don't give a f***. They'll make it however you want it. THAT is why unscrupulous companies source from there. Meanwhile, Taiwan has base standards ensuring that you don't get a tool that is just plain unsuitable for use.

...and I don't know what forum you've been reading. Gearwrench has been called out around here plenty of times for the drop in quality they experienced when moving ratcheting wrenches over there. That is why people actively seek out the Taiwanese old stock of SKUs made in both places.



Yes, the US can make junk. One only has to look at a Craftsman raised panel ratchet to see that. Can you get something as bad as a Durasteel wrench from a current US toolmaker, though?

Nope.




Yes, they could. BUT THEY DON'T. The reason being that it would make no sense to have a dual 80 made there. Between the extra money you have to pay to get that kind of quality out of them and the freight from around the world, all of a sudden you have a ratchet that you made in China that you don't make a larger profit on than the US version.

Proof: Show me a single chinese ratchet on par with a dual 80. I've never even seen one on par with a basic Taiwanese Toptul.

I'd ask that you don't call me ignorant, if you don't want to have a simple discussion that's fine. If it makes you feel better ill just drop out.

 

[monomach]

I'd ask that you don't call me ignorant, if you don't want to have a simple discussion that's fine. If it makes you feel better ill just drop out.

I'd ask that you not cherry pick one or two sentences to reply to and ignore the points made in all of the others when you reply...the way you've done every. single. time.

 

[Toyota mechanic]

So... By your own admissions this entire Taiwan is OK but China is Bad except when they want to be has really nothing to do with whether it's produced in China or Taiwan. It boils down to what specifications the retailer requests? Correct?



Quality has nothing to do with the geographical area IMO, it's strictly whatever the retailer specs call for.

The COMPANIES goto China to make a cheaper tool... Why would GearWrench or Stanley go from Taiwan to China? For more profit, right? How do they make the tool cheaper in China for more profit?????? Quality is bound to go down. SURE, IF China was paid and demanded the same from said company they quality would be parallel, but cheapening things usually means slips in quality. From my 'experience', thus far.... The Taiwan tools are better regardless of brand, so the companies make them cheaper and not as well in China by my use observations.

 

[OutsideMachinist]

 

[Toyota mechanic]

I may go buy the composite ratchet. I suspect it is made in Taiwan... which in my experience means quality COMPANY, as Hiball helped point out I don't have a composite ratchet, so as a tool nut, the 13 bucks will be a good buy for something new, and fairly unavailable in other brands....

 

[Hiball]

I'd ask that you not cherry pick one or two sentences to reply to and ignore the points made in all of the others when you reply...the way you've done every. single. time.

I think you should go back and reread some of the responses.. Yes I agree that a company wanting a .25 cent stamped wrench from China will probably be a lesser quality than a forged wrench from Taiwan.

But... What about a .25 cent wrench from china compared to a .25 cent wrench from Taiwan?

Whether you agree or not.. (Which his fine) I'm not going to call you ignorant, I feel manufacturing specs has more to do with quality versus geography, regardless if your talking about USA, Europe, India, Taiwan or China.

 

[Farmall450]

Yes, they could. BUT THEY DON'T. The reason being that it would make no sense to have a dual 80 made there. Between the extra money you have to pay to get that kind of quality out of them and the freight from around the world, all of a sudden you have a ratchet that you made in China that you don't make a larger profit on than the US version.

Proof: Show me a single chinese ratchet on par with a dual 80. I've never even seen one on par with a basic Taiwanese Toptul.

I only stated they could; you clearly agree.
I bet they make some darn good tools for their own military, etc.

 

[Farmall450]

I think you should go back and reread some of the responses.. Yes I agree that a company wanting a .25 cent stamped wrench from China will probably be a lesser quality than a forged wrench from Taiwan.

But... What about a .25 cent wrench from china compared to a .25 cent wrench from Taiwan?

Whether you agree or not.. (Which his fine) I'm not going to call you ignorant, I feel manufacturing specs has more to do with quality versus geography, regardless if your talking about USA, Europe, India, Taiwan or China.

Dead on the money...and while I still prefer US, plenty of manufacturers can make better ones if instructed to (Koken, Knipex...)

Not saying US manuf. don't, they certainly do, but it's all a balance of price and quality.

 

[monomach]

I think you should go back and reread some of the responses.. Yes I agree that a company wanting a .25 cent stamped wrench from China will probably be a lesser quality than a forged wrench from Taiwan.

But... What about a .25 cent wrench from china compared to a .25 cent wrench from Taiwan?

Whether you agree or not.. (Which his fine) I'm not going to call you ignorant, I feel manufacturing specs has more to do with quality versus geography, regardless if your talking about USA, Europe, India, Taiwan or China.

The bolded part here is exactly what I'm talking about. It was explained pretty well in all of the stuff you ignored. There's no such thing as a 25 cent wrench from Taiwan. That was the 70s-90s. You can't even get them to make one now. That is how geography matters.

There is a horrible tier of tool Taiwan in incapable of making. China can and does make it. They LOVE making it because they have a lot of crappy metal to get rid of and a lot of uneducated, unskilled, unemployed people who don't know how to do anything. These tools are just as shiny as quality tools. When you order it, you don't know it's a dog until you get it. Companies have been buying those pieces of ****, and pricing them just low enough to get the purchase over a known quality Taiwan or US tool. Well, or in Sears' case, increasing the price and pocketing the greater profit.

Apex/Craftsman is the best example. Wrench production went to China, they used crappier steel, more were warrantied, they changed open ends to lobster claws in an attempt to stop that, and the list price actually went UP multiple times. Pure profit.

That tier of tool vastly outnumbers the "ok" Chinese hand tools right now.

Meanwhile, you can't find a Taiwanese wrench that needs a lobster claw end because the worst Taiwan wrench available (I dunno...Kobalt? The Stanleys with the fancy open end?) is actually pretty darned good.

Apex/Craftsman could have gotten really good wrenches from Taiwan and still made a really good profit, the way a lot of companies do. They wanted a greedy profit margin, though. Therefore, they went to the place capable of making the crappy quarter wrench and told us it was a ten dollar wrench. That's why geography matters and why you can't compare 25 cent wrenches. That's why Taiwan (and even the worst US tools) tools are "safe." There's no trash. The worst possible outcome is "ok" because they no longer have pot metal and peasants sitting around.

"Geography doesn't matter, only the retailer's standards do" is a horribly flawed black and white statement ignoring that geography is very important when some countries are so modernized that they are flat-out incapable of producing outright rubbish.

 

[Hiball]

The bolded part here is exactly what I'm talking about. It was explained pretty well in all of the stuff you ignored. There's no such thing as a 25 cent wrench from Taiwan. That is how geography matters.

There is a horrible tier of tool Taiwan in incapable of making. China can and does make it. They LOVE making it because they have a lot of crappy metal to get rid of and a lot of uneducated, unskilled, unemployed people who don't know how to do anything. These tools are just as shiny as quality tools. When you order it, you don't know it's a dog until you get it. Companies have been buying those pieces of ****, and pricing them just low enough to get the purchase over a known quality Taiwan or US tool. Well, or in Sears' case, increasing the price and pocketing the greater profit.

Apex/Craftsman is the best example. Wrench production went to China, they used crappier steel, more were warrantied, they changed open ends to lobster claws in an attempt to stop that, and the list price actually went UP multiple times. Pure profit.

Meanwhile, you can't find a Taiwanese wrench that needs a lobster claw end because the worst Taiwan wrench available (I dunno...Kobalt? The Stanleys with the fancy open end?) is actually pretty darned good.

Apex/Craftsman could have gotten really good wrenches from Taiwan and still made a really good profit, the way a lot of companies do. They wanted a greedy profit margin, though. Therefore, they went to the place capable of making the crappy quarter wrench and told us it was a ten dollar wrench. That's why geography matters and why you can't compare 25 cent wrenches. That's why Taiwan (and even the worst US tools) tools are "safe." There's no trash. The worst possible outcome is "ok" because they no longer have pot metal and peasants sitting around.

"Geography doesn't matter, only the retailer's standards do" is a horribly flawed black and white statement ignoring that geography is very important when some countries are so modernized that they are flat-out incapable of producing outright rubbish.

Well we are just going to have to agree to disagree, I can do that without calling people names.

I'll leave you with this though.. You keep claiming that Taiwan is incapable of producing certain price point tools, How does your geography argument play out when comparing a $40 dollar tool produced in Taiwan versus a China produced tool?

 

[monomach]

Well we are just going to have to agree to disagree, I can do that without calling people names.

I'll leave you with this though.. You keep claiming that Taiwan is incapable of producing certain price point tools, How does your geography argument play out when comparing a $40 dollar tool produced in Taiwan versus a China?

1. Show us a modern Taiwanese tool of insulting quality. Something on the same tier as a Durasteel wrench or the worst offerings at Harbor Freight.

2. The geography argument plays out with two tools costing $40 because one is made to lower standards and dumps more money in the retailer's pocket at your expense. Gearwrench's quality certainly didn't get better wen they went to mainland China, but the price also didn't go down for anyone who actually has to use the products.

I still haven't seen a Chinese hand tool that's the same or better quality as a Taiwanese hand tool at the same price point. I'd love for someone to point one out.

Again, China can make that stuff...but they don't. At least not for the people who import it to the states. It makes zero business sense to make a top-tier hand tool over there and ship it here because it's expensive enough to get China to make the same quality as the Taiwan or the US that you might as well just go ahead and get it made in a first-world country.

 

[JDSV]

But... What about a .25 cent wrench from china compared to a .25 cent wrench from Taiwan?

In good fun:

0.25 USD = 7.62 Taiwan New Dollar (TWD)
0.25 USD = 1.53 Chinese Yuan (CNY)
1.53 CNY = 7.57 TWD

I'd say for .25 cents Taiwan is still the way to go.

I'd get just a wee bit more for my money.

 

[Hiball]

1. Show us a modern Taiwanese tool of insulting quality. Something on the same tier as a Durasteel wrench or the worst offerings at Harbor Freight.

2. The geography argument plays out with two tools costing $40 because one is made to lower standards and dumps more money in the retailer's pocket at your expense. Gearwrench's quality certainly didn't get better wen they went to mainland China, but the price also didn't go down for anyone who actually has to use the products.

I still haven't seen a Chinese hand tool that's the same or better quality as a Taiwanese hand tool at the same price point. I'd love for someone to point one out.

Again, China can make that stuff...but they don't. At least not for the people who import it to the states. It makes zero business sense to make a top-tier hand tool over there and ship it here because it's expensive enough to get China to make the same quality as the Taiwan or the US that you might as well just go ahead and get it made in a first-world country.

That is purely speculative... No way anyone here can know the insight from every re-seller, nor the manufacturing specs not possible.. No matter how many times someone types it.

 

[stage20]

back on topic, here is some quick things i put together comparing the ratchets.

kobalt long flex new long composite and new pro 3/8 extra long ratchet.

i feel hf made a mistake. they have 2 long and longer 3/8 ratchets. the shorter version i did not buy, its just an inch short of my kobalt. the long version is longer than my long pattern kobalt. i would have liked to seen a short 3/8 flex for tight areas i guess.

only had 2 coupons so prob go back tomorrow and maybe grab one of the 1/2's. the long 1/2 is really long. 18 or 20 id guess.

mechanisms look exactly the same across the board, though i did not disassemble. my kobalt feels like it has a finer tooth, maybe because its well used? kobalt uses the ball detent like the gearwrench and the hf uses a smooth flex similar to the snap on
i dont have a gearwrench to measure, but the hf is clearly thinner without the quick release by a good bit.

 

[stage20]

all of the extendable ratchets that used to be green were now grey and the guy was putting some new ones out that were red and black. hammers same way. red and black now. so this may be their new color sceme. you guys that want the roto ratchets better grab them because i dont think they clearance them out just for a color change.

 

[Hiball]

back on topic, here is some quick things i put together comparing the ratchets.

kobalt long flex new long composite and new pro 3/8 extra long ratchet.

i feel hf made a mistake. they have 2 long and longer 3/8 ratchets. the shorter version i did not buy, its just an inch short of my kobalt. the long version is longer than my long pattern kobalt. i would have liked to seen a short 3/8 flex for tight areas i guess.

only had 2 coupons so prob go back tomorrow and maybe grab one of the 1/2's. the long 1/2 is really long. 18 or 20 id guess.

mechanisms look exactly the same across the board, though i did not disassemble. my kobalt feels like it has a finer tooth, maybe because its well used? kobalt uses the ball detent like the gearwrench and the hf uses a smooth flex similar to the snap on
i dont have a gearwrench to measure, but the hf is clearly thinner without the quick release by a good bit.

Is the flex tension adjustable?

 

[Ratsofftoya]

Thank God!!! I wasted the time it took to get through 10 pages to finally see some front and back pics of these ratchets! Thank you sir!

 

[Hiball]

Thank God!!! I wasted the time it took to get through 10 pages to finally see some front and back pics of these ratchets! Thank you sir!

I gave you a preliminary picture of the ratchet mechanism on the 1st page..

 

[monomach]

That is purely speculative... No way anyone here can know the insight from every re-seller, nor the manufacturing specs not possible.. No matter how many times someone types it.

All you have to do to disprove it is show us a Chinese tool and a Taiwanese tool of the same quality that are the same price.

 

[MagnumForce]

The COMPANIES goto China to make a cheaper tool... Why would GearWrench or Stanley go from Taiwan to China? For more profit, right? How do they make the tool cheaper in China for more profit?????? Quality is bound to go down. SURE, IF China was paid and demanded the same from said company they quality would be parallel, but cheapening things usually means slips in quality. From my 'experience', thus far.... The Taiwan tools are better regardless of brand, so the companies make them cheaper and not as well in China by my use observations.

My house in rural northwest Ohio cost me 120 K, if I moved my house to LA it would be worth 750k, it would lose no quality, the cost associated with having that house in a different location would simply increase. Same difference what you say is a difference.

 

[Hiball]

All you have to do to disprove it is show us a Chinese tool and a Taiwanese tool of the same quality that are the same price.

Why is the burden on Me? Since you have all the manufacturing specs and profit margin info you should be able to easily find something.

 

[Loscaldazar]

Is the flex tension adjustable?

From the third photo it looks like a torx screw on the flex portion, which generally means the tension is adjustable.

Is it bad that I actually really, really, really want to buy these? That 72T mechanism is a dream when lubricated, and they are so cheap.... good for the car tool kit....

 

[monomach]

Why is the burden on Me? Since you have all the manufacturing specs and profit margin info you should be able to easily find something.

The burden of proof must always fall on the person who claimed something exists. Same as with bigfoot or unicorns.

Is the flex tension adjustable?

The flexes and rotos they have now have tension screws, so that seems probable.

 

[MagnumForce]

His statements about Sears being greedy when they are bleeding money are hilarious. Also the lobster claw rps which ceased to exist a year ago.

 

[MagnumForce]

Also comparing the manufacturing capabilities of a country 20 times larger than another is funny, of course there will be a larger range of quality options from top to bottom in the same country. Again I have some USA Allen stuff that is new and absolute complete ****.

 

[monomach]

His statements about Sears being greedy when they are bleeding money are hilarious. Also the lobster claw rps which ceased to exist a year ago.

Sears is bleeding money. Craftsman has never bled money. Sears is a heck of a lot more than the tool department, which does just fine. In fact, most of the bleeding comes from what the CEO has done to shift Sears equity into his own bank account.

...and lobster claws no longer exist, but my argument is only wrong if they didn't. Are you ready to say that everyone just imagined them and that all of the pictures are doctored? Are you going to contend that Craftsman China quality is equal to or better than Craftsman US to explain the higher prices? We know how much you love the Craftsman name and the crazy lengths you'll go to to prop it up, but even you wouldn't do that.

 

[stage20]

From the third photo it looks like a torx screw on the flex portion, which generally means the tension is adjustable.

Is it bad that I actually really, really, really want to buy these? That 72T mechanism is a dream when lubricated, and they are so cheap.... good for the car tool kit....

is superlube good for these or some other sauce?
i need to open them up and give them a coat.

 

[BirdMobile]

I may go buy the composite ratchet. I suspect it is made in Taiwan... which in my experience means quality COMPANY, as Hiball helped point out I don't have a composite ratchet, so as a tool nut, the 13 bucks will be a good buy for something new, and fairly unavailable in other brands....

It is made in Taiwan, I verified that about 25 posts ago. Not that anyone would notice, with this retarded China vs. Taiwan argument going on. I thought this was the "new harbor freight pro ratchets" thread, not the "387th iteration of tge China vs. Taiwan" thread.

 

[monomach]

is superlube good for these or some other sauce?
i need to open them up and give them a coat.

I've had good results with Superlube if I use the right amount. Err on the side of caution with it. If you use too much, you're going to have a bad time.