New Workshop Wiring Question

[BirdHunter]

I'm starting to think maybe I should run the cable, install the new panel once the roof and walls are up and leave it open on the house side for an electrician to finish up.

I'm not sure I know what to do to tap into the meter

 

[Norcal]

Sure: 310.15 B (7) (2)

This allows feeders to be sized at 83% of the feeder rating. This was changed in the 2014 code. It was formerly found in table 310.15(B)(7)

Definition of feeder, for those who don't know: circuit conductors Btwn the service equipment, and the final branch circuit over current device.

Service equipment: disconnecting means (house panel)
Final BC over current device (main breaker in detached workshop panel)

But that only applied to conductors supplying the entire load of a DWELLING which does not apply to subfeeds, or outbuildings.

And to use that section where the 2014 is in effect requires a load calculation, no WAG's.

 

[BirdHunter]

Whole panel.
Sorry for poor quality

 

[brewchief]

Depending on how many circuits that panel is rated for you may be able to use more tandem or even quad breakers to create enough room to feed the new shop.

 

[RickP]

Depending on how many circuits that panel is rated for you may be able to use more tandem or even quad breakers to create enough room to feed the new shop.

That's exactly what I was thinking - a couple of tandem breakers would probably do the trick. Then the garage could be fed from a 240 volt breaker and it would be a standard subpanel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Explain what a feeder is, diesel dummy? ( maybe you should stick to being a diesel mechanic!!!) lol

If it's three wire, it is still a service entrance conductor. Diesel!

If the workshop (not garage) is on a residentially zoned piece of property, than it falls under dwelling unit premise wiring. Btw

We just had this discussion in another thread.

That code doesnt apply here. Just the reason why Norcal called u out on it! wned2:

And im an electrician btw, diesels are my hobby!

AND ad-hominems get u no where other than showing how immature u are!

U lost credability when u called someone a dummy wned:

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'm starting to think maybe I should run the cable, install the new panel once the roof and walls are up and leave it open on the house side for an electrician to finish up.

I'm not sure I know what to do to tap into the meter

U need to check your meter pan and see if it has dual lugs. This requires cutting the seal and looking inside.

If no dual lugs then u would have to change out the meter pan!

 

[BirdHunter]

Just cracked it open.....single lugs.

 

[BirdHunter]

So I'm back to splitting the lugs coming into the main panel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I take it that u dont want to change the pan?

 

[BirdHunter]

Wouldn't even know how.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

U apply for and get permit. PoCo shuts power off. U disconnect everything, remove old pan, install new one, inspector checks work, signs permit and PoCo hooks up power...

 

[C96]

I see Koobs decided to give it up once wyliesdiesels and Norcal set him straight on 310.15 B (7) (2).

Maybe he took the time and read it over again, then realized he acted like…

 

[C96]

Depending on how many circuits that panel is rated for you may be able to use more tandem or even quad breakers to create enough room to feed the new shop.

↑↑ Any reason this won’t work? ↑↑

Seems like your making this more complicated than it needs to be.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Other than what brewchief mentioned? No...

 

[BirdHunter]

Problem is, as demonstrated here, that I have had 3 different electricians come out and quote three different ways of doing this. The. ONLY thing they agreed on was that the panel was full.

First guy wanted $3500 to put in a larger panel and then do it coming off a breaker.

Second guy says we can double lug the power coming into the main panel and if I dig the trench and buy the cable it would be about $1100

Third guy says come off the meter and hasn't gotten back to me yet.

It's not necessarily a money thing.....well the $3500 was.
But now, if there are so many ways to do it I figure I might as well learn something along the way.

 

[RickP]

The easiest way would be swapping a couple of your breakers for tandems, if your panel is rated for them. I guess it's possible the electricians didn't want to quote you a price for something that easy. Do you have the model number for your panel?

 

[Koobs]

I apologize for being an idiot yesterday. But...... Where I'm from (Cleveland) everyone recognizes a feeder as the true meaning of a feeder. I understand the code section calls it out as "supplying the entire load" but then it reads on to say "associated with a one family dwelling" the interpretation of this second part, in Cleveland, Ohio, by professionally trained Journeyman, and the AHJ for all of our building departments, is: "a feeder for any remotely mounted panel that has a final over current device is also included in this reduced calculation. This workshop panel around here would be fine to feed with 2-2-2-4 al quadplex. Sorry Diesel.

 

[Rock knocker]

I apologize for being an idiot yesterday. But...... Where I'm from (Cleveland) everyone recognizes a feeder as the true meaning of a feeder. I understand the code section calls it out as "supplying the entire load" but then it reads on to say "associated with a one family dwelling" the interpretation of this second part, in Cleveland, Ohio, by professionally trained Journeyman, and the AHJ for all of our building departments, is: "a feeder for any remotely mounted panel that has a final over current device is also included in this reduced calculation. This workshop panel around here would be fine to feed with 2-2-2-4 al quadplex. Sorry Diesel.

You're still here? The way you ran your mouth and called names, I thought you'd be a goner for sure.

 

[C96]

It’s also amusing that even after he read it again he still believes he is right. Not only that, but he brings down the Cleveland building department, their inspectors and the professionally trained Journeyman of the area saying they all interpret the code as he does.

Wow, that’s some misinformed people, I guess they all need to re-read 310.15 B (7) (2).

 

[C96]

Maybe the Miranda and a set of cuffs are in order…

 

[Koobs]

If the CMP wanted it the way you think it is (C96) they would have worded it in such a way, to allow NO interpretation. Read it again, and you will see what I mean. I teach code for the IBEW, and we see these wordings throughout the code many times.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Problem is, as demonstrated here, that I have had 3 different electricians come out and quote three different ways of doing this. The. ONLY thing they agreed on was that the panel was full.

First guy wanted $3500 to put in a larger panel and then do it coming off a breaker.

Second guy says we can double lug the power coming into the main panel and if I dig the trench and buy the cable it would be about $1100

Third guy says come off the meter and hasn't gotten back to me yet.

It's not necessarily a money thing.....well the $3500 was.
But now, if there are so many ways to do it I figure I might as well learn something along the way.

Yes theres multiple ways to skin a cat!

I apologize for being an idiot yesterday. But...... Where I'm from (Cleveland) everyone recognizes a feeder as the true meaning of a feeder. I understand the code section calls it out as "supplying the entire load" but then it reads on to say "associated with a one family dwelling" the interpretation of this second part, in Cleveland, Ohio, by professionally trained Journeyman, and the AHJ for all of our building departments, is: "a feeder for any remotely mounted panel that has a final over current device is also included in this reduced calculation. This workshop panel around here would be fine to feed with 2-2-2-4 al quadplex. Sorry Diesel.

If u think that we were saying that u cant use quadplex to feed a garage then youre not paying attention. No one ever said that u cant use #2 AL MHF to feed the garage. U need to go back and reread everything!!

What we did say is that #2 AL needs to be over current protected @ 90a when feeding ANYTHING BUT THE ENTIRE LOAD OF A DWELLING.

U were the one who said #2 AL can be protected by a 100a breaker. We corrected u on that and u threw a hissy fit....

I think u should go back and reread the comments Norcal and I said...

Maybe the Miranda and a set of cuffs are in order…

 

[C96]

I teach code for the IBEW, and we see these wordings throughout the code many times.

Lol…Now the IBEW is involved; man you got some balls dragging them down to your level.

What’s your card number?

 

[pattenp]

I apologize for being an idiot yesterday. But...... Where I'm from (Cleveland) everyone recognizes a feeder as the true meaning of a feeder. I understand the code section calls it out as "supplying the entire load" but then it reads on to say "associated with a one family dwelling" the interpretation of this second part, in Cleveland, Ohio, by professionally trained Journeyman, and the AHJ for all of our building departments, is: "a feeder for any remotely mounted panel that has a final over current device is also included in this reduced calculation. This workshop panel around here would be fine to feed with 2-2-2-4 al quadplex. Sorry Diesel.

You are taking "associated with a one family dwelling" out of context of the sentence. The code says the feeder is to supply the "entire load associated with a one family dwelling". Your interpretation is by being a feeder and being associated with a one family dwelling it falls under code section 310.15(7)(2), which is not correct. The feeder needs to supply the entire load associated with a one family which in this case it does not. So the amp capacity is determined by table 310.15(B)(16).

 

[alfredeneuman]

But...... Where I'm from (Cleveland) everyone recognizes a feeder as the true meaning of a feeder....... the interpretation of this second part, in Cleveland, Ohio, by professionally trained Journeyman, and the AHJ for all of our building departments, is: "a feeder for any remotely mounted panel that has a final over current device is also included in this reduced calculation.. Sorry Diesel.

There's no special building codes unique to Cleveland.

They are on the Ohio State Electrical Code, which is the 2011 NEC with NO AMENDMENTS.

 

[Koobs]

C96: D911967

What's yours?

 

[alfredeneuman]

I teach code for the IBEW, and we see these wordings throughout the code many times.

Some of us don't have union cards

We are lowly licensed contractors

 

[Norcal]

There's no special building codes unique to Cleveland.

They are on the Ohio State Electrical Code, which is the 2011 NEC with NO AMENDMENTS.

Which means the 2014 NEC and any changes are irrelevant to him as it has not been adopted.