New trailer Project. 25 ft utility trailer!!

[sofob0909]

Hey guys.

I just picked up a new project for haulingmy stuff around.( my AMF Surtreks and future vehicles, tractors, yard stuff, furniture. What ever.



I figured i would ask a few questions and try to see what I should include in my plans.

Specs:
21.6 foot deck length
5'8" from outer C channel to outer C channel
7'8" to outer supports

5 lug wheels
5000# as stated on camper title.
2 5/16 ball
electric brakes!!

question 1: Deck?

I want to use wood. (metal will be to heavy, hot in sun, just not what i want to use.) i have heard that white oak is a good wood for trailer decks. i am going to add some cross braces to make the 18" on center (currently 36" on center)
Did some calculations and 6/4 seems like it will hold up well. (about 1mm deflection with 750#)

Wanted to see where i can get this wood and what it will cost???
im in Delaware and travel to Charlotte NC for school so anywhere in this area.

question 2: cross members?

the frame needs to be beefed up as it has lost alot of strength without the camper. I am adding cross braces to help with this. my questions is should i use the same materials that are there (angle) for these new pieces or should i use something beefer? i am planning on adding 10 more cross members to make it 18 on center.


The trailer was a camper trailer. tandem axles 4 wheel drum brakes.

Im sure ill come up with more as i go but lets start with that.



Also whatever features you think i shoudl add would be helpful.

I plan on having plenty of strap hook places
possibly removable stake sides
a winch
a front tool box.

Thanks

 

[rogsmart]

Pictures?? ya know the before and after. Cause the GJ guys are nuts about project pictures.

 

[KEH]

I assume this is a bumper pull trailer. We need to know the thickness and width of the frame channels. As you stated, campers have a lot of their strength in the body which has been removed. Cross braces don't help much with weight carrying strength. Bringing the spacing up to 18 inches is fine.

Is your deck going to be 7'8" wide or 5'8" wide? Are the axle springs under the wider spacing or under the 5'8" spacing? It will make a difference regarding how to reinforce the frame.

I think you will find a 25 foot trailer too long to manuever easily. Also, the weight of the frame members would have to be too heavy for the wheels you escribe. A 25 foot gooseneck trailer typically has frame rails made of 10 or 12 inch heavy I beam. I think you would be better off to cut the trailer back to 16 or maybe 18'.

On a positive note, I recommend White Oak. It is one of the toughest woods and the pores in the wood are closed and keep out water. Google White Oak wood. I live about 2 hours South of Charlotte and there is plenty of white oak around. Probably it's availiable in Delaware. I recommend 2 x 8 boards. Whatever lumber you get, green, should be dried 3 months plus before using.

KEH

 

[sofob0909]

hey guys. Working on some pics. No after pics yet. Just got it.
I dont want to cut it down as I need 21 feet of deck for my 2 surtreks which are each 10.5 feet long.

The deck wicth has not been determined yet. I need some help seeing how much it will cost more to add the extra two feet. (which would allow this trailer to haul a car. (5'8" isnt wide enough i thinl))

The wheels are just outside the 5'8" C channels. The pictures will help show this KEH

KEH why do you recommend 2x8? will i be able to get the full length or will I have to use shorter that 21 ft pieces? What thickness do you think? 6/4 seems to me like it will be strong enough on 18 centers and wont me to heavy/expensive? How much should I pay for this amount of lumber(both widths)?(I have no experience with buying wood)

working on pics now

 

[juhotrod]

First question, are you a competant welder? Ive been welding for a long time and seen people that do not know what their doing try this. eiter not enough experience or using insuffenciant materials or tools. i.e. a 110v welder for 1/4" and thicker material. more often than not a camper frame will not be able to support the weight of any car larger than say a pinto no matter how many supports you add in because the main frame rails just arnt strong enough.

second question, where are the axles located in the frame? what ratio from front to back 50/50, 60/40? campers axle are strategically placed as are car trailer axles to distrubute the weight evenly. to far forward and they will raise the rear of your truck, to far back and they will lower and stress the rear bumper or hidden hitch.

If you need any help on choosing material thickness or good welder settings and filler metal let me know, should be able to help you with that. as for axle placement search the net theres a site ive seen that gives you a calculator for finding it but cant think of it at the moment. if i come across it ill post it.

jake

 

[sofob0909]

picture is up.

 

[pattenp]

I'm no expert buy any means but it looks scary long to me to be carrying much of a heavy load on.

 

[KEH]

Replies to OP's questions:

There is no reasonable way to get 21 ft lumber. Most sawmills can't handle logs that long and if they could they would charge a lot more for their trouble due to the length and weight. For a 21 foot trailer I would get 12 foot boards and 10 foot boards. Make a cross member of wide enough metal to join the 2 boards end to end and have enough space to drill holes for bolts through the metal.

When I mentioned 2 x 8 I was referring to green, rough lumber. When it dries it will shrink and be at least 1/4 inch thinner and more narrow. Oak lumber 1 1/2 inch thick probably will hold up what you want and be lighter too. You will have to get it specially sawed. I don't remember what the price is likely to be, probably around $.50 a boad foot. A board foot is a cubic measurement representing a board 12' long, 12' wide, and 1' thick. Google Board Foot measurement. Decide the length and width of your trailer and apply formula you find in Google. I'm not good at expressing some math terms, but this will give you the board feet in your deck and you can figure the price of lumber.

Sounds like you are going to have the deck above the wheels. You will have to have it high enough so that the deck will not drag the tires when the deck settles down under load.

Bear in mind that as the height of the deck increases, you will need longer ramps to load a wheeled vehicle.

What is the capicity of the axles? I suspect that they are 3500 pound axles due to the 5 lug wheels, assuming they are 15 inch wheels. You will need to determine the weight of the trailer when built, plus the weight of the load you want to carry, and be sure it dosen't exceed the capacity of the axles and tires. I have an axle to replace on a trailer now due to not knowing the above(well, the axle had some material shortcomings) so this is not an idle question.

KEH

 

[KEH]

Thanks for pic.

It may just be the camera angle, but the tongue looks too short to me, making it too easy to jacknife the trailer when making turns.

The trailer frame looks to be made from light 4 inch channel and is far too weak for a trailer of that length. There are ways to make it stronger but it won't be cheap unless you have a source of cheap or free steel.

What I did to make 4 inch channel strong enough for a 16 foot trailer was to weld a 3/8 by 1 1/2" bar inside the channel and close the open part of the C with 1/4" by 4" flat stock. It has held so far, but I don't think that would be enough for your project.

However, that's not the main problem. You are wanting to make the trailer wider. Your options are to make the frame high enough so that the deck will clear the tires(which would also strengthen the frame) or widen the axles and cut apart the frame and widen it. Cutting apart the frame also involves changing the tongue so it will remain centered.
The axles also look to be exactly centered in the frame, they should be off centered toward the back to keep weight on the truck hitch so it will stay under control when driving.

Re cutting axles and widening them, trailers axles have a bow in the center of the axle so they will be straight when under load. Cutting them in two and lengthing them will change that, possibly causing uneven wear on the tires.

Bear in mind when you are making all these modifications you are manufacturing something and are liable if there is an accident and it can be proved that your modifications caused damage. All in all, I would sell the trailer and look for a used gooseneck that maybe needed a floor and some paint.

KEH

 

[sofob0909]

thanks KEH. I got the trailer for cheap so I am planning on Continuing to work with this frame. I think that if i stay with the current width and possibly add a foot high rail if should add some stiffness to the frame. Also bolting a floor down will add strength.

I am thinking now that hauling a car with this is not going to be a good idea so I am going to stick to just my ATVs, yard ****, and furniture. Thanks for the input.

 

[KEH]

Foot high rail will make a world of difference in stiffness.

One trick to reduce twisting is to use a piece of pipe as a crossmember half way between the rear spring mount and the back of the trailer. Weld the pipe strongly all the way around the ends.

KEH

 

[deranged]

Where are you located? Buy that off of craigslist for 125 bucks?

 

[diggerrick]

more often than not a camper frame will not be able to support the weight of any car larger than say a pinto no matter how many supports you add in because the main frame rails just arnt strong enough.jake

At 5'-8" wide, he won't be putting many cars on it - maybe a rail...

 

[back2class]

I would just scrap it...maybe save the axles. That thing was designed for a box sitting on it. And designed to minimum standards to do that. It will flex, twist, and CRACK with just a light load. ratchet some things tight to it and it will curl and twist worse. The necessary steel will cost a bundle to make it safe for hauling anything but brush or a few small pieces of home furnishings. Putting a car on it would be INSANE. Also, remember it was designed with a 15-20 year lifespan. Think light steel.
I don't want to take the wind out of your sales, but just because it is a deck that rolls does not make it a untility trailer. If you for one moment thought it could haul a car...that tells me your welding this into a safe utility trailer for carying more than a few hundred pounds is well beyond your abilities at this time. This lack of understanding the engineering and materials could easily get someone killed.

Shop around, get a good used landscape trailer for $600. It will cost you at least that in steel to make this even safe for carrying an typical ATV.

 

[d33pt]

that trailer is not going to have enough tongue weight like that. it will tow like **** and sway all over the road. you're going to have to relocate the axles.

 

[Carl B]

If you need any help on choosing material thickness or good welder settings and filler metal let me know, should be able to help you with that. as for axle placement search the net theres a site ive seen that gives you a calculator for finding it but cant think of it at the moment. if i come across it ill post it.

Hi Jake:
Did you find the site with the calculator?

I drug home a project trailer myself yesterday... So was following this discussion with interest.

thanks,
Carl B.

 

[38Chevy454]

You really do need additional lengthwise stiffness. This is best achieved by adding a rail around the perimeter, about 12 inches above the deck. This is much more effective than boxing in the C-channel. Lot easier to do since you are welding on top surfaces. Also gives control over something falling over the edge. Adding more criossmembers is good, but they do not help stiffness over the length. Vertical height equivalent in the main rails is what you want, that is why the added rail higher up is most effective.

Your picture shows the axle approx centered, it needs to be back from the center to pull better. I think the rule is about 10% back, so if your trailer is 25 ft, the axles should be centered 2.5 feet behind the centerline. Longer tongue is nice, but you are already pretty long length with the existing frame.

 

[diggerrick]

How much does a Surtrek weigh?

You'll have to experiment with how far forward it needs to be to get enough tongue weight. I've read that you need 10-15% on the tongue.

I looked under my 20ft deck open trailer, and it looks about like what you have except for a longer tongue. Welding deck plate on top would stiffen it up more than you think, even though you don't want to go that way.

 

[jam0o0]

ok so 5 k axles - 10k
minus trailer weight - 3k? - find out for sure
minus AMF Surtrek - 2k

this is very doable. i think adding rails is the only way you are going to get this thing stiff enough to make up for the camper body being removed. and you HAVE to weight it. i've seen 25footers that weight 7k and another one that looks similar in a thumbnail picture that weighed 4k.

but if they are 3500 alxes - 7k
minus trailer weight - 3k? - find out for sure
minus AMF Surtrek - 2k

this leaves a little room for a winch, camping gear, fuel, ext.

i bet you those tires are past their age limit.

18" between crossmembers should be fine.

if you want to continue this go out to the trailer right now. stand on one rear corner and jump up and down. it should twist some. it should give you an idea of how badly RV's are built.

 

[koditten]

What are these sureteck rigs and what do they weigh? Will this be the only thing that you will be hauling?

If the trailer will never be hauling other things, you can get away with out changing the axle location. You just need the 15% tongue weight. You can get that by loading the trailer the same way every time. As for the axle location calculator, don't waste your time, if the trailer is never going to haul odd loads. Manufacturrers have to take this into account because of the assumption that the trailer will be empty 50% of the time. You can gain extra tongue weight by mounting a spare tire and winch. The winch, spare and battery will give you 100 lbs of weight, give or take.

You will get plenty of ridgidness by building the rail around the parimeter. This is a must. You can gain stiffness by using tube steel for the additional cross members. The 18" centers that you spoke of will work excellent.

I've built several utility trailers out of RV frames. As stated previously, you can't use them to haul cars, but they do work well for light applications. If these sueteck things are lawn mowers, like I think they are, the trailer will work just fine.

I hope other posts haven't discouraged you, it can be done and make sure that you take lots of pictures...we like pictures.

If you have and specific questions please pm me. I have much expirence in this sort of thing.

Thx
kirk

 

[koditten]

I forgot to mention, you can get 20' lumber at menards. I would use 5/4 treated, not the white oak mentioned above. The white oak is the best, but it is overkill for a trailer like this. You want to keep the weight down and white oak will add quite a bit.

 

[Carl B]

Has anyone here used "honeycomb" or "composite sandwich panels" for building the sides or top of an enclosed car hauler or trailer?

I'm looking for materials that are very strong, light weight and which can be worked fairly easily with normal homeowner tools and processes.

thanks,
Carl B.

 

[sofob0909]

Here is what a Surtrek is. They weight about 700#. Also note that i will use this to haul other things like Other toys, furniture, yard equiptment, ext

its over 10 ft long and i have two so I needed a long trailer. they are over 4 ft wide too so they cant be put side by side.

The axles are behind the center line of the bed so with the 4 foot tongue. I know that when i load things i will have to consider tongue weight but i dont think it will be a big problem. The rear tire is 13 ft from the front of the 21 foot deck. the front tire is 10.5 ft from front of deck. both are behind the centerline of the trailer. I think the picture angle makes it look weird

What are these sureteck rigs and what do they weigh? Will this be the only thing that you will be hauling?

If the trailer will never be hauling other things, you can get away with out changing the axle location. You just need the 15% tongue weight. You can get that by loading the trailer the same way every time. As for the axle location calculator, don't waste your time, if the trailer is never going to haul odd loads. Manufacturrers have to take this into account because of the assumption that the trailer will be empty 50% of the time. You can gain extra tongue weight by mounting a spare tire and winch. The winch, spare and battery will give you 100 lbs of weight, give or take.

You will get plenty of ridgidness by building the rail around the parimeter. This is a must. You can gain stiffness by using tube steel for the additional cross members. The 18" centers that you spoke of will work excellent.

I've built several utility trailers out of RV frames. As stated previously, you can't use them to haul cars, but they do work well for light applications. If these sueteck things are lawn mowers, like I think they are, the trailer will work just fine.

I hope other posts haven't discouraged you, it can be done and make sure that you take lots of pictures...we like pictures.

If you have and specific questions please pm me. I have much expirence in this sort of thing.

Thx
kirk

 

[sofob0909]

Im in Delaware and i picked this up on NJ. Yes off craigslist. Came with the title too. 5000# GVW

Where are you located? Buy that off of craigslist for 125 bucks?

 

[sofob0909]

Also Trailer channel is 5in tall channel. When i stand on the rear corner (~200#) it deflects 2 inches. I am definately going to build a side wall. looking at 2x2, 3/16 angle iron. Also going to add about 10 more cross members underneith (??? on material yet.)

I appreciate your concerns for safety. I will be engineering this trailer and making sure it is Safe. I will be weighting this trailer.(using the bathroom scale method and CAD)

Thanks for the help and I will keep you all posted. Enjoy the Video

 

[KEH]

5 inch channel is much better, I couldn't tell from the pic.

I don't know how it is in DE but NC requires a tag for a trailer. You have a title so you should have no problem getting a tag, but will it be for a camper or a flat be trailer? What about property taxes? I would ask these questions annomously of the authorities.

Hope you have a spare tire.

KEH

 

[sofob0909]

Hey. i think i should have no problem getting a tag. I drove if home with nothing. no lights or anything but my trucks lights were fully visable. Im not sure how i will title since it will be a different type of trailer now. Ill keep you updated on this process. Maybe i will call it homemade? how hard is it to tag a trailer in NC. I go to school in Charlotte and could do it that way.

No spare either. I wonder how tough it wil be to find one that matches.

5 inch channel is much better, I couldn't tell from the pic.

I don't know how it is in DE but NC requires a tag for a trailer. You have a title so you should have no problem getting a tag, but will it be for a camper or a flat be trailer? What about property taxes? I would ask these questions annomously of the authorities.

Hope you have a spare tire.

KEH

 

[KEH]

I don't live in NC, but am in SC where there is no tag requirement. I know about NC because I bought a trailer from someone in NC and he told me about requirements. If you are just going to be a student in NC I would try to go by home state requirements.

Re spare tire. The quick way to identify a rim is to measure the distance center to center between 2 adjacent lugs, or lug holes if you are looking at a rim by itself. Also measure the center hole diameter. I have seen plastic templates at a tire store which makes things quick and simple for the lug spacing. Haven't seen any for sale at HF, LOL.
My guess is that a Ford rim will fit, but I don't know.

KEH

 

[koditten]

If these axles are true trailer axles and not home built axles out of some random car or truck hub, then most likely the bolt pattern in 4.5 x 5. This is the same pattern as the ford ranger or the jeep wrangler. For you old timers, that is the f100 ford pattern. The only thing you need to look out for is the offset of the rim. The bolt face on the rim might be set in too far, if this is the case the inside of the tire may rub on the outside of the the frame.

Later

Kirk

 

[sofob0909]

Update!

Got the title tranfered.

Now starts the project. Getting wont 5/4 white oak for the deck and some metal for the side walls.

 

[sofob0909]

here is a picture of the google sketchup

 

[rickb801]

When looking for a spare tire and wheel take a look at the center hole on the existing wheels. A lot of trailer wheels need a large center hole to fit over the hub. More than likely your bolt pattern is 5x4.5 which is easy to find.
On another note, do you really need a trailer that long? If not, cut off a few feet of the rear. Would add tongue weight and eliminate some of that long flexy overhang behind the axles. Adding the 2x2x 3/16 angle iron on the sides as well as some add'l crossmembers will go a long way towards adding strength and rigigdity. For the crossmembers you could use a lot of different kinds of steel. 3 inch channel, L3x3x3/16, or T.S. 2x3x1/8 would all work great and leave enough room for the 1 1/2 thick wood on the top since you have 5 inch channel sides.
I've built and remodeled more trailers than i care to remember. Good luck with your project!

 

[ibedayank]

camper trailer frames are NOT strong enough for hauling cars/tractors

 

[sofob0909]

update: I have 15 boards of 5/4 6" by 14' white oak ready for pickup next week.

Any advice on what type of lights I should buy. I want something nice and bright.

 

[koditten]

Without a doubt, spend the money and get led lights. Ilike to use the 6"ovals, with the grommet gaskit. They just pop in and out. I use 4" rectangular tube steel and cap the ends. You can use a hole saw to make 2 holes and knife out the center with a jig saw or just free hand it with a tourch or plasma cutter. Weld the boxes horizontal or vertical, your choice. You will not knock these lights out. The leds cost more, but should last the life of the trailer.

Kirk

 

[kildragon6]

ok so i just joined just to post of this thread, im doing exactly the same thing, and was wondering how it turned out? and pics of it completed

 

[some zilch]

i have what *appears* to be a very similar, if not the same, camper trailer frame. there is no way i would put a car/truck/tractor on it, no matter what i built the deck out of, or how ever many cross braces i added. they flex like crazy with no camper on it to provide rigidity. i cut 24" out of the center of mine (axles and frame), and shortened the deck length to 8ft, and am going to mount my 3500lb generator on it. it will not see road use, and be towed with a tractor.

 

[RVDan]

Box the c channel, that's the only way that ex travel trailer will feel sturdy enough. I built my last car hauler out of almost exactly what you have there. By the time I was done adding metal for strength it was so heavy that putting my jeep on top of it put it at the maximum axle capacity.

You'd be in a better place if you just kept the axles and suspension and built your own frame from box tubing

 

[welderwade]

hi. the main thing to to proper locate axle location which is 60% of your trailer from the front of your trailer not the hitch to center of the two axles hope this helps.....wade

 

[sofob0909]

hi. the main thing to to proper locate axle location which is 60% of your trailer from the front of your trailer not the hitch to center of the two axles hope this helps.....wade

so measure from the center of the two axles and go forward to the ball on the truck?