New York state regs

[AntonLargiader]

A guy on another forum says he's being billed commercial for his detached garage/shop. He talked to the PoCo: "If a detached structure in NY has power it must be defined commercial is their claim" in his words.

Surely some of you folks live and work in NYS. Is this anything close to the truth? He is near Cortland.

I can't imagine that every detached garage is required to have separate commercial metering.

 

[arrowhead]

Which is ironic as I'm trying to get commercial insurance for my shop business and the insurance companies won't write a policy because it's a detached garage at my residence.

As far as the guy with power to his detached garage, I do know if it's 3 phase the utility will classify it as commercial.

Could also be a town code or a requirement by that particular utility.

 

[AA/FC]

A guy on another forum says he's being billed commercial for his detached garage/shop. He talked to the PoCo: "If a detached structure in NY has power it must be defined commercial is their claim" in his words.

Surely some of you folks live and work in NYS. Is this anything close to the truth? He is near Cortland.

I can't imagine that every detached garage is required to have separate commercial metering.

I have no information regarding the original question.....

But I have to imagine that not every detached garage has it's own meter. Most detach garages have a sub panel..... at least around here anyway. (NOT in New York state)

 

[rlitman]

I think there is a loss in translation somewhere in here.

I don't recall seeing many detached garages with their own utility services (separate meter), but I suspect that the permit initially placed to get that meter is what made it commercial, and at that point, he may be stuck with that. His alternative would be to power the detached structure himself, off a sub-panel and underground feed, and get rid of the separate utility meter.

 

[gfd_703]

I am in TN and because my shop does not have living quarters and has it's own meter I have to pay commercial rates. It was on sub pannel before we added on and it was billed residential rates. After the addition I had to add a meter so as to have enough power. This my not be the same in the next county.

 

[Wrench97]

I have a detached garage here in Pa, it has a separate service and meter then the house and it too is billed as commercial.
Has been for the 41 years I've been here the only way to have it not billed that way is run a line from the house to a subpanel in the garage.
The garage has 250 amp service and the house is 100 amp I asked about running the house as a sub off the garage and PECO says that's ok with them but since it's already commercial it won't be billed as residential, the only way to change it would be to put a new service in the house and run a line out for a subpanel in the garage......................................

 

[AntonLargiader]

It was commercial under the previous owner.

The meter for the shop is actually on the house, with overhead to the shop. If it comes down to it, he could probably just have them disconnect service to the garage. Then he could, later on (like a day later), hook it up to the house panel. But I don't know the actual rules there.

 

[sparky 1971]

Here, and I'm sure here isn't the only place, if it's a second service at a property, the POCO considers it commercial whether it truly is or not.

 

[The Cobbler]

in about 1985 I was renting a shop on a residential property. it had limited power available from the house . not enough to serve my needs properly . if I was using the table saw & the compressor kicked on, it blew a fuse int he house ( yes, a fuse) and I would have to get the landlord in to swap it out
I thought about running a second service to the shop, normally here, they won't put 2 services to a property.
An electrician friend of mine looked into the details,and they would install a second service , but it had to be a commercial acct because it wasn't living quarters. It made it pretty much cost prohibitive for me at that time.

 

[walta]

Generally, the third option is an agriculture service if you can make a plausible case that the place is a tree farm or has a hay field.

Walta

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It was commercial under the previous owner.

The meter for the shop is actually on the house, with overhead to the shop. If it comes down to it, he could probably just have them disconnect service to the garage. Then he could, later on (like a day later), hook it up to the house panel. But I don't know the actual rules there.

would probably get nailed for doing that without a permit

 

[wyliesdiesels]

every PoCo has different rules and regs regarding adll meters for detached buildings. unless someone is local on here, gonna be hard to get a solid answer

 

[Johnny chaos]

I'm in Syracuse, NY and have a detached garage and am not billed separately?

 

[Wrench97]

I'm in Syracuse, NY and have a detached garage and am not billed separately?

Do you have a seperate meter on the garage?

 

[AntonLargiader]

It sounds (based on other thread comments) like older arrangements could be grandfathered, but new needs to be this way, and some other states might be similar. There are complicating issues like his actual consumption but the issue of whether or not it has to be this way no matter what is, I think, a matter of fact.

Those of you on ADVRider can read for yourself but it's in a non-public area. https://www.advrider.com/f/threads/power-company-demand-billing-rant.1691457/

 

[NUTTSGT]

My garage has a separate meter as it used to be a gas station, now just a residential garage. The meter was rated commercial by AEP, it's rated as a small general service.


Problem with getting a story from someone online, is you're more than likely only getting one side of the story.

 

[Crazyjake8493]

I'm in NY and I'm thinking OP means if the garage has a separate metered service then it would be billed as 'commercial' which makes sense. Any residential detached garage is not going to be metered separately anyway unless it is used for a business.

 

[acer66]

Those of you on ADVRider can read for yourself but it's in a non-public area. https://www.advrider.com/f/threads/power-company-demand-billing-rant.1691457/

Holy moly your first sentence there surly sets the tone.

I hope you can sort things out AL.

 

[Johnny chaos]

Sorry for the late response.......I do not have a separate meter on my shop here in NY.

 

[AntonLargiader]

It's not me. I live in Virginia. And yes, details can trickle out to support a specific narrative which is why I only asked about the one thing (which shouldn't really hinge on his details).

Sounds like that is simply not a requirement. He posted the results of a chat with his zoning guy which pretty much blew the power company's position out of the water.

That said, it's a large garage and his consumption last month was more than my house.

 

[dcg9381]

He posted the results of a chat with his zoning guy which pretty much blew the power company's position out of the water.

Around here the POC can set their own rules pretty much. If they say 2nd detached building requires it's own meter and they will charge "commercial rates" then that's it. There is no appeal on that - that's the policy. There is no 2nd power company.

That doesn't mean that the building itself is in any way ZONED commercial. Nor does it mean that it's a commercial building. It's just another "whatever" POC rule that you probably can't successfully argue with. Doesn't make the rule right, fair, or smart..

 

[sparky 1971]

The POCO and the zoning department are two different entities that don't have to agree on anything. A second service is going to be charged at commercial rates even if it's on an outhouse. I've Installed quite a few 2nd services, some ag and some residential. Every one of them was considered commercial by the POCO even though the zoning department said differently.

He can probably fix everything by putting a larger service on the house a feeding the garage from that after abandoning the garage service. If he lives to be 1000 he might recoup the costs by paying a lower rate.

 

[SARG]

Just to mention .... I have a pole barn and a two story structure (storage) 20 feet apart ...... both had meters. I had them yank the pole barn meter and then ran a 12/2 extension lead from the two story to the pole barn wired into the panel.
Saving 30 dollars a month on the fee just to have a meter.

 

[Wrench97]

The POCO and the zoning department are two different entities that don't have to agree on anything. A second service is going to be charged at commercial rates even if it's on an outhouse. I've Installed quite a few 2nd services, some ag and some residential. Every one of them was considered commercial by the POCO even though the zoning department said differently.

He can probably fix everything by putting a larger service on the house a feeding the garage from that after abandoning the garage service. If he lives to be 1000 he might recoup the costs by paying a lower rate.

Exactly why I have not changed mine, the garage averages $26 a month, not in a big hurry to rewire the house upgrade the service and run a sub panel to the garage............................

 

[WildBill]

I'm in WA so not entirely relevant but its interesting how it's done different places. I put a separate service on my shop when I built it about two years ago, it is billed as residential and the power company was fine doing it. Saved me a bunch of money not running wires and digging a long trench from the house. The transformer is directly across the street from the shop power drop so easy connection. They even upgraded the transformer so I would have enough power at no charge to me. It shows up on my power bill as a separate line item that's added up with the house bill. They count it separately when looking at the different usage/cost tiers though, which makes it cheaper power than if I had tied it to the house meter.

 

[beltfeed]

Unfortunately, I live in the sewer state of NY. I'm in the process of putting up a stick framed shop building 475' back from the road this coming summer. I have been dealing with my local PoCo for electrical service options for the last six months. Currently my home is set back 200' from the road with a 200-amp service and pole mounted roadside transformer. I wanted at least 200 amps in the shop building preferred 300-amps. After having the PoCo out to my property here is what I learned. You may only have one residential service per a single-family home parcel. I wanted a completely separate service to my shop building which I was told the second service would be a commercial service. A commercial underground service has to be in 4" PVC conduit for the full distance. A second empty 4" PVC conduit has to be ran alongside the first conduit for a backup incase the service has to be moved and pulled through the backup conduit. 4" PVC runs about $10 a foot. My second option was to have single residential service with a transformer placed between my house and shop with a 320-amp meter socket at the transformer location. This would feed two 200-amp load centers, the one in my house and the one in my shop. Residential service wire does not need to be in conduit, just a 3' deep sand bedded trench. PoCo covers the service wire cost to the transformer on residential services, resident pays for the service wire cost to the transformer on a commercial service. Commercial service has a $26 a month surcharge attached to it forever. Needless to say, I will end up with a single residential so called 320-amp service that will deliver 400 amps peak and 370 amps continuous. It's about 25K more for the commercial service for me.