New SawStop Competitor?

[JoeH]

To begin, I'm entirely unaffiliated with this company, and in no way am I endorsing it.

I'm just a guy who has been expecting some competing safety tech to make its way to market, eventually, and this just hit my radar. They claim it can be retrofitted to "most" saws in an hour or two, uses a mechanism that is not destructive to the saw bade, and is triggered by proximity rather than contact. These seem like attractive features, but the devil is in the details - I don't want to burn through cartridges when my hand is safely on a push block cutting a dado, say.

Anyone familiar with the company or the tech here? Any thoughts?

Edit: Turns out I only have 3 posts vs the requisite 5 for link-posting (I'm a long-time lurker who sadly doesn't have a lot of knowledge to contribute to this community due to my youth/inexperience). Just google "saw shield" or check out getsawshield dot com.

 

[neophyte]

There were patents for both proximity, and capacitive safety switches for power tools hoing back several or more years before Steve Gass filed his first patents for his Sawstop system, or even started working on it.

 

[JoeH]

There were patents for both proximity, and capacitive safety switches for power tools hoing back several or more years before Steve Gass filed his first patents for his Sawstop system, or even started working on it.

Wow, I didn't realize that. I have several friends who will not consider owning a table saw that doesn't have this feature, and I will admit that they have influenced me somewhat on the issue. On the one hand, I feel like I should be able to operate a saw safely through procedure and good sense. On the other hand... we all make mistakes, and living without a portion of my hand is a consequence I don't like thinking about. Thanks for sharing this info.

 

[Kscardsfan]

As I recall there was a similar concept brought up by Bosch that got shut down in court.

 

[juddspaintballs]

I thought the Saw Stop patent was expiring soon. I could use a better table saw and I've looked hard at buying a Saw Stop saw. They seem to be good saws, safety feature aside. For the price and amount of table saw work I'm doing right now, I'm going to wait, but when I want another saw I'm getting either a Saw Stop or whatever other good competition is out by then.

 

[neophyte]

As I recall there was a similar concept brought up by Bosch that got shut down in court.

The Bosch Reaxx saw got banned for import by the US Trade Commission if I recall correctly.
Several of Sawstop’s patent claims got thrown out due to the Bosch Sawstop lawsuit as well though.
The Bosch Reaxx saw is still sold in Canada, and maybe other markets.

 

[neophyte]

Wow, I didn't realize that. I have several friends who will not consider owning a table saw that doesn't have this feature, and I will admit that they have influenced me somewhat on the issue. On the one hand, I feel like I should be able to operate a saw safely through procedure and good sense. On the other hand... we all make mistakes, and living without a portion of my hand is a consequence I don't like thinking about. Thanks for sharing this info.

Maybe look into overhead blade guards.

Also,
Radial Arm saws are considered unsafe, yet every Home Depot likely has one.
Does Home Depot seem like the kind of store that hires ultra well trained professions?

 

[Robinson1]

Maybe look into overhead blade guards.

Also,
Radial Arm saws are considered unsafe, yet every Home Depot likely has one.
Does Home Depot seem like the kind of store that hires ultra well trained professions?

Radial arm saw and panel saws are not the same. Ive never seen anything but panel saws around big box store lumber yards and honestly its rare to see a radial arm saw even in a small shop setting these days

 

[Kscardsfan]

Maybe look into overhead blade guards.

Also,
Radial Arm saws are considered unsafe, yet every Home Depot likely has one.
Does Home Depot seem like the kind of store that hires ultra well trained professions?

I haven’t seen a new radial arm saw for sale in years.

 

[neophyte]

Radial arm saw and panel saws are not the same. Ive never seen anything but panel saws around big box store lumber yards and honestly its rare to see a radial arm saw even in a small shop setting these days

I was just at my local Home Depot.
They have a panel saw.
And
They have a Radial Arm Saw.
The radial arm saw was made by The Original Saw Company, which is the company formed by managers from the original Dewalt Company after Black and Decker bought Dewalt and decided to discontinue manufacturing radial arm saws.
The Original Saw Company still manufactures radial arm saws.
I don’t know how old the saw at Home Depot was, but it looked pretty new judging by the paint etc.

 

[Ign]

Wow, I didn't realize that. I have several friends who will not consider owning a table saw that doesn't have this feature, and I will admit that they have influenced me somewhat on the issue. On the one hand, I feel like I should be able to operate a saw safely through procedure and good sense. On the other hand... we all make mistakes, and living without a portion of my hand is a consequence I don't like thinking about. Thanks for sharing this info.

And you should have that choice. The problem is Gass was trying to convince the CPSC his tech should be MANDATORY on all table saws sold in the US...'cause I mean he's such a good guy and all -- ya know concerned about you keeping your fingers.

Thing is he wasn't making his tech freeware...so it'd be a HUGE payday if every saw manufacturer had to license his tech to legally produce a table saw to be sold here.

Now... just follow me (and common sense) down this slippery slope....if we can make people safer with this approach, why stop there? We'd have to be cold-blooded murdering bastards if we didn't also require it on hand held circular saws. And then angle grinders. And then reciprocating saws. And then chain saws. And then lathes. And then milling machines. And then.....And then...And then....

I'm all for inventors making money. I'm all for consumer choices. I'm not in favor of government requirements to keep us "safe".....same reason I think every new car should have an option of a backup camera if that's what the purchaser wants (but our government has removed that option)

Beyond that there's an inherent conflict of interest when the patent holder is not releasing their patent to the public domain but asking a GOVERNING BODY to REQUIRE everyone to be subject to that patent if they want a new table saw. I'm sure he'd only charge a "nominal fee" of course.

 

[dalepres]

And you should have that choice. The problem is Gass was trying to convince the CPSC his tech should be MANDATORY on all table saws sold in the US...'cause I mean he's such a good guy and all -- ya know concerned about you keeping your fingers.

Thing is he wasn't making his tech freeware...so it'd be a HUGE payday if every saw manufacturer had to license his tech to legally produce a table saw to be sold here.

Now... just follow me (and common sense) down this slippery slope....if we can make people safer with this approach, why stop there? We'd have to be cold-blooded murdering bastards if we didn't also require it on hand held circular saws. And then angle grinders. And then reciprocating saws. And then chain saws. And then lathes. And then milling machines. And then.....And then...And then....

I'm all for inventors making money. I'm all for consumer choices. I'm not in favor of government requirements to keep us "safe".....same reason I think every new car should have an option of a backup camera if that's what the purchaser wants (but our government has removed that option)

Beyond that there's an inherent conflict of interest when the patent holder is not releasing their patent to the public domain but asking a GOVERNING BODY to REQUIRE everyone to be subject to that patent if they want a new table saw. I'm sure he'd only charge a "nominal fee" of course.

Makes me think of the Epi Pen scandal.

 

[gsmith22]

far more interested in the OP's getsawshield option for table and bandsaw safety then rehashing old tropes about Gass and his misguided business decisions with Sawstop.

Anyone try the product the OP is talking about?

 

[Grant Gunderson]

far more interested in the OP's getsawshield option for table and bandsaw safety then rehashing old tropes about Gass and his misguided business decisions with Sawstop.

Anyone try the product the OP is talking about?

Looks like it’s a preorder only at this point. I’m tempted but not a fan of paying for a product that’s not yet in existence without seeing an independent review of it.

 

[RKA]

I don’t know, I feel like I’m watching Shark Tank perusing their website. Given it’s not in production yet, I would keep an eye on it. I think you hit on the big problem, accidental activations with the proximity sensor. These sensors are $50-70 a piece, and I can definitely foresee more accidental activations with this type of device. And the price of the device is nothing to sneeze at. $700 retail for the table saw, but act now and you can get 50% off! (Pardon my sarcasm, but those numbers were advertised on their site)

 

[Showkey]

Saw Stop may have made a huge mistake.........they could have licensed the stop feature and every saw ( table, miter, radial) made would have had their featured stop technology.

Instead they stood firm, priced the license high, made very expensive saw and the market moved on and more people got hurt.

 

[Wyoming09]

I haven’t seen a new radial arm saw for sale in years.

https://www.woodcraft.com/search?q=radial+arm&button=search



They are out there but DAMN!!

 

[Spacey_G]

I haven’t seen a new radial arm saw for sale in years.

I think he was referring to the saw they have set up in the lumber aisle that employees use to make cuts for customers. The HD near me has a panel saw and RAS for this purpose.

 

[Voi]

https://www.woodcraft.com/search?q=radial+arm&button=search

They are out there but DAMN!!

A friend of mine has an Italian made RAS with 24" cross cut capacity. Maybe a Maggi.

It is one sweet machine. He bought it used at a going out of business auction but I think the price new was well north of $10K.

 

[cgv69]

As usual, I'm the odd ball but what I would like is a Sawstop cabinet saw WITHOUT the blade stop safety mechanism!

There have been countless debates online about the need, worth, usability, reliability etc. of the Sawstop blade stop safety and I'm not going to rehash any of it or even bother discussing it. if you like it or think its the best thing since sliced bed, great but the point is I don't care for it and would prefer a saw without it.

So just shut up and buy a different saw right? True but the shame of it is... ignoring the blade stop safety, I think SS makes the best US style cabinet saw on the market. I love everything else about it but can't get past that one feature that everybody else seems to love

 

[loganb]

Saw Stop may have made a huge mistake.........they could have licensed the stop feature and every saw ( table, miter, radial) made would have had their featured stop technology.

Instead they stood firm, priced the license high, made very expensive saw and the market moved on and more people got hurt.

I'm out of date on the exact details...but my understanding is he initially tried to license the tech to the major manufacturers and they all said no so he went out and built it himself.

I have no data to backup how much he wanted for the licensing side and I'm sure the major brands all slapped it down as they thought it was too expensive and didn't want to pay some upstart group money. Its a rather common story across the last century or two of small inventors vs the big established companies. Not taking sides just saying its not new or unique to this particular situation

There are some other options out there now on high end, professional equipment using different technology that don't infringe on the patents, but thats mostly on $10k+ saws.

Sent from The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[Dumber than lumber]

getsawshield
?????????
Where are you guys seeing that? I think maybe the OP edited his post to remove that.
Or is there a new feature on GJ?

 

[neophyte]

I'm out of date on the exact details...but my understanding is he initially tried to license the tech to the major manufacturers and they all said no so he went out and built it himself.

I have no data to backup how much he wanted for the licensing side and I'm sure the major brands all slapped it down as they thought it was too expensive and didn't want to pay some upstart group money. Its a rather common story across the last century or two of small inventors vs the big established companies. Not taking sides just saying its not new or unique to this particular situation

There are some other options out there now on high end, professional equipment using different technology that don't infringe on the patents, but thats mostly on $10k+ saws.

Sent from The Garage Journal mobile app

He did try to license it to various manufacturers, including Black & Decker and Ryobi from what I recall.
B&D from what I recall, tested a prototype, and found that the mechanism was false tripping on certain construction materials like pressure treated lumber.
Gass, the “inventor”, tried to fix the issue, but couldn’t.
Gass then hired a separate engineer, who I think specialized in Capacitance, but that engineer couldn’t fix the problem/s either.
Gass then sued the engineer he hired.
Gass also wouldn’t self indemnify the technology, meaning the manufacturers would be on the hook in case of injuries,
And Gass wanted a very hire royalty, based on the list retail sale price of the saws, which may have left Gass earning way more per saw than retailers or maybe even the manufacturers.
There’s more, but basically there was heavy reason for the manufacturers to walk away from Gass, even before you consider the argument that the “SawStop Technology” would have made any older saw be considered inherently unsafe.

 

[Showkey]

https://www.woodcraft.com/search?q=radial+arm&button=search



They are out there but DAMN!!

A friend of mine has an Italian made RAS with 24" cross cut capacity. Maybe a Maggi.

It is one sweet machine. He bought it used at a going out of business auction but I think the price new was well north of $10K.

Think sales have been close to zero in the last 10-15 years.........you can’t give them always at garage sales. RA saw serve no useful purpose with a the invention of the compound sliding miter saw.

I sold my recalled RA saw back to Sears/Emerson a few years back for $100 and was happy to see it leave. Owned it for over 30 years, it “saw” very little use in the last 10 years.

 

[neophyte]

Think sales have been close to zero in the last 10-15 years.........you can’t give them always at garage sales. RA saw serve no useful purpose with a the invention of the compound sliding miter saw.

I sold my recalled RA saw back to Sears/Emerson a few years back for $100 and was happy to see it leave. Owned it for over 30 years, it “saw” very little use in the last 10 years.

Radial arm saws, particularly the older ones from manufacturers like Dewalt, were very sturdily built.
Most modern compound miter saws seem like cheap sh:t in comparison.
While miter saws have a purpose, particularly on a jobsite or when doing work where you might have to move the saw around a lot,
A radial arm saw left in a fixed location is likely going to be far better for certain tasks, hence the reason companies like Home Depot still use them.

 

[humpty]

The scene shop in our theater department bought an OMGA radial arm saw, it is super bada$$!

I used it to square off my workbench I built, which was 2.5" thick oak butcher block and 30" deep. You would have never known it was cutting oak. I thought I would use it as a rough cut but it cut so nice that I used it as my finish cut.

humpty

 

[Spacey_G]

So just shut up and buy a different saw right? True but the shame of it is... ignoring the blade stop safety, I think SS makes the best US style cabinet saw on the market. I love everything else about it but can't get past that one feature that everybody else seems to love

What do you like better about the SS than say a PM2000 or Unisaw?

 

[kenc184]

As usual, I'm the odd ball but what I would like is a Sawstop cabinet saw WITHOUT the blade stop safety mechanism!

Why would anyone want a SS without the hot dog mechanism? It's just a fairly well made Chinese table saw otherwise. Who wouldn't prefer a Powermatic, Delta etc?

 

[Bigblockyeti]

I'm all for inventors making money. I'm all for consumer choices. I'm not in favor of government requirements to keep us "safe".....same reason I think every new car should have an option of a backup camera if that's what the purchaser wants (but our government has removed that option)

This x1000000!

I had four Unisaws at one point but I'm down to one because moving something big and heavy is a PITA. I would still have two if I was still in my shop back in OH set up for different operations. They held their value well and I sold three for more than I bought them used, I think many still want a simple saw and understand that it's dangerous. That spinning blade doesn't care if you think personal accountability is oppressive like is trending, it will still efficiently remove your fingers.

I still use my Delta Milwaukee RAS regularly, the carriage isn't nearly as susceptible to deflection as is a slide or glide miter saw. It also has more power and will accept a thick dado stack.

 

[Cruzan80]

Agreed. I find there are people who have only used an Emerson saw (Craftsman recall) and those who have used a Dewalt/Rockwell/etc. Experience is very different. My Rockwell RAS (33-790) can outperform just about sliding compound miter saw out there. It accepts a 12" blade, can mitre almost 180deg (turret arm head), and can bevel past 45deg. Only thing it doesnt do is dual bevel (but technically I can rotate past horizontal to the other side if I really needed to). And motor is strong enough I can run a router bit on the other end of the motor if I need to for an overarm router in a pinch.

But it doesnt tuck under a bench, and isnt really portable.

Radial arm saws, particularly the older ones from manufacturers like Dewalt, were very sturdily built.
Most modern compound miter saws seem like cheap sh:t in comparison.
While miter saws have a purpose, particularly on a jobsite or when doing work where you might have to move the saw around a lot,
A radial arm saw left in a fixed location is likely going to be far better for certain tasks, hence the reason companies like Home Depot still use them.

Sent from my Phone 2 using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[Kscardsfan]

In a cabinet shop or someplace similar they make sense. In the days before portable sliding mitre saws they made sense. They’re just clunky relics for most of the DIY crowd and contractors now. I’ve turned down three free, or nearly free, RAS in the last 4-5 years just over the fact they’re heavy as hell and damn near impossible to store in a garage like I work out of most days.

 

[cgv69]

What do you like better about the SS than say a PM2000 or Unisaw?

Why would anyone want a SS without the hot dog mechanism? It's just a fairly well made Chinese table saw otherwise. Who wouldn't prefer a Powermatic, Delta etc?

I want what works for me and the way I work. Not what the manufacture or Internet thinks I should.

One of the issues I have with all 3 current options (SS, PM and Delta) is I prefer a right tilt saw blade. I almost never make beveled rip cuts but I do use a dado stack often. On a right tilt saw, when you put your dado stack in, the numbers on the fence stay true. On a left tilt saw you have to measure each time you need to move the fence.

The dado stack is 1 of the biggest reasons I don't like the SS's blade stop feature because to use a Dado stack in the SS saw, you have to install a different module. I'm not going to swap modules back and forth every time I want to make a dado and the idea that I need to change the way I make dado's because my $3k+ saw makes using my $200 dado stack useless is complete BS IMO.

What I do like about the SS saw is the dust collection which seems to work better then the other saws? Another thing (minor as it may be), I like the 36" fence option on the SS (everybody else does 30"). My current saw has a 30" fence and yes, there have been times when those 6 extra inches would have been helpful.

The left tilting blade and fence length options are my only issues with the PM. Not sure how well DC works on the newer PM's but that could be a concern as well? I like and own older US made Delta equipment but would not buy anything with their name on it made in the last 10 years or so.

I would love to find an older US made right tilt Unisaw in the right price/condition and if I did, I would even consider getting the SS saw as well and would use the Unisaw for dado work and the SS for everything else.

 

[slowtwitch73]

Just buy a SS, forget about the safety feature, and use it.

When it saves your hand, consider it a lucky coincidence.

 

[mbatarga]

.

There’s more, but basically there was heavy reason for the manufacturers to walk away from Gass, even before you consider the argument that the “SawStop Technology” would have made any older saw be considered inherently unsafe.

If Delta or some other mfr implemented the SS technology on a new saw model that would open up liability to every other saw they make where they did not add that feature. Thanks to the US tort system mindset.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[slowtwitch73]

That's the rub with the arguments for 'choice, gov't off my back' etc.

They are silent about all the cases brought against companies by guys who cut off their fingers and then sue someone. We all pay higher prices for those guys because you can bet your rear the companies build litigation/settlement costs into their products.

 

[gsmith22]

they sure do. its known as insurance premiums and you better believe that some % of the overhead cost of having and maintaining insurance is built into every product.

 

[neophyte]

Just buy a SS, forget about the safety feature, and use it.

When it saves your hand, consider it a lucky coincidence.

If uou forget about the safety system on the Sawstop,
you might accidentally trip the saw on wet wood,
or pressure treated wood,
or foil coated wood,
and wind up destroying the aluminum safety break and a saw blade,
Costing you $150 plus to replace those items.

 

[slowtwitch73]

If uou forget about the safety system on the Sawstop,
you might accidentally trip the saw on wet wood,
or pressure treated wood,
or foil coated wood,
and wind up destroying the aluminum safety break and a saw blade,
Costing you $150 plus to replace those items.

The system is easily bypassed.

 

[CTyankee]

Just buy a SS, forget about the safety feature, and use it.

When it saves your hand, consider it a lucky coincidence.

If uou forget about the safety system on the Sawstop,
you might accidentally trip the saw on wet wood,
or pressure treated wood,
or foil coated wood,
and wind up destroying the aluminum safety break and a saw blade,
Costing you $150 plus to replace those items.

The system is easily bypassed.

The 1st and 3rd post here are kind of contradicting aren't they?

 

[neophyte]

The system is easily bypassed.

Doesn’t the system have to be bypassed every time you turn on the saw?