Newbie metal shaper and project

[428street]

I wanted to introduce myself to the group. I have been speaking back and forth with Robert of MP&C and he told me it's best to introduce myself and my project to the group.

I have never done any metal repair work in my life but I have a huge desire to learn. This seems like the type of work that takes years and years to perfect. I realize that going into it.

I have two International Scout 800s I am restoring. Both need all kinds of work. I've been working on the mechanicals over the last year or so and am close to rapping that work up. Now onto the sheet metal work. My interest is deeper then just doing the work that needs to be done on my Scouts and hopefully it will lead into other work down the road. Baby steps for now.

On Roberts recommendation I ordered the DVD from David Gardiner and will also eventually be buying the DVD set from Mr. Tommasini as well.

I have attached some pics of my trucks, the panel that need replacement and an end cap I bought to practice on. I also have a couple of front fenders from a Scout that was junked to practice on as well.

I recently picked up a Hobart 140 MIG welder and am taking welding classes locally. I have a compressor and a cut off and grinding tool.

I have a bunch of questions but before I ask I am going to wait and watch the DVD when it comes. I'm kind of stuck on what tools I needs and honestly how to start one of my practice projects.

 

[rockwithjason]

one of the most overlooked tools is a scrap pile. you will notice in Robert's thread, he uses scrap to build tools for specific tasks. being well stocked with angle and other shaped allows you to use simple hammers you can get at harbor freight to get shapes into metal.

another simple tool is tag board or craft paper. you can use these to analyze how a flat shape would need to be shrunk, stretched, bent, or cut to achieve a certain shape.

 

[428street]

good advice but I don't have any scrap yet to save! I just found a local steel supplier that has a remnants barn that I need to go up to an buy some angle, sheet metal, etc. I have absolutely nothing right now other then a dream...

 

[454ragtop]

Might take a look at this http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/53-belair-conv-rust-repair-233635.html Guy doing some awesome work with not a lot of equipment.

 

[Slednut]

I'm kinda in the same boat, the day before Thanksgiving I bought a Miller 211 and some sheet metal. I've never mig welded. Thanksgiving morning I started replacing the rusted panels on my project car. I had to start over on a couple panels, mainly because I didn't have a way to paint them on the inside.

 

[Ohmthis]

428, welcome to GJ. Per Roberts advice I too picked up David's video. It is really easy to follow and you will use those skills the first time you shape something. As for tools, look for used if you are patient. There are tons of good (read high quality) used tools on certain auction sites. i picked up 2 snap on body hammer heads for cheap and put new handles on. Keep us updated on your project and progress.

 

[damnesia]

Nice collection of Scouts. I collect IHs too. Trying to fix the body on them is one way to force yourself to get good at shaping metal, since you can't readily buy body parts new for them ( not exactly true, but the re-stamped stuff is generally more than I paid for the vehicle I'm working on at the time ). I currently have 5 Scout 800s, 1 Scout 80 ( red carpet scout ), a 1967 1200 travelall and a 1968 1200 pickup.

One thing you're going to need to invest in is a set of good hammers and at least a few dollys. Do yourself a favor and don't get cheap hammers. They aren't balanced very well and it makes a huge difference if you're trying to learn to use them correctly. My person favorites are sykes and pickavant, and older protos.

Learning to weld for body panel patches and fab is pretty easy. You won't be running beads but stitch welding. It's basically just making a lot tack welds so the metal doesn't warp. When just starting out it can be helpful to use a piece of copper behind you're welds. You can make buy them or make them out of copper sheet.

 

[damnesia]

One thing I forgot to add that I wish I had known about sooner than I did. Think about investing in a shrinking disc. Very easy to use and very, very helpful when shaping sheet metal.

 

[damnesia]

Last post tonight, I promise. I was looking for this in my earlier reply and couldn't find it. There are several good threads on patching/fixing body panels on here but this is one of the best I've seen, on GJ or anywhere really. It explains about all you need to know:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53534&highlight=patch+panel

 

[MP&C]

I recently picked up a Hobart 140 MIG welder and am taking welding classes locally.

Just as an FYI, most welding classes out there teach process for welding structural steel, ie: 1/8" and thicker. Where you will do well in learning machine setup and technique, In many cases the instructor has never had to deal with sheet metal, so your instruction may not be tailored to sheet metal. (19 gauge = .041 thick) Once done with your class, we can go over what you need to forget when making the jump to sheet metal..


But the welding patch panels link in the post above covers most of it...

 

[damnesia]

Just as an FYI, most welding classes out there teach process for welding structural steel, ie: 1/8" and thicker. Where you will do well in learning machine setup and technique, In many cases the instructor has never had to deal with sheet metal, so your instruction may not be tailored to sheet metal. (19 gauge = .041 thick) Once done with your class, we can go over what you need to forget when making the jump to sheet metal..


But the welding patch panels link in the post above covers most of it...

The metals shaping link in MP&C's signature is the link I meant to post. It's very informative, but they're both full of good info.

 

[428street]

Thanks for all the responses guys...damnesia, have you done a lot of body work to your 800s?

 

[428street]

So, assuming I have zero experience I should wait for the video, watch it a couple times, make a list of tools to buy then start on one of my practice projects. Make sense?

 

[428street]

BTW, I'm at post #250 in the previous suggested thread...and I'm going to go back over it again and take notes. My plan is to give back to the list by making a readers digest version and posting for others...thats my plan...

 

[damnesia]

Thanks for all the responses guys...damnesia, have you done a lot of body work to your 800s?

Over the years I have. I'm just finishing up repairing my driver's side seat base and then other than finishing work, I'm done with the bodies. Or at least I think I am. Never can tell when until the paint comes off

 

[Stooge]

I'm no pro, but I can usually ******** my way through to make it look right or make something from scratch, and I will definitely agree with Rockwithjason's post, just having some scrap metal around is too handy, both for the scrap sheet metal to make repairs with as well as just bits and bobs to make up new tools. theres a lot of homebrew repairs in my signature thread, but its mostly just teaching myself to do things by diving in and forcing myself to learn, ( very much unlike Robert's threads! )

I slightly disagree with damnesia about the hammers, picking up a 7 pc or whatever set of harbor freight/ eastwood/ whoever's hammers are a good way to figure out what does what with minimal investment. then you can determine where you want to spend some money and what you like using, plus you always have the cheap hammers to modify later on if you need an odd size or need to chop one down to for tight fitments, your not doing it to your nice ones. someone had left a set at my shop a few years ago, and although they are modified, they get used constantly along with my snap on, martins, and whatever other nicer pieces I have, plus the dollies they came with are smaller than my other standard dollies which comes in handy

 

[IronTrap]

Fitment is key. Make your patch panels fit as good as possible before welding. Keep your heat down, and learn to dial in your machine for nice flat welds.

A set of hammers and dollies are key as well. Watch lots of YouTube videos too!

-Matt/EW

 

[damnesia]

I slightly disagree with damnesia about the hammers, picking up a 7 pc or whatever set of harbor freight/ eastwood/ whoever's hammers are a good way to figure out what does what with minimal investment. then you can determine where you want to spend some money and what you like using, plus you always have the cheap hammers to modify later on if you need an odd size or need to chop one down to for tight fitments, your not doing it to your nice ones. someone had left a set at my shop a few years ago, and although they are modified, they get used constantly along with my snap on, martins, and whatever other nicer pieces I have, plus the dollies they came with are smaller than my other standard dollies which comes in handy

At the risk of sounding defensive , I'm definitely not suggesting to spend hundreds of dollars on good hammers. More suggesting to buy used. One could put together a basic set of used Fairmont ( or other good brand ) hammers from ebay, craigslist, etc. for not much cash. Especially since at first 3 hammers would suffice. Having cheap hammers around to modify is a good point, although I've personally never had the need to do it. For finishing, especially on the thick metal of a Scout 800, the proper technique will make things much quicker and easier. Also picking up the proper technique is always good and would be difficult with hammers that aren't balanced correctly. If you do go used, polish the hammer faces before use and keep them polished. If you don't, it will transfer the pattern onto the sheet metal and make more finishing work.

For dollies, cheap ones should work fine.

 

[428street]

Thanks guys. I'm all about saving money but understand it will take me longer to find the "good ones" clean, polish, etc., and I don't even know what I am looking for or how to polish them anyway. I won't know a good hammer vs. a bad hammer if my life depended on it...for example, I'm huge into bass fishing and I spent a lot of time overhauling my reels and bought videos, talked to other high end reel repair people and I got really good at it. It allowed me to buy "junk" reels for cheap because they were broken but easy fixes for me but to the untraining person they were boat anchors. My point is I get where you are coming from but I don't have the experience right now to piece meal stuff together...money is not pouring out of my pockets but I will invest the money to get quality tools...again, I really appreciate the advice...

 

[48RON54]

I'm looking forward to watching you learn.

 

[428street]

Can someone school me on hammers, dollies and sandbags? Those seem to be the basic tools and I'm sure there are 10-100s of different ones. Looking to spend as much as I have to on good tools but don't need the Porsche of tools unless it makes sense. For example, if a HB hammer set of three cost $35 but a really good set cost $55, I'll spend the extra $20 all day long.


I have a MIG welder, electric stud welder gun, tin snips, straight/left/right, couple of vise grips, files, etc.

 

[Divcod]

Martin tools have worked well for me but a friends uses HF tools and does excellent work. Ron Covell, watched a lot of his videos, stated you can build anything with the basic tools and they will let you learn how metal moves. Without understanding metal movement power tools increase the speed of generating scrap.