"New"Xcelite is ****...Thanks Apex Tool Group

[toolnut]

I have received some Xcelite tools to replace stuff I have used a lot. Unfortunately it is lacking in quality. I think it is on par with the old Buffalo brand. I bought a pozidrive 99-821 for my 99 series set. It is supposed to be poi drive and a #1 point. It looks like a #2 Reed and Prince. The other 99s have the part number stamped in print and not engraved which will fad off fast. Other pliers that I received are not like the originals and the prices did not reflect the quality either.https://www.garagejournal.com/forum...nt.php?attachmentid=913707&stc=1&d=1564345258

 

[measuredtwice]

I have received some Xcelite tools to replace stuff I have used a lot. Unfortunately it is lacking in quality. I think it is on par with the old Buffalo brand. I bought a pozidrive 99-821 for my 99 series set. It is supposed to be poi drive and a #1 point. It looks like a #2 Reed and Prince. The other 99s have the part number stamped in print and not engraved which will fad off fast. Other pliers that I received are not like the originals and the prices did not reflect the quality either.

Their pro series drivers are nice--they're just rebranded Felo Germany. I haven't seen their interchangeable blade drivers since the 90s but I'm sorry to hear the quality is slipping.

 

[zendriver]

Maybe they have economic realities staring them in the face - like every other business.

Do they get the job done?

 

[woody 73]

A very funny story, well I am still crying a river of tears, so I will tell you about yesterday; a garage sale post caught my eyes and I ran like crazy (make that drove like a bat out of hell), and son of a ***** I hit every detour sign known to man, making me 14 minutes late. Darn the wolves were a thick pack and I missed that prize set of tools for all those stupid road blocks...

So that brings me to the story at hand the last few items on the table , (surprised nobody wanted them) was you guessed it old vintage Xcelite drivers, of course I was not going to blow that tank of gas for nothing and they came home with me. Hey you silly wolves you missed that snap on speeder for $5.00 dollars...

Sorry op for your not liking the new tools bummer.

 

[measuredtwice]

...I bought a pozidrive 99-821 for my 99 series set. It is supposed to be poi drive and a #1 point. It looks like a #2 Reed and Prince...

According to their catalog, 99-821 is Phillips #1 (not pozidriv). 99-831 is Pozidriv #1.

 

[dr_clyde]

Apex has ruined every single thing they've touched. I'm not surprised the pliers are not what they used to be.

I hate Apex and what they've done to legacy companies.

 

[Fly YX]

Apex has ruined every single thing they've touched. I'm not surprised the pliers are not what they used to be.

I hate Apex and what they've done to legacy companies.

That is why I try not to buy anything Apex.

 

[Tennessee Cattleman]

Apex has ruined every single thing they've touched. I'm not surprised the pliers are not what they used to be.

I hate Apex and what they've done to legacy companies.

Everything Apex touches turns brown.

 

[davethorik]

This is how I feel about Stanley, although I still buy Proto.

Same, I for one am surprised (but thankful) that Stanley hasn't totally screwed up Proto and Mac.

 

[Skin]

Apex has ruined every single thing they've touched. I'm not surprised the pliers are not what they used to be.

I hate Apex and what they've done to legacy companies.

Its not Apex really. Bigger problem is Danaher/Cooper offloading their tool companies creating Apex then selling it to a Private investment firm who's only goal is top dollar returns.

 

[dr_clyde]

Its not Apex really. Bigger problem is Danaher/Cooper offloading their tool companies creating Apex then selling it to a Private investment firm who's only goal is top dollar returns.

Different name, same assholes. Apex shut down Armstrong and Allen, and I will never forget that, nor will I forget what they did to Jacobs Chuck.

I refuse to buy their products.

 

[3baygarage]

Have to wonder, should some brands have died long ago? The thing is, there is still a calling for them.

Crescent wrench not made in America? When is it not a Crescent wrench anymore?

This comes as I was talking to someone today about another brand gone import, Wilton, as I complimented the nice old 8 incher in their shop.

 

[dr_clyde]

My problem is when you take a company that built a reputation for quality products and good corporate ethics and then a conglomerate buys them, pulls the old switcheroo and hopes no one will notice.

We noticed.

It’s not all about jobs or patriotism or made in USA. I just feel cheated. I want the products that made the company famous. If you want to build ****** drill chucks and sell them cheap, fine. But don’t call them a Jacobs chuck and then stop making the good ones.

It’s greed, plain and simple.

 

[3baygarage]

I agree Dr. Clyde. Call it what it is. Don’t try to pass it off as the same product. Unfortunately, selling that product/brand name is all that matters to them in order to make money. They will ride it till it dies, if it ever does.

 

[Skin]

Different name, same assholes. Apex shut down Armstrong and Allen, and I will never forget that, nor will I forget what they did to Jacobs Chuck.

I refuse to buy their products.

It probably wasn't "Apex" is my point. As soon as Bain Capital got ahold of them im sure some pencil pusher crunched some numbers and figured US manufacturing wasn't netting them a worthwhile profit especially having GearWrench which probably made every other brands earnings look like dead weight. And lets face it, some have been for a long time like Allen and Crescent which had become junk brands years before. Ultimately some accountant and CFO(s), most likely outside of Apex, made some decisions.

Being upset with the entity that is Apex is like holding a soldier accountable for the start of the war.

 

[Flyordie]

Apex has ruined every single thing they've touched. I'm not surprised the pliers are not what they used to be.

I hate Apex and what they've done to legacy companies.

Its actually not Apex thats the problem. Its Bain Capital and WallStreet setting the terms. Beancounters were put in charge of making tools.

My problem is when you take a company that built a reputation for quality products and good corporate ethics and then a conglomerate buys them, pulls the old switcheroo and hopes no one will notice.

We noticed.

It’s not all about jobs or patriotism or made in USA. I just feel cheated. I want the products that made the company famous. If you want to build ****** drill chucks and sell them cheap, fine. But don’t call them a Jacobs chuck and then stop making the good ones.

It’s greed, plain and simple.

This post is awesome.

 

[zendriver]

I once had a 40 year old Snap On 15mm Socket "snap". We know the ones - super deep embossing with the cool black stripe around it.

After a short phone hassle on whether I had the original receipt they sent me a new one. A rather bland looking, less shiny chrome, no black stripe and seemingly piss-poor thinner laser etching.

Funny thing is, although it looks different sitting with the others, it works just fine, so I just accepted the fact things are not always made "like they used to be".

Sometime one wonders if people even understand modern business, in the very least.

The original company sold out for a reason.

 

[dr_clyde]

I understand that Bain is running the show, but that’s still doesn’t change my opinion of the company. Apex is owned by greedy, corporate assholes who don’t understand what they’ve ruined chasing profits. I don’t blame the factory workers or the engineers or the designers, they’re just doing their jobs. I do wholeheartedly blame the management. And therefore I blame the company that Bain hides behind called Apex.

I also understand that you need to be profitable to stay in business, but there is a line that once crossed you can’t come back from. Once you **** over your customer, that brand you paid so much for is now worthless.

The vast, vast majority of people in the world don’t give a **** about tools. Sell them craftsman and tell them they’re “pro grade” and keep them out of my industrial supply wondering why the sockets cost twice what they do at Lowe’s.

But for fucks sake keep your greedy bean counter hands off the actual pro grade tools. I miss Armstrong. I miss Jacobs. Hell they had the actual, namesake ALLEN wrench, and they fucked that up.

I want to go into an industrial supply house and get real industrial tools for my industrial job. I really don’t care about the price. I want the quality and the reliability. I want these companies to make enough money to be in business 100 years from now. Thank God Snap-on hasn’t ruined Williams, CDI, Or Bahco. They at least know how to run a tool company.

 

[dr_clyde]

I once had a 40 year old Snap On 15mm Socket "snap". We know the ones - super deep embossing with the cool black stripe around it.

After a short phone hassle on whether I had the original receipt they sent me a new one. A rather bland looking, less shiny chrome, no black stripe and seemingly piss-poor thinner laser etching.

Funny thing is, although it looks different sitting with the others, it works just fine, so I just accepted the fact things are not always made "like they used to be".

Sometime one wonders if people even understand modern business, in the very least.

The original company sold out for a reason.

I don’t blame the companies for selling. Once you put enough zeros on a check anyone would sell.

Modern business is all about the dollar, but the greed really doesn’t come into its own until the stock market gets involved. Private companies tend to care more about their products and reputations because that’s the most important thing to sell.

Once you have shareholders who expect higher and higher returns every year, you cut everything you can to increase profits until there’s nothing left to cut and the company folds.

My favorite companies are the ones who put their products and reputation ahead of the share price, and as a result have a good share price.

 

[Tallpilot]

Good discussion here. Go watch some interviews with the families who own Yuengling or Shiner breweries. They explain very clearly that the only way to maintain original quality and not be process and value engineered to death by beancounters and their Wall Street overlords is to remain family owned and privately controlled. The same is going to apply in any business.

 

[BlackLS2]

Apex has ruined every single thing they've touched. I'm not surprised the pliers are not what they used to be.

I hate Apex and what they've done to legacy companies.

Quote of the week.....

 

[jmhinkle]

Funny thing to me is I don't think Apex ruined X-celite. I've always thought they were **** before Apex was even around. We used to have a bunch of their clear case sets that were a handle with allen and screwdriver inserts. Some of the worst tools I've ever used. The inserts never stayed in the handle. The handles were awful shaped and sized. They were never the right tool for any job ever. The handles were made of a material that didn't resist any chemicals so they melted to our gloves during maintenance tasks. I started chucking them in the trash when no one was looking and had them replaced with actual allen sets and real screwdrivers from Snap-On. Everyone was happier. The thought of those old boxes of X-celite makes me cringe to this day.

 

[toolnut]

Yep it was an 99-831 that I ordered not a 821. My typo.

 

[Tallpilot]

Funny thing to me is I don't think Apex ruined X-celite. I've always thought they were **** before Apex was even around. We used to have a bunch of their clear case sets that were a handle with allen and screwdriver inserts. Some of the worst tools I've ever used. The inserts never stayed in the handle. The handles were awful shaped and sized. They were never the right tool for any job ever. The handles were made of a material that didn't resist any chemicals so they melted to our gloves during maintenance tasks. I started chucking them in the trash when no one was looking and had them replaced with actual allen sets and real screwdrivers from Snap-On. Everyone was happier. The thought of those old boxes of X-celite makes me cringe to this day.

Driver handles seem to be a deeply personal affair. I never liked X-celite, Snap-on hard handles or any of the ubiquitous WF CAB handles and their many clones. That’s probably why I dislike PB Swiss, they are just a very fancy take on the same basic design. Klein’s rubber over CAB are slightly better but still the same basic cylinder shape. Drivers are meant to be rotated axially and that makes broom handles the wrong shape for decent biomechanics. Square shapes are nearly as bad.

I like Instinct, Wiha Softfinish and Microfinish and to a lesser extent Tekton.

 

[chad w]

My problem is when you take a company that built a reputation for quality products and good corporate ethics and then a conglomerate buys them, pulls the old switcheroo and hopes no one will notice.

We noticed.

It’s not all about jobs or patriotism or made in USA. I just feel cheated. I want the products that made the company famous. If you want to build ****** drill chucks and sell them cheap, fine. But don’t call them a Jacobs chuck and then stop making the good ones.

It’s greed, plain and simple.

Thats business, plain and simple. Why create a new brand to sell junk, when you can capitalize in the NAME and REPUTATION that is already built up? People will buy it because of the name.

 

[dr_clyde]

Thats business, plain and simple. Why create a new brand to sell junk, when you can capitalize in the NAME and REPUTATION that is already built up? People will buy it because of the name.

Or, hear me out, you could not sell junk. Buy an established brand name and make good products. Make money, and keep the reputation. It’s obviously possible to be profitable doing it, but you can’t get greedy and just gut the company for all its worth then dump it.

There’s more to some business than the stock price.

 

[MWEric]

Wright tools and channellock. Private and independent. Capital investment groups have virtually ruined America manufacturing.

 

[BarryWells]

Same, I for one am surprised (but thankful) that Stanley hasn't totally screwed up Proto and Mac.

Stanley is a HUGE conglomerate that makes all level of tools for every budget on earth. They have from the very very best to the mediocre and very little of what I would consider" garbage"----unlike some of Apex'antics over the years
Have a gander. Most people have no idea
https://www.stanleyblackanddecker.com/our-businesses/our-brands

 

[zendriver]

Xcelite has been owned by conglomerates for over 45 years.

Maybe the current product build is just a reflection of current business economics. Most everything seems "cheaper" than it used to be.

I see complaints of how they "look and feel", didn't really see any, where they don't get the job done.

 

[Fly YX]

I guess you can say that about a lot of tool brands. Look at Milwaukee they were made in Wisconsin. Then came TTI moved manufacturing overseas and call it engineered and designed in the US. It's all about money. Companies buy the brand name hoping that people stay brand loyal. Me personally I don't care about the brand as long as it does what I needed to do. I prefer made in the USA but sometimes that's not possible.

 

[M6erfan]

Funny thing to me is I don't think Apex ruined X-celite. I've always thought they were **** before Apex was even around. We used to have a bunch of their clear case sets that were a handle with allen and screwdriver inserts. Some of the worst tools I've ever used. The inserts never stayed in the handle. The handles were awful shaped and sized. They were never the right tool for any job ever. The handles were made of a material that didn't resist any chemicals so they melted to our gloves during maintenance tasks. I started chucking them in the trash when no one was looking and had them replaced with actual allen sets and real screwdrivers from Snap-On. Everyone was happier. The thought of those old boxes of X-celite makes me cringe to this day.

I agree. I've used Xcelite drivers old and new and was never to impressed. They always seemed 'cheap' to me.

 

[Dave455]

Unfortunately, that's the way a lot of U.S. (and to an extent British) business's go! A 'founder' or founding family start making a product, make it as well as they can and build up a business.

Then they go through a period of just 'holding ground', making money but not really re investing, then finally someone ends up in charge who decides to reduce costs by dropping the quality (or maybe knows so little about the product that he thinks he's reduced costs without dropping the quality) and the business is left to tradeoff its name for a bit before folding.

The good news, is that someone else will usually come along and fill the gap's for quality products where they see them.

The bad news, as far as the U.S. is concerned, is thst most of those companies are neither U.S. owned or U.S. based. Look at the amount of German tools being sold in the U.S. now. Decades ago these German tools were functional, but never in the same league as their U.S. equivalents, but the managers of those companies have been pushing quality up and up, and now they are in the top league!

Ditto the Japanese firms. You get a guy at the top making it his lifes aim to make the best tools he can, and sooner or later he will overtake the U.S. stuff - just look at Nepros. Daft thing is, if you tried to explain the business 'strategy' of these big corporations trashing their own brands for short term dollars, that Japanese guy just wouldn't understsnd!

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Stanley is a HUGE conglomerate that makes all level of tools for every budget on earth. They have from the very very best to the mediocre and very little of what I would consider" garbage"----unlike some of Apex'antics over the years
Have a gander. Most people have no idea
https://www.stanleyblackanddecker.com/our-businesses/our-brands

Don't know about anybody else, but I love their garage doors. Got a bunch of their tools as well, without complaint.

 

[Professional Tool User]

It's sad how how quality tool brands are getting killed by cost cutting. If the likes of Bain capital want to play the nickel and dime game, we tool users need to show them that we will nickel and dime them ten times as hard for cost cutting. I have a very firm limit on what I am willing to pay for Made in China and Made in Taiwan tools. Once these assholes attempt to charge more than I am willing to pay, they can go bigger off.

 

[Tallpilot]

I guess you can say that about a lot of tool brands. Look at Milwaukee they were made in Wisconsin. Then came TTI moved manufacturing overseas and call it engineered and designed in the US. It's all about money. Companies buy the brand name hoping that people stay brand loyal. Me personally I don't care about the brand as long as it does what I needed to do. I prefer made in the USA but sometimes that's not possible.

TTI seems to be able to produce the tools overseas without turning them into garbage though. They didn't buy Milwaukee to cheapen the brand. But TTI also isn't beholden to Wall Street and hedge funds.

The comparison between Stanley and Apex is most apropos to this discussion. Stanley spans the value segments from consumer grade to industrial/pro but doesn't seem to make any complete junk. Apex on the other hand cost cuts everything down to nearly useless then tries to weasel out of the warranty.

Arguments to the contrary are just post purchase rationalization. I have some Gearwrench stuff and it is fine but when it breaks it will be replaced with something not made by Apex. My money and my choice; just like I choose not to buy Gillette products.

 

[M6erfan]

The only Apex tools I like and own are my ratcheting/fixed DBE metric set. I hope they never break.

 

[Fly YX]

TTI seems to be able to produce the tools overseas without turning them into garbage though. They didn't buy Milwaukee to cheapen the brand. But TTI also isn't beholden to Wall Street and hedge funds.

The comparison between Stanley and Apex is most apropos to this discussion. Stanley spans the value segments from consumer grade to industrial/pro but doesn't seem to make any complete junk. Apex on the other hand cost cuts everything down to nearly useless then tries to weasel out of the warranty.

Arguments to the contrary are just post purchase rationalization. I have some Gearwrench stuff and it is fine but when it breaks it will be replaced with something not made by Apex. My money and my choice; just like I choose not to buy Gillette products.

I agree with that about TTI the cordless product that Milwaukee had before TTI wasn't very great. TTI definitely stepped up the cordless product for them. But the corded product isn't as good as it used to be but I think I can think you can say that for just about every corded tool maker now.

 

[toolnut]

Added pictures to my original post. As a personal preference I always liked Xcelite because of the compact tool rolls and kits that covered a lot of applications. A lot of brands where lost and the quality went to a low with the remainder. Triangle Group which became Cooper than Apex had Utica ,Bonney ,Crescent ,Armstrong ,Diamond ,Xcelite ,Weller ,and many more which are now in the history books or made overseas to a low quality standard.So I have been replacing a lot with Whia.

 

[bob15]

The comparison between Stanley and Apex is most apropos to this discussion. Stanley spans the value segments from consumer grade to industrial/pro but doesn't seem to make any complete junk. Apex on the other hand cost cuts everything down to nearly useless then tries to weasel out of the warranty.

Today's Stanley is junk compared to the Stanley of 30-40 years ago.....and it goes beyond their tool lines into the hardware side. Stanley WAS a great company with great products made in the States, today it is mainly outsourced junk.

 

[Wamsutta]

Apex used to be a division of Danaher Tool Group; much like Buick is a division of GM.

Xcelite used to be a division of Cooper Tools.

Danaher being the bigger fish than Cooper, bought Cooper Tools.

Bain Capitol being a bigger fish than both Danaher and and Cooper, bought both of them.

Then somebody came around and bought the tool assets from Bain Capitol.

In the process, they decided to take the name "Apex" -- which used to be a division of Danaher -- and name the whole company that. The problem with that is that the other products that the company manufactures has tainted the once great name of Apex with their junk.

There should be a law against transferring ownership of brand names.