Newly installed concrete issues, thoughts?

[RoyBell]

Hey all. I finally pulled the trigger on widening my driveway and putting a concrete shed pad in the back yard...along with a side walk around the side of my house.

I have a couple issues post pour now.

Issue #1. The poured without getting approval for the driveway from the village. I told them 3 times I had not gotten it yet, just the approval for the side walk and shed (2 different departments). I have texts to back this up with the contractor stating that it was all approved and ok despite me saying I never got the sign off. As such, they framed the Apron incorrectly. It's wider than I have on the drawing and wider than what the village will allow. The red line is what was shown on the drawings.

I think the driveway portion may be OK because it's currently 24' 6" at the sidewalk and I am allowed a max of 24'. I showed 23' on my drawing to match the angle cutting in on the other side.


Issue #2. I had a portion in front of the garage replaced because it cracked a couple years after it was installed. I had this drive put in roughly 5 years ago by the same contractor. They did a nice job finishing, and they weren't sure why it cracked. Regardless, I decided to go ahead and have it replaced at my expense since they were doing all the other work. My driveway is very flat so they originally pitched it twice. The Red line shows where the original control joint was and it was a low spot and diverted the water in the direction of the arrows.

When they put it back, they made it one square with no control joint. This bothers me because the square by the stairs is what cracked before. Now there is even less joints to crack. In addition to that, there is a small spot holding water, which you can see in the photo. Come winter time this will be a death wish when it ices over. Water can not flow towards the retaining wall because it gets higher towards the street before heading back downhill.



Issue #3: My backyard is a big slope. When I asked them about pouring a slab where my shed is currently (on blocks), he suggest moving it to the slope since it's unusable space and using the flat spot the shed is now for entertaining. I liked that idea a lot so I went with it. I made the pad 10x15 with plans on having a small over hang for wood/chairs. Basically making the shed 10x10 or so and having 5' overhang. I gave them anchor bolts and marked where to install.

Well, as you can see they did a **** job with the forms. When I questioned it they said you just pack a little dirt around the bottom. Once they stripped the forms you can see how much space there is. Roughly 7" from grade to the bottom of the concrete at the back spot. I asked a few people and they said I should build a retaining wall and fill with dirt to help from undermining. Now I am looking at more cost because they were too lazy to built forms into the ground. I am concerned doing that because most of the weight will be on the edges of the pad where the wall sits. And without concrete touching grade, will this post a structural issue? Concern 2 is an animal getting in the dirt and digging out all my stone. They love to dig in my back yard now.

And there is another low spot as you can see in the picture holding water. That part was going to be open with just a roof over it. Not as bad as the driveway because this won't get much use in winter and hopefully the roof will keep most of the water off of it. But still, annoying.



So what is everyones thoughts on this? They are a pretty big concrete company and they do a lot of work in the village. I was happy how they did the original driveway, minus the cracking. I have NOT paid them yet which is my only saving grace at this point. I got a hold of the salesman and we went over everything. He said he was going to talk to the village Friday. I texted him Friday afternoon asking if he talked to them with no response. I called this afternoon and it went straight to voice mail. Not sure if they are avoiding me or working on it.

Winters coming and I need to figure something out. Anytime I called the office during construction they told me I need to talk to the foreman or the salesman. Am I out of line to request the area holding water on the driveway to be replaced? I don't think that is acceptable. When I told him to look at it (when I was at work) he responded that it was because the forms were still in and the water couldn't get out. BS. It's about 1/4" low there and the form has no bearing on it.

It was poured last Tuesday so we are coming up on a week and the weather is starting to get nasty. Appreciate any suggestions.

 

[RWorth]

The slab is the ugliest pour I've seen in quite some time, and it is not stable, I wouldn't pay a penny until they fix it. the front puddle is also unacceptable and a hazard in my opinion. I'd have them fix it or don't pay and get somebody else to fix it.

 

[RoyBell]

Any thoughts on how they can fix the pad? It's in the back of the house and everything was wheel barrowed back there so it's not real easy to pull out and fix.

Driveway, I don't see any way to fix other than re-pouring it. Which ***** and is a lot of work.

The weather was kind of nasty when they were forming. I made them coffee to keep motivation high. I am a little put off by this whole thing.

I should mention the shed pad faces the neighbors house. I asked that they rub the sides and was told "we will do our best". Well, you can see what my neighbor has to look at now. Short of building a wall or putting shrubs around it, it looks like horse **** with the form lines, letalone the undermining.

 

[jhelrey]

The apron matches what I have. No cuts down the center, and a few like you have. Mine slopes from the South to the North. Mine puddles a tad in the center where the water runs but quickly melts. I also use salt when needed.

The shapes of the concrete on the driveway would bug me because I am OCD and not symmetrical.

The shed pad isn't a huge deal. Just find some free used retaining wall block and build something that goes around the shed. Fill the center in with dirt and plant flowers around the shed. Plus the flowers will help break up the rain and keep dirt from getting splashed back up. This will be stronger than just using a retaining wall anyways. Just ask the company to either pitch in the labor or the materials.

 

[steveo1o9]

Seems pretty unprofessional for them to do the work before the job was approved, and even more unprofessional to not follow the plans. The slab for the shed is beyond ugly but since it is so thick and will most likely not be supporting any heavy loads it should be structurally fine. Hopefully there are not any other voids like that under the slab, time will tell. Wouldn't take much to parge the sides to clean that up whether it be you or they come back and fix this for you. Regardless I wouldn't pay them a cent until you are happy with the outcome. May want to get the village involved to make sure they will accept the work out front. Last thing you want is for them to come after you to have it fixed down the road.

 

[matt_i]

#1 could be fixed by professional saw cutting provided it doesn't damage the sidewalk but I'd bet they would cut right thru the walk on a single line. I don't think it would hurt it.

#3 could be fixed with the segmented wheel on an angle grinder and some careful hand blending of the surface + a rub brick to finish. They should have ripped sanded plywood to make the form but went cheap with rounded edge 2x material. I would just cut the sod, build up the grade somewhat, and then replace the sod. Come spring it will all stitch back together nicely.

#2 is tear out and repour. That's where I'd focus my energy.

 

[ard]

what do you have IN WRITING????

Was there agreememtn that the redone section of the driveway was to shed water as youve indicated in the photos?

IMO you need to build a documentary trail- complain about issues in writing (like youve done in this thread). Try and get written or email responses. If push comes to shove, and you refuse to pay for the job (PLEASE tell us you havent paid them in full) and they play hardball, it will be essential to have documents. What was agreed to before the pour and what the issues were afterwards.

These kind of details I will always have specificed in the project documents.

whatever you do, if they come back on the property, EVERYTHING they are planning to do should be documented in writing.

Finally I agree #2 is a repour and they will fight this tooth and nail (IMO). This was an issue for you before- you paid to fix it and they failed. Redo it.

GL

 

[RoyBell]

To answer some questions

1) I haven't paid them a dime, not money down or post pour.

2) The finish on the drive/apron is a california finish. You can't just saw cut a section off because edge wouldn't be finished and it would look terrible imo.

3) Half the people say the shed pad is not stable, the other half say it's fine. I don't have any real good pre-pour pixtures. However, the stone was not down at the grade on my couple pictures. I think when they start wheel barrowing the concrete in it pushed all the stone to the bottom. The held 4" depth until the drop off. Then they tapered it so the concrete could fill in at the edge.

Either way, for me to start re-grading is a big deal and then I will have a hell of a time cutting grass with steep angles right off the pad.

4) The village won't accept the Apron as-is. I met the inspector and he wouldn't sign off on it since it was too wide. He was trying to get a hold of concrete company to let them know that. I asked what happens if I just leave it. He said the village would start fining me.

5) I have the standard contract which doesn't say much. Just the scope of work and payment due on day of pour and the don't warranty cracks, heaving, etc. The replacement section was not on the original contract or any other written contract because it was talked about at a later date. It was on their invoice as a change order though.

I do have on text that they would "do their best to address the area of the shed pad above grade". As you can see, zero was done to address it. I also have on text me saying 3 times that the driveway inspection report wasn't done yet.

I have created a date by date list of events should it come to that.

 

[RoyBell]

Was there agreememtn that the redone section of the driveway was to shed water as youve indicated in the photos?

I think it's generally assumed that putting in a new driveway it should shed water and not puddle. That shouldn't need to be written down.

 

[ItsNemo]

This is all going to amount to going to court. If you don't pay, they'll put a lien on you for the money. If you do pay, they won't fix a damn thing and you'll have to take legal action on the poor quality work.

Either way you're screwed. I would milk them for all I can before paying (as much fixed as they're willing to do), then **** it up and the rest is your problem unfortunately. The only way you'd luck out is if they never asked for payment lol

 

[Dr Stan]

Unfortunately I have to agree that this will go to court. My recommendation is to play offense and file a suit in small claims court to get his attention. The contractor flat out screwed-up. The one end of the shed pad is below grade and even using pressure treated lumber you'll be fighting rot.

There should have been a lot more dirt work prior to the shed pour. Leveling up the back yard would have eliminated the issues.

One thought: what is the set back requirement? Looks awfully close to the property line to me.

If the contractor had to use manual wheelbarrows instead of ones powered by small engines that would immediately call into attention the level of professionalism of the contractor.

 

[RoyBell]

I hope it doesn't go to court. I just emailed the village and 10 minutes later the concrete guy called me saying he was there talking to all the departments and wanted me to confirm some dimensions. So, I am hopeful this will move in the right direction. I have no problem paying once everything is resolved.

As for the shed, it is 6' off the back line and 3' off the side line. It was approved that way. There is a 5' easement on the back line and I held it another foot closer to house since it really starts to drop off those couple feet.

I only have a 36" gate. to access the back yard. Not sure how wide those motor wheel barrows are. Maybe they did use them for the concrete, I wasn't there for that.

 

[Playwme]

There's nothing unprofessional about a push barrow. Motorized is useful if going up a large hill with the concrete, but otherwise the push barrow wins all day long.

 

[PWC Repair]

I'm no engineer but I feel like I have "un"common sense. I see what they were trying to do with the shed slab and you're going to have issues down the road. You absolutely can't pour on a hillside without a footer. What's keeping the heave and thaw from moving that top layer of dirt and falling out from under the slab? It also should have been sitting up above the grade on the high end. Every time it rains, the water will wash down right up against your base plate and siding thus rotting it out or making it plenty soft enough for the termites to enjoy. It could still be used as is if you just run a course of blocks first on that side. The landscaping block to hide the slab, backfilled with dirt then topped off with vegetation is actually a great idea. This will look nice and keep everything up under the slab where it belongs. That's what I would do. Also even as it sits it will be plenty stable for a lot of years......have you ever tried moving a slab of concrete? Taking people to court is nasty business, be nice, talk it out, come to a solution both parties can agree on. Good luck.

 

[steveo1o9]

Every time it rains, the water will wash down right up against your base plate and siding thus rotting it out or making it plenty soft enough for the termites to enjoy. It could still be used as is if you just run a course of blocks first on that side.

At first glance I didn't even notice the uphill slope, I was focused on the ugly edges. You will absolutely have problems down the road with water running into the shed and your seating area. But I am not sure if that was discussed in your layout. I assume they were there to pour concrete not regrade your backyard. Poor execution and something that they should have brought up.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

Have them cut the driveway as you have marked. I wouldn't have made that small triangle piece, the corners will probably crack. You didn't mention it but not much can be done now.
The pad for the shed I'd lower the ground at the top so it's lower than the slab. They may be able to grind the sides or something. Fill in on the low side with gravel and then soil.

 

[RoyBell]

I'm no engineer but I feel like I have "un"common sense. I see what they were trying to do with the shed slab and you're going to have issues down the road. You absolutely can't pour on a hillside without a footer. What's keeping the heave and thaw from moving that top layer of dirt and falling out from under the slab? It also should have been sitting up above the grade on the high end. Every time it rains, the water will wash down right up against your base plate and siding thus rotting it out or making it plenty soft enough for the termites to enjoy. It could still be used as is if you just run a course of blocks first on that side. The landscaping block to hide the slab, backfilled with dirt then topped off with vegetation is actually a great idea. This will look nice and keep everything up under the slab where it belongs. That's what I would do. Also even as it sits it will be plenty stable for a lot of years......have you ever tried moving a slab of concrete? Taking people to court is nasty business, be nice, talk it out, come to a solution both parties can agree on. Good luck.

You contradict yourself. First you say I need a footing, then you say to just build a wall and back fill.

At first glance I didn't even notice the uphill slope, I was focused on the ugly edges. You will absolutely have problems down the road with water running into the shed and your seating area. But I am not sure if that was discussed in your layout. I assume they were there to pour concrete not regrade your backyard. Poor execution and something that they should have brought up.

I was not expecting it to be that low at the one corner. While I am concerned about water going on the pad, I believe it will be very little. The angle towards to fence is greater so I think most will flow that direction first. I was going to put some stone around that edge to act as drainage. We did not really discuss the pad other than it was for a future shed. Either way, being below grade is not something I think anyone would ask for. That, to me, is secondary to the fact that the concrete is more or less just sitting on some stone , on a hill. I could absolutely see it sliding down the hill eventually. Not sure if that is reality or not because I am not a concrete engineer.

 

[RoyBell]

I did text the concrete guy (to keep everything in writing) about the outcome of the meeting with village. He just said they are sticking to the dimensions for the Apron, but the width and drainage of the driveway is OK. There was another issue that the village thought I was only making my driveway 24' wide when it was really supposed to be 26' wide. They were concerned about the drainage since the driveway was higher than grade that close to the property line. I knew that would be a non-issue and they didn't end up making it into one.

 

[PWC Repair]

You contradict yourself. First you say I need a footing, then you say to just build a wall and back fill.

What I meant was that since it's already there with no footer, and also no good inexpensive way to add one, you build a short landscape block retaining wall. As it rains the backfill dirt will settle in and "flow" into the voids with nowhere else to go. A footer is below grade and keeps the base under the slab supporting it as it should. The added on block wall will help serve this purpose. I have done something similar with my shed here. Dirt was washing out from under one back corner. I stacked a row of cinder blocks and backfilled with dirt/clay a bit at a time. After it would rain you could see how the dirt was washing back up under the slab as it could no longer wash out away from it. After a few goes it's all fixed back up.

 

[RoyBell]

2 days after last communication. I called and left a message to call me back. Weather is getting nasty out

 

[58Yeoman]

I think PWC has the right idea, although I would try to have the concrete company do a retaining wall in concrete and finish it off nicely, or footings for a block wall far enough away to fill with dirt as PWC stated. I would think that would be cheaper for them to do rather than remove the slab and re-do it.

Good luck.

 

[ard]

2 days after last communication. I called and left a message to call me back. Weather is getting nasty out

Some point you need to stop with conversations and texts, and move to documents. At the end of the day, when THEY get nasty with you, it will all be about 'you signed this' and the chit chat wont matter.

I'd take the time to put together a description of the job, what was contracted, what was in the drawings.... the time line, the issues discussed prior to pour, then the faults you see now, and what you will accept to fix the job, all in writing. The sooner you document all this the better. Include screen shots of text messages....include the pictures in this thread.... Just to have in your hands.

While some might say this is aggressive, it will be- in a 2,3,6 page document, the entire basis for a case. SOMEONE high up at said 'big company' will need to see all this, and then say to your job foreman, "WTF did you guys do???". Followed by "I need to meet with RoyBell and see what we need to do to fix this"

Thats what Id do. When you need to send it, will depend on when/if the guy calls you back.

GL

PS add a picture of a frozen puddle in that low spot....

 

[RoyBell]

I have already created an entire document account of actions. Every conversation call, text and email down to the second. From the first meeting to now. It's all on record with screen shots of texts and phone logs to back it up.

 

[HotrodHR]

Request a variance in writing for the apron being "too" wide. Apologize for the oversight in the apron size and state that you will landscape the area appropriately to ensure drive is aesthetically pleasing and fits with the character of the neighborhood.

If this doesn't doesn't work then, short of a complete redo, cut the apron at an angle, but stop at the sidewalk. There should be no reason to cut the outside corner of the new pour as indicated in your pic. I'm not sure why the small triangle is there, but again, short of a redo you'll have to live with it.

The slab next to the garage with the puddle would have to be re-poured. I'm not sure if that will solve the problem since it looks close to being level with the old slab next to it.

You've gotten plenty of suggestions for the backyard slab... terraced decorative interlocking blocks bacfilled, compacted about half way up and finished with topsoil and some shrubs.

The problem with the entire job is the aggravation, mess, inconvenience and potential for questionable rework... I'm sure with the weather getting crappy they will stall and make excuses to avoid doing anything.

As suggested document x 3... it probably wouldn't hurt to talk with an attorney, a couple of hundred bucks, a "nice" note on letterhead sent certified, return receipt could do wonders.

Good luck...

 

[RoyBell]

Bringing this one back from the dead.

Got a call from the concrete company a couple weeks ago after not hearing from them since the end of November. Weather is nice so now they want their money.

Met the guy on site to go over the issues in person finally. Says he will talk to village and call me back. I show him the pad, he says all you have to do is put some dirt and grass.

I get 2 landscapers to look at it and they said no way that won't help. Concrete guy calls me back last week and says village isn't budging and they will have to replace. Also the section that isn't moving water will need to be replaced or drain cut in. I don't see how you can cut a drain in so it's getting replaced. I told him what the landscapers told me and he doesn't believe me.

I am meeting the village engineer tomorrow to get his opinion on the shed pad. Concrete guy was supposed to meet me in person saturday to discuss further and he never did.

The saga continues.

 

[RoyBell]

Also, the good news is I believe they are past their lien rights at this point.

 

[RoyBell]

So they came yesterday and ripped it all out and replaced.

1) I don't believe they got it inspected prior to pour, despite me telling them that it had to.
2) I watched them on my video from work and they put a layer of stone down. They did not disturb too much under the old stuff, but they did not re-compact it. Not sure if that will be an issue.
3) Their repair to the shed pad I am unsure of. I mean I guess it works, but now I have to figure out how to make it not look like horse ****.
4) Water appears to drain properly now. Got some rain last night. Small spot that holds but nothing like before.

 

[Dr Stan]

I'm glad you were able to get the contractor to address at least some of the issues. It does look much better than before.

You'll still have to address the slope in your backyard by removing enough dirt from the one end to get the top of the slab at least 4" above grade to prevent water intrusion.

The other end needs a fair amount of fill.

Not as good as if they did the work correctly in the first place, but better than before.

BTW, I stand by my comment RE hand wheel barrows. A professional company uses its resources as efficiently & effectively as possible. Sucking the energy out of its personnel by using ancient technology does neither. After very much of that misuse of the labor they will find some where else to work. In addition, not long into the shift they will be too tired to perform anywhere near their capability. Its called management in contrast to bean counting.

 

[RoyBell]

Yes, I am going to have to do a little work around the "repair" but not nearly as much as I would had done before. May put some timber on the ledge now and finish it up that way. Either way, I can at least start building the shed without worry of the whole slab needing to come out.

I did meet the village engineer last week. While he did say the pour was sloppy and that I would need to find a way to stop the stone from spilling out. It is structurally OK and did not require any type of footing because it was a "floating slab".

As far as the wheel barrows go. They were actually pretty damn fast with them. I didn't have the camera in back setup to watch that part of the action, but they were moving them pretty quickly. They did the part by the garage with wheel barrows too.

I plan to pull the video and time lapse it because it was pretty awesome to watch.

 

[rburke65]

That is a much better outcome than I ever thought you'd achieve. Good for you.

 

[RoyBell]

Well, holding back 100% of the funds definitely helped in my case. I thought I would never hear from them either. I am glad they at least made things right. It took a lot of effort on my part though as they would had done bare minimum just to get done with the job.

 

[GMCGarage]

I have never had a concrete guy do any work without at least some money down. The drive looks good, at least you were holding all the high cards.

Shed is terrible. Maybe you could use some landscape blocks and taper the slope, connect to the slab to stabilize them.

 

[RoyBell]

If someone wants money down, that's a red flag to me and I don't deal with them. That means they don't have enough cash flow to float whatever project they are doing for you.

 

[nes999]

I would check if you can use texts in court. The company I work for lost several suits since our evidence was text and not email. So now everything is emailed.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

 

[red61cj5]

The guy who put my floor in my shop didn't ask for any money until after the work was done and cured. I actually had to call him several times to come by and get paid! He was always too busy to stop by.

 

[AZ Pete]

looks like you are on the road to recovery.....what is the status of payment?

 

[RoyBell]

I called the village to find out if everything is OK. Once I get the OK that I passed, I will wait for their call and pay them. They said they will call me back Monday to confirm if everything is OK with the pour.

I saw on the video today that the village showed up- because my neighbor keeps bitching about water flow and they were talking. I keep telling him that he needs to move his downspouts cause he has them pointed right at his basement which is why he is getting water there. Plus he needs to replenish about 4" of soil next to his house that has eroded over time to soak up and divert water!!

 

[EOC_Jason]

Maybe use a diamond cup on an angle grinder to smooth down the seams on the shed pour? Finish it off with one of those hand-held rub bricks to get it all smooth.

You're going to have to do some shifting of dirt around the whole thing but it's not critical and you can just do it as the weather is nice and maybe if you can get some loads of free dirt here & there...

 

[RoyBell]

Had the landscaper come by and work his magic. Looks pretty good now. I was thinking maybe put some wood lattice up once I build my shed to hide the ugly wall. I will have to see how that looks. Otherwise maybe overhang my bottom plate a bit and carry whatever I use for siding material all the way to the curb. I think that may be hard to achieve with the slope and partial curb though.

In other news, my neighbor called the village and complained that he was getting water in his basement from the new driveway. The water flow has never changed, but since I now have a new driveway, it's an opportunity for him to complain. Long story short, now I need to put a french drain in along my driveway to help with water run-off from my driveway or the village won't approve the driveway as-is....Despite water flow never changing.

On the bright side, I can now focus on building the shed.