New vs Old Tools

[_brian_]

A few recent threads got me thinking over the differences between new and old tools. It is common to say that the new tools have dropped in quality, however, the opposite can be said as even the most discount bin tools are of a higher than ever quality.

People on eBay are selling and buying USA Craftsman tools for insane prices. Are they really worth it? Yes, they are USA made, but I might argue that newer Taiwan made tools are actually of a higher quality. USA made does not mean higher quality, and I know that statement will draw anger in some, but it does not. USA does mean that the product will demand a higher price, as all workers in the US will demand a higher salary, but the amount of pay to employees does not simply mean there is higher quality. So what really defines a tool's quality?

If I look at a 20 year old Armstrong (USA) wrench, is that wrench better than a modern Tekton (Taiwan) wrench? Please substitute the brands used for others as I am not intending to make an exact comparison, just an illustration. I have a large set of USA Craftsman RP wrenches and I have filled in some gaps with China made of the same style. I have personally found that the older USA ones have deformed a bit more on the open end than the China ones have, so far.

Please also apply my query to all brands, just just those I reference. I am looking more at the age of the tool, old vs new. I also understand that there is more to it, just because technology improves does not mean that the quality of materials used stays the same.

 

[Shiftless]

The old vises I accumulate with brands of Reed, Starret Athol, Morgan, Hollands, and many others have a build quality beyond that of all the new vises I see in stores. New Wilton C series combination vises and their machinist vises are excellent and just as good or better than the oldies but the prices are beyond what many guys want to pay.

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

A few recent threads got me thinking over the differences between new and old tools. It is common to say that the new tools have dropped in quality, however, the opposite can be said as even the most discount bin tools are of a higher than ever quality.

I see no indicator the bottom of the barrel has risen any higher, the better grade chinesium is not as bad as it was.

People on eBay are selling and buying USA Craftsman tools for insane prices. Are they really worth it? Yes, they are USA made, but I might argue that newer Taiwan made tools are actually of a higher quality.

Raised panel ergonomically ***** and was never more than mid grade, considerably lower going into the 90s...I was getting a free replacement ratchet every other week for the one I used at work.

USA made does not mean higher quality, and I know that statement will draw anger in some, but it does not. USA does mean that the product will demand a higher price, as all workers in the US will demand a higher salary, but the amount of pay to employees does not simply mean there is higher quality. So what really defines a tool's quality?

Ability to fit the space x durability /100

If I look at a 20 year old Armstrong (USA) wrench, is that wrench better than a modern Tekton (Taiwan) wrench? Please substitute the brands used for others as I am not intending to make an exact comparison, just an illustration. I have a large set of USA Craftsman RP wrenches and I have filled in some gaps with China made of the same style. I have personally found that the older USA ones have deformed a bit more on the open end than the China ones have, so far.

How many x longer were they in service?

Please also apply my query to all brands, just just those I reference. I am looking more at the age of the tool, old vs new. I also understand that there is more to it, just because technology improves does not mean that the quality of materials used stays the same.

Steel doesn't change much on a human time scale.

 

[_brian_]

I see no indicator the bottom of the barrel has risen any higher, the better grade chinesium is not as bad as it was.


Raised panel ergonomically ***** and was never more than mid grade, considerably lower going into the 90s...I was getting a free replacement ratchet every other week for the one I used at work.


Ability to fit the space x durability /100


How many x longer were they in service?

Steel doesn't change much on a human time scale.

Well, I am not going to argue. The materials used in itself has not changed. What has changed is the composition of said materials, process, heat treatment, etc.

I find the RP wrenches to be great. They stand up to hammers and all abuse I place on them. If you disagree, justify it.

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

Idk, I have a bin of them I never use?

 

[_brian_]

Idk, I have a bin of them I never use?

Send them to me, I pay shipping?

EDIT: That is not fair, I will also pay for the value you see in them, which seems to be not a lot. Plus, your time to ship.

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/what-can-you-tell-me-about-national-hand-tool.325051 this just resurfaced thread has clues to what happened

 

[_brian_]

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/what-can-you-tell-me-about-national-hand-tool.325051 this just resurfaced thread has clues to what happened

I will read this. Please do contact me, even if DM. I will gladly buy your RP wrenches. I will pay a fair price. I have used those wrenches personally for many years, and I see no issues with them. I like them enough that I have 3 sets of the up to 1 inch / 20mm sets and a more complete set to 32mm.

To add, years in use, that is 30+, never broke one RP wrench, ever.

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

The 3/4 stuff and pliers arent crafty. More than half is v or vv.


The goal is to change them out for older less good tools like so.

 

[d.mcfarland]

I'd give a coll $50 for that bin of Craftsman! Could use all of that at work for the guys.

 

[dchawk81]

TTC compared Taiwan raised panel with USA raised panel and they were basically the same.

The ethnicity, age, citizenship of the person forging doesn't matter. The design, specifications, training and quality control are what matters.

 

[lardy1]

I let several lots of Craftsman tools go to the local auction. I got very little for them but I didn't have to dicker with any assholes and they are gone from my shop. I tried the eBay thing and couldn't get any interest in them.

 

[neophyte]

I see no indicator the bottom of the barrel has risen any higher, the better grade chinesium is not as bad as it was.


Raised panel ergonomically ***** and was never more than mid grade, considerably lower going into the 90s...I was getting a free replacement ratchet every other week for the one I used at work.


Ability to fit the space x durability /100


How many x longer were they in service?

Steel doesn't change much on a human time scale.

When Nicholson shipped the production of their files to Mexico, the files that were produced were unusable ****.
By “unusable ****” I mean I was able to shave the steel of the surface of one with a Swiss Army knife, and Swiss Army knives have steel blades that are soft enough to be sharpened with a serrated sharpening steel or properly made file.
The suspicion was that the manufacturing process was changed somehow, and the steel was getting decarburized during the manufacturing process.

When researching the steel alloys used, I found a forum post that indicated Nicholson used to use a higher carbon steel for their Black Diamond files, but that they had to stop, because their steel supplier would no longer supply the carbon steel alloy with the higher carbon content, which must have been produced specially for Nicholson, or niche industries.
A higher carbon content can also help prevent decarburization.

In addition to the above, older files used to be hardened using liquid lead baths to heat the steel, which has likely mostly stopped in the USA, due to worker safety regulations.
I don’t know how a liquid lead bath compares to salt bath hardening, but the lead bath technique still seems to be used in Europe due to exceptions for certain niche industries, like Dovo razors.

For other tooling, certain steel alloys have been discontinued, or must be much harder or more expensive to get, resulting in certain tooling manufacturers having to switch alloys.
This is apparently an issue with certain brands of drill bit.

 

[Chris_Hamilton]

My 2 cents. Some of what I use there is no comparison between old and new. Being a metal/body/paint guy my 70-100 year old Plvmb and Proto body hammers are far superior to everything made today. Only ones that are close are Picard. Body dollies are about the same, just less choice in shapes these days. A 40 year old Dotco die grinder is far better than the vast majority of air die grinders available today. Modern paint spray guns like Sata and Iwata are much higher quality than old stuff.

Good Craftsman (V, VV) is pretty good quality, good steel, later stuff not as good a steel was used making it. You can see the difference. Craftsman for the last 40+ years has been at best a mid-level brand.

 

[Fedwrench]

Don't judge a tool's quality by the ebay crazies. Craftsman had some gems over the years mixed in with many turds. I disagree that modern tools aren't as good as those old tools your Father & Grandfather used in their driveways. In fact, I feel the quality gap between the truck brands and the non truck brands has narrowed significantly over the last twenty years. Newer tools are less bulky, better finished, and have features like off corner engagement on box ends, and sockets, along with anti slip open ends. Never have you had a wider selection of ratchets and other mechanics tools than is available today. Hell, that stupid double detent retention system used on the female square drive of Craftsman sockets is enough to drive me away Back in the day, the KD combination wrench was much more comfortable to use than the craftsman raised panel of the same period. But, I digress. It is sad to see today's Craftsman raised panel wrenches made in India. Thankfully, I have many other choices.

 

[LOW1]

For me it’s a combination of nostalgia and being good enough for who its for.

I bought a lot of craftsman stuff 1995 to 2005. Fond memories of going to the tool department with my sears credit card and about a $250 credit limit. Buy it and take a few months to pay, hopefully with 90 days same as cash.

And the quality was always good enough for me.

 

[seber]

When Nicholson shipped the production of their files to Mexico, the files that were produced were unusable ****.
By “unusable ****” I mean I was able to shave the steel of the surface of one with a Swiss Army knife, and Swiss Army knives have steel blades that are soft enough to be sharpened with a serrated sharpening steel or properly made file.
The suspicion was that the manufacturing process was changed somehow, and the steel was getting decarburized during the manufacturing process.

When researching the steel alloys used, I found a forum post that indicated Nicholson used to use a higher carbon steel for their Black Diamond files, but that they had to stop, because their steel supplier would no longer supply the carbon steel alloy with the higher carbon content, which must have been produced specially for Nicholson, or niche industries.
A higher carbon content can also help prevent decarburization.

In addition to the above, older files used to be hardened using liquid lead baths to heat the steel, which has likely mostly stopped in the USA, due to worker safety regulations.
I don’t know how a liquid lead bath compares to salt bath hardening, but the lead bath technique still seems to be used in Europe due to exceptions for certain niche industries, like Dovo razors.

For other tooling, certain steel alloys have been discontinued, or must be much harder or more expensive to get, resulting in certain tooling manufacturers having to switch alloys.
This is apparently an issue with certain brands of drill bit.

I don't know about files, but lead bath is still used in wire drawing to anneal the wire during the process. It isn't nearly hot enough to do any hardening. That will always require a furnace. Lead could be used for the tempering part but molten salts are more practical. We used potassium and sodium salts for the purpose.

 

[dchawk81]

I let several lots of Craftsman tools go to the local auction. I got very little for them but I didn't have to dicker with any assholes and they are gone from my shop. I tried the eBay thing and couldn't get any interest in them.

What kind of tools? Most of it doesn't interest me but 6 point combos don't usually have much trouble opening my wallet. Regardless of brand.

 

[neophyte]

I don't know about files, but lead bath is still used in wire drawing to anneal the wire during the process. It isn't nearly hot enough to do any hardening. That will always require a furnace. Lead could be used for the tempering part but molten salts are more practical. We used potassium and sodium salts for the purpose.

Heated liquid lead literally used to be used to heat steal before quenching.
It was one of the reasons file makers in the late 1800s and earlier used to die in their 20s.

 

[Bubba Fett]

Old tools have a good reputation, because it's mainly the good tools that survived. The crappy ones broke, rusted away, or were thrown away. This results in observational bias.

 

[finn]

I have a number of tools from my grandfather’s estate. He was a young adult in the twenties, and I suspect the wrenches he accumulated were from the teens through the fifties.

Most are absolute junk compared to current Chinese or Taiwanese imports.

Nostalgia is a funny thing, isn’t it? We sort of remember what we want, and that tends to obscure reality.

 

[_brian_]

is sad to see today's Craftsman raised panel wrenches made in India. Thankfully, I have many other choices.

Really? I did not know this. I thought they were all China made. The ones I have are all either US or China made, but I do not have any made under SB&D, all under Sears. I generally do not like to judge a tool by its COO without having given it a fair shot, but in the case of India tools, I have yet to see a single one with any sort of quality. All have been total junk... poor fit, poor finish, uneven grinding and shaping, poor chrome, etc. I have some India wrenches from other brands like Sunex, and they are good ONLY because they were dirt cheap and I use them very little, so the issues do not really matter to me.

I will say though... it was with hesitation that I purchased some wrenches I was missing from Sears Craftsman, China made. The ones I have do not have the "lobster claw" issue and are nearly identical in shape and size to the USA ones. I have experienced no issues with them, except for a China made tool, they were a bit overpriced in my opinion. There is the lifetime warranty though, so I know a little of the sale price is applied to that. When I use them, I really cannot tell the difference between the USA and the China ones in most cases. There are a few of the China ones that have a bit of a sharper edge on the edges of the polished portion of the open end, nothing that I would pay more to correct though.

I personally like the feel of the RP, which is strange a bit to me as I hear from so many that they do not. I also do not like the feel of the full polish, like my Gearwrench ratcheting wrenches. For my hands, they are too thin and the full polish is just not as nice to use as the rougher type of finish, like the RPs or even like the Northern Tool 36mm wrench I have, a nice rougher finish. Note I am speaking of wrenches with the RP, not the ratchets. The ratchets left a lot to be desired, USA made ones included.

 

[_brian_]

The 3/4 stuff and pliers arent crafty. More than half is v or vv.


The goal is to change them out for older less good tools like so.

That first picture looks like a collection of some nice tools.

I do not intend to argue, and everyone has a right to their opinions. For me, those tools have always done good by me. I hear often that others talk down on them, call them junk, cheap tools, non professional tools, etc... but it always seems that there is no tangible justification for it. I have seen numerous professionals that have old craftsman tools in them from wrenches, ratchets, sockets, etc. Many have even commented on how they often are given a hard time for them, but say the same... the tools do their job, so I am fine with it.

My opinion as to what makes a professional tool is not the name on the tool. A guy with a nice and shiny Snap-On box full of shiny Snap-On tools is not be default better in any way than one with all generic tools in a Harbor Freight box. What matters is if the tools work as they should and do not cause issues. If they are made poorly and do not fit fasteners properly, that is an issue. If the walls are too thick and cannot get into spots that others can, that is an issue. If they break every other time you use them, that is an issue, even with warranty. You have the tools because you need to use them, and stopping for warranty means you are not working and making money. That is why I ask always... what is the reason you dislike the tool. If it is the opinion that the name is not worthy to be in your box, ok, fair enough. If there are real reasons, I really want to hear, so I can learn from the experiences of others.

The name on the tool does not accomplish anything, it is the person using the tool that matters. I have personally fixed work done at shops and dealers, and I did the work without tool truck tools. The big difference from what I can see and have experienced is that I take the time to do the work properly. I am not rushed by book time or the shop yelling to get a car out so another can get in. I do a lot of side jobs and I hate it when people come in with I need this or that done, it should take 3 hours right? Well, maybe. I fix what I see and do what is needed as I see it in order to get to a quality job. If you want a strictly 3 hour job, are you suggesting that I do not properly fix the car in order to remain within the time? I can 100% say that in some of those jobs, I did a better job than the tech with Snap-On tools. I could almost reverse the mentality and say Snap-On tools are junk, because the work done with the tools was of a poor quality. But the quality of work is not a result of the tool brand used, the tool quality only helps the person do their job in some way or another, whether it be how it feels, better fit, better design, etc. I have some Snap-On, Matco, Mac, etc tools, so I am not against them. I buy them when they offer a unique product I cannot get elsewhere, like the Snap-On retention spark plug sockets. That tools helps get the job done, and if I want that, I need to pay the price. Does it make my work of higher quality, no. Does it save me time in many cases, yes.

 

[four.cycle]

Don't judge a tool's quality by the ebay crazies. Craftsman had some gems over the years mixed in with many turds. I disagree that modern tools aren't as good as those old tools your Father & Grandfather used in their driveways. In fact, I feel the quality gap between the truck brands and the non truck brands has narrowed significantly over the last twenty years. Newer tools are less bulky, better finished..."

^ 100% spot on.

I check ebay all the time. I pay no attention to Craftsman on ebay because those buying and selling Craftsman on ebay are living in some kind of alternate universe - just tune it out.
I am picking items up now and then - onesie twosies - and looking at fit/finish/product quality - and the manufacturers in Taiwan and Japan have seriously done their homework and upped their game. China (PRC) - not so much. Just more imitation and fancy polishing jobs. Meh.

Something that people here need to get into the forefront of their minds:
One out of five people on the planet today is on the Indian sub-continent. By 2050, India's population will have exceeded that of China's. Those are the numbers.
India will have to up its game if it intends to be a player in the global economic market. Thus far I'm not seeing that demonstrated.

Just my lousy two cents.

 

[_brian_]

Something that people here need to get into the forefront of their minds:
One out of five people on the planet today is on the Indian sub-continent. By 2050, India's population will have exceeded that of China's. Those are the numbers.
India will have to up its game if it intends to be a player in the global economic market. Thus far I'm not seeing that demonstrated.

It seems like India is the new China. China tool quality has increased a lot, now it is India's turn I guess. I will also say in my experience that these India tools are worse than anything I have ever seen from China though, they took the low spot from China and made it lower than it was prior, at least in my opinion.

 

[four.cycle]

^ last batch of Indian-made wrenches I bought actually weren't all that bad. not like old Globemaster or Zomax.

 

[_brian_]

^ last batch of Indian-made wrenches I bought actually weren't all that bad. not like old Globemaster or Zomax.

What brand and set did you buy?

 

[d.mcfarland]

^ last batch of Indian-made wrenches I bought actually weren't all that bad. not like old Globemaster or Zomax.

I have the $7 Harbor Freight India made SAE wrench set. It isn't bad at all for the price. It isn't a $300 set of wrenches but for light to medium duty tasks, I agree with you 100%. I would call them serviceable without being overpriced, assuming they are not overworked.

 

[DAustin]

I had some "made in India" Gedore wrenches that I had in a junkyard tool kit. They worked ok, nothing special but nothing like the German made ones.

 

[four.cycle]

What brand and set did you buy?

"AKAR" - they're in the photo here. I think the entire set came in at about $15 bucks including shipping. Not something you're going to have the other guys in the shop drooling over, but I would imagine they are capable of moving nuts and bolts in the correct directions:

 

[F-22]

I have some screwdrivers and wrenches from Aldi (I think they're branded "Workzone"). Overall there's not much to fault them for, and I think they were really cheap. Same grade of tools in the 90's would probably be very ******.

 

[mogandave]

I liked India, but the quality is a nightmare.

 

[joe_padavano]

At swap meet like Carlisle C-man tools are still very reasonable. I typically pay ~$1-$2 for a socket (less in sets) and $2-5 for a wrench. These are used, US-made items. My tools are for using, not collecting, and will get scratched up and greasy anyway. Now, if you are looking for oddball stuff, that's Market Price.

 

[_brian_]

At swap meet like Carlisle C-man tools are still very reasonable. I typically pay ~$1-$2 for a socket (less in sets) and $2-5 for a wrench. These are used, US-made items. My tools are for using, not collecting, and will get scratched up and greasy anyway. Now, if you are looking for oddball stuff, that's Market Price.

I wish I could find such things near me.

 

[dchawk81]

I wish I could find such things near me.

Problem is you have to go where people are and tolerate them.

I find that not worth the savings.

 

[TOOL MASTER]

on the plus side I can sell my snap on tools for twice as much as I paid for them.

 

[joe_padavano]

I wish I could find such things near me.

https://www.hemmings.com/events/concoursfaq?0=0&location_stateFacet=Wisconsin&categoryFacet=Swap%20meet

 

[_brian_]

https://www.hemmings.com/events/concoursfaq?0=0&location_stateFacet=Wisconsin&categoryFacet=Swap%20meet

The swap meet thing is interesting to me, thanks for sharing. This emphasizes my query here on new vs old tools. It got me thinking... would you rather buy an old USA made Craftsman wrench or a new Gearwrench? Or a new Tekton? Does the USA made aspect of the old craftsman mean better quality given the 20+ years between when they were made? Or even further, say the tool is from the 80's, the 60's, etc.

My Craftsman tools are from the 90s and early 2000s. Most are USA (~ 90%), but the more recent are China or other. They have done me well and I have no complaints, so my question relates more to a technical answer than anything as I personally do not see the difference, at least as of now.

 

[Steve_P]

The India made HF and Craftsman wrenches in the PF wrench destruction test did very well for their cost. Not the best, but for few bucks a wrench, they're miles better than the bargain no-name flea market **** sold 30 years ago- and they're even much less $ if you adjust for inflation. India will probably eventually become the next consumer product mega-manufacturing country, because labor in China has become too "expensive" as it has industrialized.

I personally think that the tool market today is better than ever as far as quality vs cost. And, like it or not, it's because there are so many tools being made overseas. I have been shocked (ha!) about the number of power tools that are now made in Vietnam in comparison to three years ago (basically zero). There is still Snap On if you want, and now another 50 choices available online.

There are a vocal minority here that glorify a few vintage USA items like vises and bench grinders. Like there is some magic 50-year-old cast iron formulation that cannot be replicated today; or there is some high-tech machining in a vintage USA vise that cannot be replicated in China today. And compare the fit and finish on a Yost ADI vise to vintage USA before you say China can't make a quality vise- they can if you're willing to pay for it. The same people that say Chinese vises are made from junk cast iron somehow have no issues with Chinese jackstands with the same material. They feel that the Chinese cannot somehow make a bench grinder, but they don't question that the Chinese can make something 50X more complex like cordless tools, and they purchase them without question. But bench grinders are somehow black art. Like everything, there is the bottom end consumer grade $30 vise and grinder- which are fine for 99% of home users. But if you're willing to spend $150+ then there are quality China, Taiwan... options.

As far as Ebay, you need to look at what Craftsman items actually sell for- completed auctions. Just because someone lists a set of wrenches for $300, doesn't mean they will sell.

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

I have and use both kinds of bench grinder.
While the rests on the old iron are generally far better, the ease of firing up a different one instead of changing wheels usually wins out.

...... would you rather buy an old USA made Craftsman wrench or a new Gearwrench? Or a new Tekton? Does the USA made aspect of the old craftsman mean better quality given the 20+ years between when they were made? Or even further, say the tool is from the 80's, the 60's, etc.

My Craftsman tools are from the 90s and early 2000s. Most are USA (~ 90%), but the more recent are China or other. They have done me well and I have no complaints, so my question relates more to a technical answer than anything as I personally do not see the difference, at least as of now.

Initial quality will have far more bearing than the age of the tool unless they are so old as to not have chrome alloy steel.