New Wolverine Floor - Grind or Shotblast?

[drivinhard]

Getting ready to do my ~950 sq/ft Wolverine Floor (that I bought in March, *sigh*) in the new shop. Finish is slick, new concrete (poured last summer). I've powerwashed all the construction dirt/red mud stains out with a 3500 PSI washer. I've etched a few small sections just as a test, and I think grinding or shotblasting will leave a better surface. (yeah yeah, had I known last summer I would have just let the guy broom finish the thing, live and learn). The pressure washer actually will rough it up pretty well, but it would take forever to do it.

My question is, what should I be looking at, shotblasting or powerwashing, AND...in relation to that, any good SPECIFIC models of machines for either to rent from, and a vendor (I'm in the north Atlanta area). Home Depot rents a blastrac 10" diamond grinder/wheel for about a buck fifty for a 1/2 day (if you pick up after 4 and return by 9 am the next day, ie late night fun). I looked at a spot on the floor that the machine had been on, and it's not as rough as 80 grit sandpaper. I'm not sure it's much different than the etching I've done.

Sunbelt rents a blastrac 1-9EZ shotblaster for $263.

http://www.sunbeltrentals.com/Equipment/equipment.aspx?itemid=0320310&catid=s347

and a couple of their grinders.

http://www.sunbeltrentals.com/Equipment/equipment.aspx?itemid=0320050&catid=s340

http://www.sunbeltrentals.com/Equipment/equipment.aspx?itemid=0320020&catid=s340

http://www.sunbeltrentals.com/Equipment/equipment.aspx?itemid=0320030&catid=s340

any experience with specific model numbers/methods?

 

[DynoDave]

Boy, I hope acid etching followed by a power wash is adequate. That's all I hope to have to do.

 

[c6 rocket]

I agree with DynoDave.

 

[67 455 Bird ragtop]

Drivinhard - Was you floor sealed or just polished smooth ??? If it has a sealer on it you may need to grind it off. If not a standard acid wash should be ok. The bond-tite stuff sticks to anything. I hope Eric will chime in on this subject. The Wolverine product is an excellent system. I'm almost finished with my project. I hope to post pictures and my experiences/mistakes later this weekend.

 

[drivinhard]

No sealer, polished smooth on the final finish. I didn't put any sealer down knowing I'd be doing a coating. Slab was poured in June '07. Other than a bit of mud/dirt, and 1 small oil spill while moving, it's never had anything on it.

Here's a section I tested with Behr etcher. The top section square was a 20 min soak and then scrub, the bottom I left on for about 1 hr. Neither was quite as rough as I hoped.

I've heard mixed reviews to using muriatic acid. From what I've researched from guys who do this, mechanical profiling is bit better than chemical profiling.

 

[AlphaGarage]

Shot blasting - done correctly - is probably the best method. For the DIYer the challenge is to get it right using it the first time. It seem the tendency is to overdo it, and that's especially the case where two pases overlap - know as "corn rows." The equipment can be hard to find, and rents for about $300/day.

There are pros who do this, but they usually have a high minimum just to come out, regardless of the square feet.

Floor grinders are easier to find, a lot of Lowes or Home Depots rent them, they're also less expensive to rent, about $100, and they’re easier to use, but they can take several passes to do the trick. Depending on the model they need either stones or blades to properly grind the floor. Ask the rental yard which is best to achieve a 5 to 10 mil profile.

Some folks have used a 7” power hand grinder and say they can be effective if done correctly. I've never tried this, but it sounds like a good alternative. Hopefully someone can post details.

If you go with chemicals the most common one is muriatic acid, it’s readily available and pretty inexpensive. The downside is that it’s nasty stuff, very caustic. You need to be careful with it around any metal, the fumes alone can be corrosive. But eventually it does the trick.

We do have a greener, far more environmentally friendly product called OrganiPrep, but it’s pricey. We sell it mostly to contractors or homeowners who are in an environment where the harsh acid nature of other chemicals are unacceptable. Animal facilities, medical facilities, and place with a lot of sensitive metals present.

Depending on the substrate and the chemical used, it can take more than one application to hit the 5 - 10 mil profile you want.

There are a few epoxy sellers will say that profiling isn’t necessary, technically it’s not. Their products, just like ours, will adhere to a non-profiled substrate. However the chances of eventual failure are far greater if this step is avoided.

 

[WolverineCoatings]

Shotblasting is better than acid etching... However, if you properly acid etch and apply our products they will work fine. The preparation is like anything else; the more work you put into the foundation the stronger the structure! The Bible says in Proverbs 22:6, "Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he is old he will not depart from it." This is the same principle... Training the child at the beginning (the foundation) keeps them solid even when they are old.

Most of the 'packaged' etching solutions are simply Muriatic Acid with some insignificant additive that they can sell you at a premium price. They are usually not worth the money...

So, if you are willing to shotblast... it's a great way to go!

 

[AlphaGarage]

So, you're saying we should train our children to use a shot blaster instead of muriatic acid?

Well now I know what to get the niece for her 9th birthday, I just hope it's still available in Hello Kitty Pink

 

[WolverineCoatings]

lol... you kill me...

 

[DynoDave]

Drivinhard - Was you floor sealed or just polished smooth ??? If it has a sealer on it you may need to grind it off. If not a standard acid wash should be ok. The bond-tite stuff sticks to anything. I hope Eric will chime in on this subject. The Wolverine product is an excellent system. I'm almost finished with my project. I hope to post pictures and my experiences/mistakes later this weekend.

I look forward to seeing that post.

And thanks for the replies Eric and Fred. Not looking to take any shortcuts, but acid prep I can see myself doing. Taking a grinder to the surface of a slab that was the most expensive part of my project, that I'm not so sure about. Like drivinhard, my floor is well cured, with a smooth finish, and has never seen anything but foot traffic. No sealers of any kind.

Fred: I've sent you a couple of PMs. Have you gotten them?

 

[WolverineCoatings]

GET TO WORK Fred!!!

 

[AlphaGarage]

I am working...

Working on figuring why I haven't received any PMs from DynoDave!

I have received, and answered, quitge a few PMs from other members, but don't see any from DD.

DD - Can I ask you to email me at [email protected]?

Thanks!

 

[varunner]

I've read many of these threads concerning etching, blasting, and grinding. It seems the results are all over the place. So my question is this, what is the proper surface finish needed for a successful application of a floor epoxy? Of course it needs to be free of oils and greases, dirt etc. I would think that the actual surface finish of as poured concrete will vary greatly after curing due to concrete mixture and finishing techniques, skill of the finishers etc. Are some floors too rough and need to be smoothed out, are some too rough and need polishing? It seems that being chemically clean is the most important issue.

 

[AlphaGarage]

Did your kids forget to pick up their 1/2 inch Lego blocks before you started to coat the floor? No problem, just put down 3/4 inches of epoxy. (If that happens, let me know, we'll definitely give you a good discount)

So, toys aside, can a surface be too rough? Yes and no. Epoxy is a self leveling liquid. If you apply it thick enough you can theoretically smooth out any surface. With a real rough surface that could get costly.

At the other end of the spectrum, if the surface is glass smooth it would need a minimal amount of epoxy to have a finished smooth coating. But then the bond between the coating and the substrate would be less than ideal.

An epoxy coating adheres to the substrate two ways, with both a chemical and mechanical bond. For the mechanical bond to be effective it helps if there's tiny cracks and crevices for the epoxy to grab onto. Each crack & crevice also exposes an additional bit of surface area for the chemical to do its magic.

We've found that a profile of .005 to .010 microns strike a good balance between rough enough to achieve optimal grip and smooth enough so that a minimal amount of epoxy is required to result in a smooth finished surface. The texture of a 5 - 10 mil profile feels like 80 grit sand paper, 80 grit particles are .00749 microns, so that falls right in the middle of the range.

Part of the reason for so many different views when it comes to prep is that there are so many variables. The existing profile, the composition of the substrate, and its age. If mechanical equipment is used there are a ton of variables - the sharpness of any blades or stones, its speed, its weight, the skills of the operator etc. Likewise chemicals also have numerous factors involved - the concentration, the weather, the amount applied etc.

Eventually most all methods will be able to achieve a suitable profile, some will just be quicker and more effective.

 

[timgr]

...

We've found that a profile of .005 to .010 microns strike a good balance between rough enough to achieve optimal grip and smooth enough so that a minimal amount of epoxy is required to result in a smooth finished surface. The texture of a 5 - 10 mil profile feels like 80 grit sand paper, 80 grit particles are .00749 microns, so that falls right in the middle of the range.

...

Microns? I'm sure you mean mil? A micron is a millionth of a meter, while a mil is 1/1000th of an inch. 5 mil is 0.005" ... 0.005 microns is 5 billionths of a meter, aka 5 nanometers - that's near the limit of electron microscope resolution (very very small).

 

[AlphaGarage]

Microns? I'm sure you mean mil? A micron is a millionth of a meter, while a mil is 1/1000th of an inch. 5 mil is 0.005" ... 0.005 microns is 5 billionths of a meter, aka 5 nanometers - that's near the limit of electron microscope resolution (very very small).

Good catch.

The Coated Abrasives Manufacturer's Institute (CAMI) specs for 80 grit paper
has the average particle size at 192 microns or .00749 inches or just a hanging chad short of 75 mils.

 

[willot1]

OK, mils, schmills. What about temperatures. Here in the south it is heating up. I know the window is smaller for the work time but there has to be a guide. Is there a chart or guidelines for curetime vs temperature. And are we talking surface (concrete) temp or are we talking the air temp?

 

[Scorelow]

Grinding or shot blasting is always better than most available chemicals. Dyno Dave depending on where in MI you are you can go to Norkan in Warren they rent a good diamond grinder. 586-771-6500

 

[WolverineCoatings]

When applying epoxy coatings in the heat there are a couple of things that will help. First, Leave the product in the airconditioned house until you are ready to mix it! Don't apply epoxy in direct sunlight that could boil it! Those are 2 important things...

 

[premierguy]

My question is, what should I be looking at, shotblasting or powerwashing, AND...in relation to that, any good SPECIFIC models of machines for either to rent from, and a vendor (I'm in the north Atlanta area). Home Depot rents a blastrac 10" diamond grinder/wheel for about a buck fifty for a 1/2 day (if you pick up after 4 and return by 9 am the next day, ie late night fun). I looked at a spot on the floor that the machine had been on, and it's not as rough as 80 grit sandpaper. I'm not sure it's much different than the etching I've done.

Many diamond wheels are designed to plug up with dust and give you a backache the next two to three days…. Not to mention the extra $ spent to reach your profile goal grinding with a rental piece who’s company could care less if it takes you the extra hours.

In my region the cement is considered to be softer than other regions due to the Hot and Cold weather cycles. Your concrete should be harder where you live, but then again; poured cement will vary in accordance to materials used and especially the abilities of the cement workers involved.

1) If your cement profile is wavy, a contractor will know that he has much more work to do to shoot for leveling… this is when I would want an experienced coating contractor to use top w/b primers and move 100% Epoxies @ 75-85 sq ft per gallon. I would much rather have a 100% Epoxy mixed with smaller aggregates to help with some serious compression strength and longer durability overall if needed. (Ag must be embedded from bottom to top with no over abundance of epoxy hiding the ags).

2) If your cement was fan troweled, leaving the surface fairly smooth… Shot blast it for higher compression strength type floors… Grind or Etch for normal garage flooring.


Keep in mind that really open surface preparations can leave dust particles regardless and that many coatings aren’t designed to emulsify past serious dust issues.