Newbie with some pole barn questions

[Pechinger]

Hi guys,

I have been lurking for a few years here but just registered.
I have just bought my first house. A 3 bedroom single story with 7.8ac and a 32x24x12 (approx) pole barn. I live in northern Ontario and the barn has heaved quite a bit (18" in the worst part). The house inspector said the frost depth is about 6' so I doubt the posts are down that far.

I don't know of any way to get the posts back down. So I am thinking of disassembling the barn and doing proper concrete footings to put the posts on. The posts are 6x6 PT, there is a steel roof, engineered trusses, and true 2"x6" girts.
I would like to save the posts, girts, trusses, and tin on the roof. I want to put the barn back up in the same spot and possible add 8' to the length and probably bring the eave down to 10' high.

6' is a long way into the ground!
My plan is to get 7' holes dug, add 12" gravel, and 2-3' of cement as a footing. I will then place the post on this footing (3-4' of wood in the ground depending on how deep I go with concrete) and back fill with gravel or cement. Does that sound like a good way of doing things?

 

[Chris705]

To me it doesn't sound like a good detail for the footing to be so high. Once you put your post's up on the footing you now have a post that is subject to lift due to frost heave. Leave your posts all the way down at frost line and use lift blocks to restrict frost from grabbing hold and lifting your post again. You didn't describe a detail for holding your post down to the concrete footing you describe, in case you where planing to imbed the post partly into the concrete I wouldn't do that either. If your posts are 12' above grade use the additional 2' when you go to ten foot clg to lower the footing to hopefully the 6' you require.

 

[matt_i]

I would first question your future uses and if you ever intend to see it insulated & heated...if that I'd consider a block or poured foundation + stick build. But, temper that with if a young single person, you will probably move in ~5 years so don't build a castle for the next guy either.

No gravel in the bottom of the hole. I would pour concrete on undisturbed soil.

I think the easiest pole hold-down detail is square-loops of metal strapping buried in the wet concrete and nailed to the sides of the post later on. Its undesirable to have this steel underground because it will corrode away to nothing, not to mention the corrosive treated wood, but then again its undesirable to have any wood underground too. Hopefully about the same lifespan. Or, you could try to source stainless strap & nails...Id go for hot dipped not electrogalvanized at minimum.

 

[Pechinger]

To me it doesn't sound like a good detail for the footing to be so high. Once you put your post's up on the footing you now have a post that is subject to lift due to frost heave. Leave your posts all the way down at frost line and use lift blocks to restrict frost from grabbing hold and lifting your post again. You didn't describe a detail for holding your post down to the concrete footing you describe, in case you where planing to imbed the post partly into the concrete I wouldn't do that either. If your posts are 12' above grade use the additional 2' when you go to ten foot clg to lower the footing to hopefully the 6' you require.

Thanks Chris,
I am new to this stuff. The reason i wanted to put concrete down and then set the post on the is I am not sure how deep the current posts are in the ground and I would like to re use them. Could you explain how the post will heave if it is done on top of the concrete, if it is in a sonotube. Essentially it would be one piece that went below the frost line.

 

[csp]

The original post made it sound like the plan was just to place the posts on top of the poured footer. In that case frost would just heave the post off of the footer just like it has already done.

Seems that you need to clarify how the sonotube (assuming filled with concrete) around the post will be tied into the footer.

 

[Chris705]

Correct as stated above, when the ground freezes it pushes outward on things, only way to go is upward. Think of road heaves that you have to deal with. The frozen ice/dirt will cling to the post and push up. Yes if you can fasten the post to the concrete it will prevent that uplift. I would think the posts were at least four feet in the ground to begin with. Upon disassembly you will find out.

 

[HELLSUNICORN]

Why not dig down 6-7 feet, pour concrete and then put a metal post holder on top of the concrete. This way you don't even have to mess with your walls. Just cut the post at the height you need and install the bracket into the concrete.

This is what I did on my pole barn addition and I have had no problems with it. I got the post holders form menards.

https://www.menards.com/main/buildi...4448482065-c-5718.htm?tid=1053851760259968763

 

[joe_padavano]

The house inspector said the frost depth is about 6'

SIX FEET!?!? Where the heck do you live?

 

[Jo Diesel]

I agree. Start with the lowest spot. I would get like 3 bottle jacks and some 6x6 timbers. Cut the timbers so you have 1 up top that hits like 3 trusses and then 1 on floor put floor jack floor then cut one that will fit from the jack to timber on cieling and put pressure on it then cut off post, dig and fill with concrete. Do not put them at you post, they will be in your way. Lower other posts to match first as you go along. I would do like 3 at a time.
I would not shorten your barn. A hoist needs 12', Most RV's or lifted trucks will need 12' I wish mine was 14'

 

[Marctrees]

Dis and re assemble??????

Sounds crazy to me.

Over and above all the work, you will end up with all your sheeting looking like 20 guys did a driveby w 20 Uzis.

NO WAY you'll be able to end up re using the holes.

Why has noone suggested like "sistering" new posts to the old ones?

Inside the building, auger down next to each post to wanted depth, slap new against old post, bolt or whatever together, doing this in conjunction with a leveling/ moving company.

Then maybe cutting off the old posts at grade level, naybe removing the part below grade I don't know, and block building level, then pour hioles full.

Some variation of that, again, advised by house leveling/ moving company.

Just an idea of the direction I would look into. Marc

 

[Marctrees]

But still, geez, if you have one corner currently 18" high, OMG, you must have roof leaks like crazy with everything beeing twisted ,partially pulled nails, loose sheeting screws, etc.

Am I eggagerating?

Pretty sure if insurance covered such a thing, they would total it.

Marc

 

[Pechinger]

Thanks for the replies guys,

Marctrees: The sheeting is old OSB, it would not be reused. The tin on the roof was the only "sheeting" to reuse. As stated, I would like to save the posts as I cannot afford new ones. Therefore putting new posts beside the old ones is not an option.

Joe Padavano: I live in Englehart, Ontario. In the dark blue area labelled as >48"

Hellunicorn: That may be a good option for me. Do you have a thread showing your pole barn build?
Jacking the barn up and using the metal brackets may be my best bet. What size hole/sonotube would I need for the brackets to go in?

I will try to upload some pics of it tonight.

 

[theoldwizard1]

6' is a long way into the ground!

WOW !! How far north are you ? Never heard of a frost depth more than 5' and even that is extremely deep !

My plan is to get 7' holes dug, add 12" gravel, and 2-3' of cement as a footing. I will then place the post on this footing (3-4' of wood in the ground depending on how deep I go with concrete) and back fill with gravel or cement. Does that sound like a good way of doing things?

You probably do NOT need the 2-3' of cement if the 12" of gravel is well packed. It is still a good idea but it only needs to be 1-2' thick.

Backing filling with gravel is best.



It is possible to remove and replace a post. It is a major pain in the ****, but it can be done ! You will probably have to remove some of the time and certain will have to have temporary support on that wall.

 

[HELLSUNICORN]

Sorry I was terrible about taking pictures when I poured the concrete. I can't find any of the holes. I used 12 inch sonotubes. I dug down about 40 inches. The holes were dug under the slab so when the slab was poured the holes were filled with concrete. When the slab was just right I stuck the brackets in the concrete and leveled them up. Worked out great. I went this route because if one of the poles ever rots I can replace it really easy.