New Subpanel - Where is neutral?

[mountainman72]

Hello all,

I've brought service wire to the subpanel in our garage. Unlike my other panel, this subpanel only has three places to connect service wire - hot 1, hot 2, and a neutral or ground bus bar. I've connected the two hots, and the ground to this other bar. Perhaps this is not where the ground should be connected? Either way, I don't see a 4th spot. Any help appreciated; photo below.

Thanks, Brett

 

[CoopVA]

It looks to me like you have the ground connected were the neutral should go. You need to purchase the ground bar separately... It does not come with the panels...


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[pattenp]

The neutral connects to the bars in the panel and those bars should not be grounded to the panel. You need to add a ground bar kit.

 

[sublimate]

Can you remove the strip across the top to isolate the two bars, and use one for ground and the other for neutral?

 

[scoob8000]

Can you remove the strip across the top to isolate the two bars, and use one for ground and the other for neutral?

This is what I'm thinking too. That strap should come off to "unbond" the neutral and ground bars.

Is this subpanel in the same building that your service comes into, or an detached building?

 

[CNGsaves]

^ ^ +1 . . . This a Detached Garage . . . . . or Attached Garage ??

 

[toplessHO]

what sizes are the wires
that one conductor looks like the identified conductor (neutral)

I would think that the ground would be smaller and green.

 

[pattenp]

Can you remove the strip across the top to isolate the two bars, and use one for ground and the other for neutral?

Well.. you can do that, but it's not a recommended practice from the manufacturer. That's why the ground bar is an add-on kit to isolate the neutral.

 

[pattenp]

If this is the main panel in the detached garage you built it should have been a main breaker panel.

 

[laser3kw]

a question for my own education:
I understand it is a subpanel, but shouldn't it have a "main breaker"?
I know it is fed from a panel and a breaker on that panel. I would think for convenience, at the least, a "main breaker" would be useful.

 

[thewatusi]

If you're putting in more than 6 breakers it must have a main breaker shutoff.

 

[sublimate]

If you're putting in more than 6 breakers it must have a main breaker shutoff.

Only if it's in a separate structure from the main.

 

[pattenp]

If you're putting in more than 6 breakers it must have a main breaker shutoff.

Only if it's in a detached structure. If the sub-panel is in the same structure as the main service panel the sub-panel can be a main lug panel without a main breaker.

Edit: sublimate beat me to the punch.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

The small holes in vertical rows punched in the back of the "can" on the left and right sides are the pre punched holes for the ground bars. They should come with self tapping machine thread screws that have a small v notch cut into the side of the screw tip, to cut threads in the holes as they go through. This will bond the ground bars to the metal of the "can" and you will need a larger lug to piggy back on the ground bar(s) to connect the larger wire. Use two ground bars to save running wires all the way down and around the inside of the panel to reach a ground that is attached to only one side of the can.

Charles

 

[mountainman72]

Wow. This forum is incredible. I posted this question just a little bit ago and I already have a bank of educated responses. Thank you.

Ok - so I need to purchase a separate grounding bar, and I currently have the ground on the neutral bar. Will switch that out.

It is a detached garage. So it looks like I will need a main breaker shutoff here too.

Thanks so much, Brett

 

[theoldwizard1]

If this is the main panel in the detached garage you built it should have been a main breaker panel.

Good catch !

 

[theoldwizard1]

Ok - so I need to purchase a separate grounding bar, and I currently have the ground on the neutral bar. Will switch that out.

So where IS your neutral wire ? Green marker is definitely for ground. White for neutral (there are some cases where a white marker is not mandatory).

It is a detached garage. So it looks like I will need a main breaker shutoff here too.

Not all breaker panels can be upgraded to have a min breaker. You may have to buy a new panel.

 

[ishiboo]

Not all breaker panels can be upgraded to have a min breaker. You may have to buy a new panel.

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but can't you use a breaker in any position as the "feed" for this panel, which satisfies the >6 disconnect requirement?

A ground bar is definitely necessary. Appears the green grounding screw is already removed. Don't disconnect the strap.

 

[pattenp]

Yes the panel can be back fed through a breaker.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Ok - so I need to purchase a separate grounding bar, and I currently have the ground on the neutral bar. Will switch that out.

Buy two, put one on each side of the panel. You will appreciate that when you start to wire it up.

What you are calling a ground appears to be a white striped wire, which would identify a neutral. What does your ground look like?

You do not need specifically, a main "breaker" but you must have a main disconnect. It could be a large switch (properly rated for the amperage) on the inside or outside of the building that your feeder to the panel passes thru. Of course the easy solution is probably to add a main breaker kit to the panel. Second easiest is to add a double pole breaker of the appropriate capacity (100 amp???) to the top right or left position of the panel and connect your feeder wires to the breaker, in which case NOTHING should be attached to the two lugs supplying the bus bars. This breaker will require a main breaker hold down kit the panel manufacturer sells to do just this. It makes the breaker difficult to remove..... preventing accidental removal of the breaker.

Charles

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ok so weve established that this is a detached garage but what we dont know is whether the garage is being fed from another panel or does it have its own service. If own service, then is there a disconnect ahead of this panel? If not, then 3-wire feed is ok with bonded neutral BUT the panel needs a main breaker or disconnect. If instead, it is fed from another panel, then the feeder needs to be 4-wire.

Since the structure is detached, ground rods are also needed!

It looks like the wire u used is URD, which isnt allowed inside structures. URD has a yellow stripe...

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but can't you use a breaker in any position as the "feed" for this panel, which satisfies the >6 disconnect requirement?

A ground bar is definitely necessary. Appears the green grounding screw is already removed. Don't disconnect the strap.

Its called a backfed main and requires a retention screw/kit...

EDIT: pattenp beat me to it...

 

[CNGsaves]

Also detached garage requires it's own 2 ground rods, AND must be 4 wire from main panel to subpanel.

OP needs to tell us basics of:
a) What Amp feed from main panel (ie what breaker upstream)
b) Distance from main panel to subpanel
c) What WIRE used (size & copper/aluminum)
d) Expected loads in detached garage running on subpanel

Sparky's will be able to give best advice if they know the whole story.

 

[Norcal]

A breaker can be backfed for a main if it has the proper hold down kit.

 

[mountainman72]

Also detached garage requires it's own 2 ground rods, AND must be 4 wire from main panel to subpanel.

OP needs to tell us basics of:
a) What Amp feed from main panel (ie what breaker upstream)
b) Distance from main panel to subpanel
c) What WIRE used (size & copper/aluminum)
d) Expected loads in detached garage running on subpanel

Sparky's will be able to give best advice if they know the whole story.

Ok - lot's of good info coming my way - thank you. Here are my answers to above:

a) no separate service; this is fed from the 200 amp house panel via a 100 amp breaker
b) 60 feet from main panel
c) URD-AL-R-Neut-3/2-4/1 **** (this off the electric supply receipt)
d) 60 amps max, with welder, lights, and fans running

Thanks, Brett

 

[wyliesdiesels]

How many conductors does it have? Looks like 3...Does it enter the structure? URD isnt permitted inside a building. Also, #2 AL is limited to 90a for this application!

 

[JohnX14]

"URD" is often dual rated as USE and RHW allowing it to be in the building.

 

[justsam]

c) URD-AL-R-Neut-3/2-4/1 **** (this off the electric supply receipt)
Thanks, Brett

From this description, you have three 2 gauge aluminum conductors, and one 4 gauge ground conductor. Your picture shows the three 2 gauge, properly connected, where is the 4 gauge ground?

As stated by others, add the ground bar kit, and terminate the bare ground conductor to it. Make sure the neutral bar is not grounded to the metal enclosure. Provide ground rods, tie them to the ground bar. At the end feeding this subpanel, how is the bare ground conductor terminated?

 

[pattenp]

"URD" is often dual rated as USE and RHW allowing it to be in the building.

It is rare that a secondary UD cable carries a RHW rating. Mobile Home Feeder (MHF) is the most common direct bury cable that also carries the RHW rating. When looking at URD listed cable you need to make sure of the markings as to whether it's allowed to be run inside of the structure. If it carries just a USE type then it's not allowed inside.

Edit: If it has the code name "****", you have the wrong wire to be inside the house and garage.

EDIT Edit: I see there are some manufacturers that have code name "****" wire that has the RHH/RHW rating, one is Cerrowire. My experience has been "****" URD has only been USE-2 only. Live and learn and things change.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

It is rare that a secondary UD cable carries a RHW rating. Mobile Home Feeder (MHF) is the most common direct bury cable that also carries the RHW rating. When looking at URD listed cable you need to make sure of the markings as to whether it's allowed to be run inside of the structure. If it carries just a USE type then it's not allowed inside.

Edit: If it has the code name "****", you have the wrong wire to be inside the house and garage.

Lets clairify....... If it ONLY says USE on it, then its not allowed inside. If its ONLY a URD cable (Not discussed in the code) then its not allowed inside. If its a Multi-rated wire, then its allowed where and used for whatever, the code allows for ANY of the ratings on it. Mobile Home Feeder is the name given to a wire that is multi-rated with at least a couple of different ratings, and can be used inside. (code doesn't use the term MHF either).

Pic is an example of MHF markings.

Note that if the ground wire in the bundle is yellow, it usually is URD ONLY and not multi-rated.

Pic is of MHF and is allowed inside the building because of the RHH/RHW rating on the wire. It is allowed to be direct buried because of the USE-2 rating.

Charles

 

[scoob8000]

Lets clairify....... If it ONLY says USE on it, then its not allowed inside.

Does this hold true if it were run in conduit?

I'm eventually going to be in a similar boat once I wire my garage. I had all intentions on direct burrying 2-2-2-4 mhf up to a conduit I have poping up thru the floor and extending the conduit run to the panel.

(sorry for the thread hijack)

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Does this hold true if it were run in conduit?

I'm eventually going to be in a similar boat once I wire my garage. I had all intentions on direct burrying 2-2-2-4 mhf up to a conduit I have poping up thru the floor and extending the conduit run to the panel.

(sorry for the thread hijack)

Yes. Because conduit doesnt change fire resistant properties or lack there of, of the insulation of the wire.

If the wire doesnt have the RHW/RHH rating, regardless of conduit being used, it CANNOT be used inside!

 

[mountainman72]

Hello,

Thanks for all of the feedback. I picked up the ground bars and will get that straightened out soon. It is 17 degrees out right now, so I'm not working in the unheated garage tonight. The yellow/green striped wire does say neutral on it. While I can't see much of the wire now because it is all in conduit, I can clearly make out the word '****'. So if Pattenp is correct, I have the wrong wire.

I'm a little surprised only because this is the wire a licensed commercial/residential electrician told me to buy. I will contact my local inspector and see how to proceed.

Thanks guys, Brett

 

[pattenp]

Does this hold true if it were run in conduit?

I'm eventually going to be in a similar boat once I wire my garage. I had all intentions on direct burrying 2-2-2-4 mhf up to a conduit I have poping up thru the floor and extending the conduit run to the panel.

(sorry for the thread hijack)

MHF can be installed inside and has to be in conduit because of being inside. It's allowed inside because it has the RHH/RHW rating.

 

[pattenp]

Hello,

Thanks for all of the feedback. I picked up the ground bars and will get that straightened out soon. It is 17 degrees out right now, so I'm not working in the unheated garage tonight. The yellow/green striped wire does say neutral on it. While I can't see much of the wire now because it is all in conduit, I can clearly make out the word '****'. So if Pattenp is correct, I have the wrong wire.

I'm a little surprised only because this is the wire a licensed commercial/residential electrician told me to buy. I will contact my local inspector and see how to proceed.

Thanks guys, Brett

You can terminate the **** outside via a large junction box and switch to SER for entry into the building.

Edit: You really need to get to a part of the cable that you can read the full ratings on the insulation to be absolutely sure of what you have. Do you know the brand? Southwire, Cerrowire. I beleive Cerro does have **** wire that has the RHH/RHW rating. So all may not be lost. I need to say now that not all "Dykes" are created equal.

*

 

[theoldwizard1]

Quick segue - What is "****" wire/cable ? It is not listed in any documents I can find as an NEC cable type.

 

[pattenp]

Another tidbit of info about URD. You will see the cable is made up of black conductors with one having a yellow stripe. Technically this cable is designed to be power distribution from utility to meter base. The yellow striped wire is the neutral and the blacks are the phase conductors. Mobile home feeder on the other hand has black phase conductors, white striped neutral and green ground. The give away on the URD is there is no specified ground conductor.

 

[pattenp]

Quick segue - What is "****" wire/cable ? It is not listed in any documents I can find as an NEC cable type.

**** is a manufacturer code name for the size and type of cable.

Look at the size chart...... You'll also see the cable is only USE rated.
http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet51


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[CNGsaves]

So a "****" is a certain SIZE and TYPE ??? . . . .

 

[toplessHO]

where did you buy the wire from?
go back and ask to read the specs while on the reel

 

[pattenp]

So a "****" is a certain SIZE and TYPE ??? . . . .

I was wondering how long it would take someone to go that direction.