To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Newbie from Kentucky

daytonguy

Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2023
Messages
13
Location
Waddy, Kentucky
Hiya All - Found this site and hoping to get some helpful advice. Not sure where to post my question about a old drill press chuck that just refuses to come out. Its not a Jacob's and I've tried a drift, maybe wedges next ? Think whoever had it before jammed it in or reinstalled without cleaning it. At my wits end. Any helpful ideas are appreciated !
 
Last edited:
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
OP
D

daytonguy

Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2023
Messages
13
Location
Waddy, Kentucky
The chuck was beat up pretty bad but I did put a gauge on the spindle and it ran true within a couple of thousands, obviously the chuck was way out. Tried the wood trick and tried a drift but no go - hate to take it out of the machine body and I don't think I have a long enough punch to go from the top. Maybe some wedges and some penetrating oil like Kryoil ? No markings on the chuck to ID either - got this old Dayton for free and now I know why !
Suggestions?
 

Attachments

  • 20230425_102945.jpg
    20230425_102945.jpg
    614.3 KB · Views: 6
  • 20230425_102923.jpg
    20230425_102923.jpg
    672.9 KB · Views: 5

RoninB4

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
3,645
Location
Under My House
Looks like OEM used a taper with a drive tang, my preferred version. Unfortunately it also looks like some PO just jammed a chuck with no drive tang in it, like one that should have been used with a lathe tailstock. I'd try making a small rectangle of metal that will fit in there to take the place of the tang. It will need to be thick enough not to deform from the pounding but small enough to take the place of the tang and not interfere with the opening for the chuck taper in the spindle. Soak spindle in penetrating fluid for a couple of days, insert your tang replacement and then use a standard tapered drift key that fits correctly so the tapered part of the key only contacts the upper part of the spindle slot and the tang replacement. If the tapered key is the wrong size it will be damaging the spindle slot itself and get you nowhere.

If that doesn't work it's either use a different drift or pull the spindle out for further remediation. Post your results, good luck.
 
OP
D

daytonguy

Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2023
Messages
13
Location
Waddy, Kentucky
Sorry for my ignorance but I don't have any idea what a drive tang is or what it looks like, picture of one maybe ? Soaking with Kryoil as we speak. Thanks !
 
OP
D

daytonguy

Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2023
Messages
13
Location
Waddy, Kentucky
Ahhh...looked on the internet and my chuck does have the tang - if I shine a light through the slot, you can see the light from the other side and the tang is visible - looks like they tried something before because the tang top is kind of beat to hell but if the oil works, there is still enough room for the taper to fall through without damaging the inside. I can still try making a small piece to fit on top but don't think I have any hardened steel to use...will see after it soaks.
 

nadogail

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
32,109
Location
Coronado, CA
I made a tapered wedge from a scrap of 1/4” aluminum plate that I drove into the opening in the quill and my arbor popped right out.

If someone had put Lock Tight on the arbor when they had mounted the chuck it probably would not have been easy.
 

RoninB4

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
3,645
Location
Under My House
Ahhh...looked on the internet and my chuck does have the tang - if I shine a light through the slot, you can see the light from the other side and the tang is visible - looks like they tried something before because the tang top is kind of beat to hell but if the oil works, there is still enough room for the taper to fall through without damaging the inside. I can still try making a small piece to fit on top but don't think I have any hardened steel to use...will see after it soaks.
-I called it a "drive tang" but that's probably not correct. It was just my attempt to describe with the fewest words. Good that you were willing to do some searching yourself to see what the heck I was talking about. Not everybody does their homework.

I have sometimes encountered a tang that didn't match up well with the slot, not sure why but it's clearly not what the OEM designed for. Sometimes a tang is short because it's been beat up and needed the mangled portions removed, yours has some evidence of a hammer mechanic owning it previously.

Penetrating oil (PB Blaster or even ATF mixed with Acetone) will help break up any corrosion in there. Not required to use hardened steel for this and wouldn't suggest it anyway. Hardened steel (depending upon how hard it is) could shatter on impact, leaving bits/pieces in there. The only hardened steel made for impact is one of the S group steels like S-7. Use any piece of un-hardened steel like CRS. If it starts deforming from impact make sure to remove it BEFORE it gets wedged in and makes removal a bigger job. Make another and try again. Many times I've had to make a tool that just gets mangled in the process, I call it disposable tooling. Sometimes the gods of machinery demand a sacrifice on the altar of destruction to get a job done. So be it.

Might also help to lay the spindle horizontal (if possible) and support it with some wood blocks. Done this way, all of the force will transfer to the area. Hammer massage on the drill press while it's standing up will shake/rattle the entire press assembly, you may knock the press over doing that. Laying horizontal and supported will also allow you a better feel for how much force you're actually applying.
 
OP
D

daytonguy

Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2023
Messages
13
Location
Waddy, Kentucky
I made a tapered wedge from a scrap of 1/4” aluminum plate that I drove into the opening in the quill and my arbor popped right out.

If someone had put Lock Tight on the arbor when they had mounted the chuck it probably would not have been easy.
Thanks Nadogail - been looking around in my scrap metal pile in the barn...thought I had some plate somewhere but still searching - lol - as you mentioned early on, penetrant and patience !
 
OP
D

daytonguy

Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2023
Messages
13
Location
Waddy, Kentucky
Great success ! Made a drift from an old mower blade and with the Kryoil and a few hits the chuck finally came out ! Cleaned the arbor and the inside of the quill, put it back in to check for runout...still way off by 10-15 thousands.
Query is now, how do I know what chuck to buy ( no stamped info on chuck )...measure the arbor or inside diameter of the chuck or ????
Thanks again to both RoninB4 and Nadogail - you guys are awesome !👍👍
 

Attachments

  • 20230426_104123.jpg
    20230426_104123.jpg
    415.9 KB · Views: 2
Last edited:

RoninB4

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
3,645
Location
Under My House
-The runout is likely from the chuck being over-tightened, also called "sprung". A replacement should be fairly simple. Pick two locations, mark them with a black magic marker. Now lightly scribe a line on those two areas, they will establish two diameters and one distance. You'll need a caliper to do this, measuring to three decimal places as best you can. Measure both diameter at the scribed lines and then the distance between the lines. This will establish the amount of taper that will correspond to either a Jacobs, Morse, B&S, or an MT type taper. Check the fit of the old chuck arbor in the spindle. If it's the correct taper it will be a bit loose all the way until the last few .001's where it will lock in place. If the fit is good then proceed with finding a good match. Check the tang length of the new chuck so you don't have to go through this again. Also, clean the inside of the spindle out real good and apply a thin film of oil in there to avoid corrosion. Report back you results.

-Glad to hear it popped out of there.:beer:
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
OP
D

daytonguy

Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2023
Messages
13
Location
Waddy, Kentucky
Seems like I should measure near the tang at the top and near the chuck at the bottom to get a true reading for the taper. The old one fit in fine with a good shove after cleaning and stayed in place while running to measure the runout.
Is it possible to get a keyless chuck for the models you mention ? I'll be doing mostly wood and some light metal work so not sure about the ones you mentioned. Again, thank you for your assistance - and it came out this morning - too early for a beer but I sucked the coffee down in celebration !
 

RoninB4

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
3,645
Location
Under My House
-Measure the flat length of the tang on the old chuck arbor, flat being the section past the radius. Use that as a guide when buying a replacement. an extra 3/8"-1/2" (if it fits) will be more than enough. As you now know, it only takes a few .001's of downward movement to make the arbor loose enough to remove.

-As for the other "models", those are the types of taper used in machine tooling. It's not a matter of choice, it either fits or it doesn't so you have to select a replacement based upon what you have. As for keyless chucks...I'm not a big fan of them. The expensive ones work most of the time (I do metal working) but sometimes they don't hold well enough. For the keyless that include a wrench, they'll grip a bit tight enough but now I'm using a different type of "key" aren't I? For woodworking they may work just fine (less torque required) but I don't mind using a chuck key at all and don't find it to be inconvenient. What I do find inconvenient is a chuck that won't grip the tooling or it locks down on the tooling so much that I can't get it free. For this reason get a chuck that uses either a key or a wrench to facilitate tightening and loosening.

-When success arrives any beverage is good.
 
OP
D

daytonguy

Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2023
Messages
13
Location
Waddy, Kentucky
Here are the measurements taken from 2 spots you wanted me to report back on for the chuck arbor:
Arbor top- .602
Arbor bottom- .695
Length from scribe lines - .895
Overall length ( from bottom to start of tang radius - 2.355
Tang length - .430
So, am I replacing the arbor and chuck or just the chuck ? Looking online at descriptions is a new language for me, ie. a Morse taper #2, ect.. 1/2 or 5/8 ect...
- thanks again 👍
 
Last edited:
OP
D

daytonguy

Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2023
Messages
13
Location
Waddy, Kentucky
Okay...looking at several taper calculations sites and based on the above dimensions it looks like I have a Morse #2 taper on the arbor - so now what do I do, get the chuck with the arbor or just the chuck ?
 

RoninB4

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
3,645
Location
Under My House
Okay...looking at several taper calculations sites and based on the above dimensions it looks like I have a Morse #2 taper on the arbor - so now what do I do, get the chuck with the arbor or just the chuck ?
-If you've got a Morse #2 then that's the important part. The chuck itself my or may not separate from the arbor. The question is if you had trouble getting the arbor out of the spindle do you want to go through that again? The chuck itself will either thread on, be on a stub taper, or be integral to the arbor. You'll have to look closely, maybe under magnification, to determine if it comes apart or not. Even if it does come apart it's probably locked up from being together so long. I hate to advocate spending more money than needed but it would be far easier to just get a new arbor and new chuck. A new arbor won't be terribly expensive and then you can just get started doing things you bought the drill press for instead of wrestling with a reluctant arbor/chuck.

If you're getting both new then pay attention to how the chuck and arbor attach to each other. If they come already assembled then the Morse taper is all you have to be concerned about. Like everything else, better quality costs more. So you'll have to decide how long you'll be using this and how good a chuck you feel is appropriate. I do metal working but always adjust what I need to what the machine and tooling is capable of. I wouldn't recommend any of the chucks made in China just because the quality of construction is varied. Some seem ok, others are a POS right out of the box. An Albrecht is nice but not cheap. I make do with a middle of the road Jacobs, if I need better accuracy I use something else.

Search on the internet, you'll get a good idea of what's out there. If you want to send me a link I can check it out. Be sure to check any of the industrial supply houses that cater to machine shops. Usually better quality if they sell to machine shops, the consumer grade stuff at big box stores is usually not as good as industrial grade stuff. They also run sales on items just like anybody else. I wouldn't go to MSC, Grainger, or McMaster as their prices are usually higher than places like Astral Tool, Traverse City, or Zenger's.
 
OP
D

daytonguy

Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2023
Messages
13
Location
Waddy, Kentucky
Gotcha - used a center punch on the inside of the chuck and 2 taps and the arbor came out, so a stub taper
Started looking on the net and you're right, LOTS ! I'm not a cheapskate but definitely not going to go for the cheap ones I've seen.
Most of the work here on our Farm would be mostly light metal work and woodwork so I guess something middle of the road. I did see one that caught my eye - Earl Diamond 5/8" MT2 but I'll take a gander at the ones you've mentioned. Almost delirious about getting this freebie up and going ! Just out of curiosity, might you be a machinist ? Lots of knowledge and easily understood !
 

RoninB4

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
3,645
Location
Under My House
Just out of curiosity, might you be a machinist ? Lots of knowledge and easily understood !
-I was a machinist that worked my way up to being a tool and die maker for 25 years before I went into mechanical design the last 15 years before retiring. I know a few things but still try to keep up with technology on some of the machinist boards.
 

RoninB4

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
3,645
Location
Under My House
-Jacobs used to be the go-to, hard to beat for the money. After shutting down the factory in SC the venture capitalist vultures attempted to capitalize on name brand while reducing the costs of a quality made product that was a standard of the industry for decades. The Chinese made (laser engraved) are absolute sh*t compared to the older USA made (stamped name in body) ones. Even the brand new "Super" ball bearing models are ****, enough so to tell just by looking at or holding one. So very disappointing, for me, to see a, once respected, maker of such a basic component of manufacturing reduced to a not-worth-the-weight-in-scrap disposable POS. So very many other makers of drill chucks have followed the trend. All because of the motherless venture capitalists that have sacrificed good companies for the sake of greater personal profits. Do I sound bitter?

So I did some reading on a machinist board concerning drill chucks. There were some conclusions by unanimous consensus:

1) Almost all of the drill chucks are poorly made now, Americans (not the only ones) demand things by price alone because they think all things are equal except price. I knew the "Outsource" trend would result in a race to the bottom, I just didn't think it would be so pervasive or this fast.

2) Most of the machinists search for older/used chucks on E(vil)-Bay and zoom in on the photos looking for clues about condition.

3) The price of the POS new ones is not much different than the used ones on the market but the difference in quality is huge.

4) The keyless chucks may seem more convenient but do have a tendency to tighten up when being used. For this reason, if you're considering getting one, make sure it uses a wrench (flats cut on the chuck body near the top) to help loosen the chuck or you'll end up needing a "gorilla grip" to get it loose sometimes.

Older brands that used to be good, can't say for certain now.

Rohm- German made, well made chuck but a bit pricey when new
Lyndex-Nikken- Also a well made chuck but mostly used with CNC machines and rather expensive
Albrecht- Preferred by those wanting a keyless chuck
LFA-Made in France, was a good buy for the money. Now not likely to be made in France.
Jacobs- Standard of the industry. Look for the stamped name on the body. All laser marked models to be avoided.

As difficult as it now is to obtain a decently made chuck I wouldn't blame you if you purchased a POS from China. Be advised that the satisfaction of a low price will disappear soon after using a while. The used market may have some slightly beat up models but if they still work (many do after decades) then they'd be my choice. Also be advised that most sellers know the new ones are POS and charge stupidly high prices for better quality older ones. It's sorta the same for bench vises, what you couldn't give away 15 years ago is now commanding top dollar prices. May all venture capitalists be visited by the ghost of Jacob Marley.
 
Last edited:
OP
D

daytonguy

Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2023
Messages
13
Location
Waddy, Kentucky
Backing up a bit - I worked at a machining shop for 7 yrs as a operator of presses - was just starting to learn from the tool/die guy on the mill and lathe making punch dies and parts - never got into taking everything apart to repair what you are using to work with - to that end, thanks again for sharing your time and knowledge with me !!
You dont sound bitter but quite truthful - such is the course of all things now it seems, and discouraging too. Yes, did more.followup and Bluerock is just a distribution center for China parts and you are correct again about sellers on E(vil)Bay <---crackup !
bumping up prices.
A machine shop could justify the costs for european chucks but I'm considering just using a good stub arbor and if the POS chucks fail then so be it...who knew it would be so hard to just get a simple, accurate drill hole with no runout !! Wife is on me about finishing the garden up before Christmas, so it might be a bit before I update you on what I found. Thanks for the 4 consensus points as well - 👍👍
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom