No contractor license question

[vrinner]

So another thread got me thinking about this...

Say you have work done and you have a handshake agreement with a friend to do the work or maybe a very simple document (not official contract looking). Lets say it's something big like a large outdoor patio or put in a small stacked retaining wall.

Now lets say he does the work, no issues, built to code, as per plans and the city signs off on the build (permitted builds).

I know that it's a bad idea to do big projects without a contract but I often have my gardener of 20+ years do $500 to $10K projects around my house. Can the city somehow go to my gardener, friend or me for doing work without a contractors license after the project is complete?

 

[ycgoat]

I am on the other side of the country, but here yes you can get in trouble for doing business with out a license either by locality for no business license or by the state for lack of a Contracting and or tradesman license. Although, I have known several people who do handyman type services or bathroom renovations and do not have any local or state licenses. I do not know of anyone getting in trouble for it.

 

[beemerphile]

All licensing questions are dependent on location.

The answer may start on Page 62 of this document for yours. My state only licenses GC's, plumbers, electricians, septic installers, and mechanical / HVAC. Yours seems to license every trade imaginable. How or if they enforce is also local. Reading the linked document, it seems to usually start from a complaint against the non-licensed person. Might happen because a licensed contractor didn't like the unfair competition and ratted him out.

 

[Renegade1LI]

The few times I've seen an unlicensed contractor get in trouble was for taking the money & not completing the work, although once was when a worker got hurt. it's all good till something goes wrong.

 

[jack stand]

The licensing (contracting and home improvement) that I've been involved with didn't ask one question that involved any phase, trade or materials for residential construction. Commercial work only required a regular business license.
It was completely a law type test about the legal amount of a deposit that you could ask for, and the consumers rights.
However it was a tidy bounty for both the state and a "fund" for scammed consumers. It also provided a VERY false impression to the public that someone licensed knew what end of the nail went in the wood first or the difference between 2x4 or a 2x12.
Just another cost/tax passed on to the public.

 

[dcg9381]

Can the city somehow go to my gardener, friend or me for doing work without a contractors license after the project is complete?

It depends on your location.

Here, there is no such thing as a "general contractor" license. We have a few licensed trades - like plumber, electrician, septic engineer, septic installer etc... But there is no license for guys pouring concrete or doing landscaping. Heck, there is no contractor license for individuals that build houses (GCs).

In my area, if something was done incorrectly and it became a code issue (which would be triggered by an inspection) - the person on the hook is the home owner. They do not pursue contractors, they pursue property owners. Most of the liability is during construction - something like hitting a water main, or back feeding the grid - they'd be after someone for a claim on general liability insurance.

We had an unlicensed contractor get hurt removing a mirror. Our homeowners insurance paid the claim for his medical bills.

 

[Meursault74]

start reading here on Owner-Builder for your own residence. Seems you can act as the general contractor on you own primary place.

Page Not Found - CSLB -CSLB

www.cslb.ca.gov

 

[Hank11]

To get a correct answer you really should consult a California licensed lawyer who deals with this regularly.

 

[vrinner]

So when I did my garage I did it under the Owner-Builder rules. The city made that very clear so I think it's OK there.

I'm mainly curious because my neighbor is making noises like he is going to go after my workers doing other work that didn't require permits but still big.

I'll talk to my lawyer...good point.

 

[Wheelingit]

The biggest problem here is insurance. If you hire a person without insurance and he gets hurt you are 100% liable for all medical bills and possible disability or death. Don't go there.

 

[driftpin]

Florida requires licenses for many of the trades. G.C. 's are required to be licensed. Also there are many undocumented people working without the required paperwork. When the INS and local county sheriffs would perform a sweep at a big job site, like a housing development or an industrial worksite. the illegal workers would drop their tools and run to their cars. Some would get caught, some not.

In Florida, the registered property owner can act as his/her own contractor on their home, but not on a rental.

I carried several professional licenses working in Florida doing inspections and plans review, besides other professional licenses.

 

[rharman]

The biggest problem here is insurance. If you hire a person without insurance and he gets hurt you are 100% liable for all medical bills and possible disability or death. Don't go there.

^^ This, ABSOLUTELY ^^

Check cslb.ca.gov for licensing.

We always be sure the contractor is licensed and insured. I call their agent to be sure they have valid/current workers comp.

 

[Jackfre]

I have an assortment of licenses in CA. GC, Plumbing, electrical (partner), solar & a couple others. I left the business in ‘85. The CA Contractors License Board is run by the Dept of Consumer Protection. You have to take a contracting business test and a trade specific test to get the license. Different jurisdictions behave differently as to their treatment of license requirements. Everything pretty much boils down to personal liability, both for the contractor and owner. We have I think all seen terrible things in the contracting world and both sides getting mistreated. Wheeling it and r Harman‘s are most succinct. As the owner, you have to make sure the vendors are being paid, the work is being done in a timely and appropriate fashion and that you are protected through the contractors insurance and backing that up with whatever you need to protect yourself and your estate from mishaps. Trust, but verify and then back it up really well. I think that applies to CA and pretty much everywhere else.

 

[Dig Doug]

In California you can Hire anyone to do anything !

but
all the responsibility is on you! And your insurance!

someone gets hurt
work doesn’t comply to standards
work fails down the road

 

[Spencer Was Here]

In Michigan, contractors offering alterations or repairs totalling $600 or more in labor and materials are required to be licensed.

I have to imagine that California would have equivalent or stricter rules.

Here is a link to "Helpful Information for Homeowners" on Michigan's licensing website:
https://www.michigan.gov/lara/burea...s/lic-info/helpful-information-for-homeowners

 

[liliysdad]

I am in full support of doing things the way you want, without asking permission or paying tribute to the government. With that liberty, however, comes the responsibility to handle your own business if something goes wrong, and not running to the government for help.

 

[firebirdparts]

So another thread got me thinking about this...

Say you have work done and you have a handshake agreement with a friend to do the work or maybe a very simple document (not official contract looking). Lets say it's something big like a large outdoor patio or put in a small stacked retaining wall.

Now lets say he does the work, no issues, built to code, as per plans and the city signs off on the build (permitted builds).

I know that it's a bad idea to do big projects without a contract but I often have my gardener of 20+ years do $500 to $10K projects around my house. Can the city somehow go to my gardener, friend or me for doing work without a contractors license after the project is complete?

Generally, the whole process of licensing depends on prosecuting people who don't comply. For whatever reasons, and there are several, the licensing authority has every intention of catching and prosecuting people who don't hold a license. There might be some exceptions to that, but I don't see how. They won't bother you.

Nobody would have a license to do anything if the AHJ didn't require it. They require it. There are penalties, always, for doing something without a license where a license is offered. You can't even fish without a license, and they sell fish for 50 cents at the store.

 

[Zeke]

In CA the license board can go after an unlicensed individual for just advertising. There is no penalty for a home or business owner for doing business with an unlicensed individual or company. Other than the risks, it's fine. You take many of the same risks dealing with a licensed contractor. In construction and improvement, there is no such thing as an 'unlicensed contractor'. At least no by literal definition.

Anyone can 'contract' for work where the aggregate of labor and materials does not exceed $500. They still can't advertise.

I have held a license since 1982. I did work unlicensed for 12 years before that. Things were very loose in the 70's and beforehand.

More important is to see that anyone doing work is covered by insurance, worker's comp and liability. There is no connection between the ins cos and the license board other than the license board listing you WC if you don't file exempt (work alone). They don't list your liability. A contractor has to carry a bond in the amount of 15K, which is listed. No bond, no license.

 

[Aaron_W]

California does recognize a handyman category of worker, but it only applies to very small work, as I recall jobs under $500 including materials and labor. I have no idea of penalties or enforcement.

As others have mentioned you can do work on your own house but become an employer with all the related responsibilities for any workers involved in the work, so hiring some guy off the street could potentially become expensive and require a fair bit of documentation which I'm sure many hiring pick up labor fail to do.


Edit, I see Zeke responded while I was typing with a far more detailed post.

 

[duneslider]

I know of one instance where a homeowner hired a guy to do some drywall work for him. They guy did good work, did drywall for a living, this was a side job for him, he wasn't licensed, and the bigger thing was had no insurance. They guy ended up cutting his hand pretty bad and needed a bunch of stitches, he ended up coming back to the HO and the HO's home owners insurance had to pay for the injury. All said and done the HO had to hire someone else to finish the work, his HO Insurance went up, and he ended up paying more than if he just hired someone insured to begin with.

Anyway, never heard of an HO getting in trouble for hiring someone that wasn't licensed. I would be more worried about the insurance thing. I don't think you have to be licensed to do "landscaping/gardening" work in my state.

I would very much be concerned about insurance and if it requires a permit you may want to look at that too but it sounds like you are getting permits when required.

 

[Rc_Guy]

So another thread got me thinking about this...

Say you have work done and you have a handshake agreement with a friend to do the work or maybe a very simple document (not official contract looking). Lets say it's something big like a large outdoor patio or put in a small stacked retaining wall.

Now lets say he does the work, no issues, built to code, as per plans and the city signs off on the build (permitted builds).

I know that it's a bad idea to do big projects without a contract but I often have my gardener of 20+ years do $500 to $10K projects around my house. Can the city somehow go to my gardener, friend or me for doing work without a contractors license after the project is complete?

If you can do the work yourself legally where you live your gardener is your friend helping you.

 

[vrinner]

Lots of great info here and a lot of it has to do with issues before and during the work. I think those point are very clear and the whole liability thing is definitely a concern, especially for bigger projects.

My main question was about what about "after" the work is complete. For whatever reason, if the city comes out a year later after the work is complete (lets say it was permitted work and I got permits or work that didn't need a permit) and says hey, who put in that small retaining wall or who put up that patio cover. And it's my gardener or maybe me and some guys from the HD parking lot who put it in, can they somehow go after them? I'm not worried about the HD guys, more my gardener who is really like a family member at this point.

 

[duneslider]

Nope, they can't go after him. For all anyone knows it was you a buddy that did it. Or the guy who did it moved out of state and isn't around anymore. I have never heard of the city going after anyone, if the work was permitted and signed off its done. If the work didn't need a permit then they have no claim to what was done or who did it. I had a large rock wall built in my yard during the construction of my house. city didn't care who did it since it didn't require a permit. I only had to submit info on the trades that required inspections per the permit.

 

[dcg9381]

And it's my gardener or maybe me and some guys from the HD parking lot who put it in, can they somehow go after them?

No, they go after the owner that executed on the work.
The reality of how likely this is differs greatly between locations. Around here, once work is complete it's hard to tell when it was done.
The big risks here are around septic because resale requires an inspection... But if you put in an "unpermitted" porch, no one is going to find that as long as it doesn't encroach on a setback or easement - which again, it'd likely be found during a survey for resale.

 

[LeonardY]

I'm mainly curious because my neighbor is making noises like he is going to go after my workers doing other work that didn't require permits but still big.

Why is this any of your neighbor's business. Did the work effect his property?

My main question was about what about "after" the work is complete. For whatever reason, if the city comes out a year later after the work is complete (lets say it was permitted work and I got permits or work that didn't need a permit) and says hey, who put in that small retaining wall or who put up that patio cover. And it's my gardener or maybe me and some guys from the HD parking lot who put it in, can they somehow go after them? I'm not worried about the HD guys, more my gardener who is really like a family member at this point.

If the wall didn't require a permit, then there is no reason for the city to be involved.

BTW. I went to the permit office to talk to them about a retaining wall. The permit person was really nice. She explained that what I wanted was a garden wall not a retaining wall. And no permit is required for a garden wall below 2 feet.

 

[vrinner]

Why is this any of your neighbor's business. Did the work effect his property?


If the wall didn't require a permit, then there is no reason for the city to be involved.

BTW. I went to the permit office to talk to them about a retaining wall. The permit person was really nice. She explained that what I wanted was a garden wall not a retaining wall. And no permit is required for a garden wall below 2 feet.

Long story on the neighbor thing that I really cant go into at this time, once it's all over (win or lose), I'll give all the details but lets just say that it's been a rough couple of years with them.

Also my city has been way more than cool about all this stuff and very clear with me on what I needed permits for and what I didn't so I'm all good on that front.

Thanks everyone for the answers/suggestions.

 

[NDJ]

I know of one instance where a homeowner hired a guy to do some drywall work for him. They guy did good work, did drywall for a living, this was a side job for him, he wasn't licensed, and the bigger thing was had no insurance. They guy ended up cutting his hand pretty bad and needed a bunch of stitches, he ended up coming back to the HO and the HO's home owners insurance had to pay for the injury. All said and done the HO had to hire someone else to finish the work, his HO Insurance went up, and he ended up paying more than if he just hired someone insured to begin with.

I know a guy like that. Drywalls as an employee during the week, freelances on the weekend. The weekend is where he makes $$. If he ever sued for any injury he would be hard pressed to get another gig. Word of mouth.

 

[walta]

"Now lets say he does the work, no issues, built to code, as per plans and the city signs off on the build (permitted builds)."

Seems to me the premise of your question is wrong.

In theory the city should not issue a permit to an unlicensed contractor. If the home owner pulls the permit the city makes it clear that only the home owners is allowed to perform the work no unlicensed contractor allowed.

If a contractor lied on the permit application about being licensed or if a home owner allowed someone other than himself to do the work then yes, the city could make there live miserable.



Walta

 

[bigdav160]

It all smells like a job security racket. Lobby the politicians to create laws/rules to limit the competition and make sure the rules benefit the contractors.

 

[Rc_Guy]

It all smells like a job security racket. Lobby the politicians to create laws/rules to limit the competition and make sure the rules benefit the contractors.

Or make sure nobody dies because of shoddy workmanship or poor design. I can think of About 95 families that wish the rules were enforced a little better.

 

[Kpaige]

Highly depends on your area and ordinance etc but generally in my area Mn a home owner is allowed to do any and all work permitted of course. So if you are assisting no problem. I have worked on very large "homeowner" projects at my house and at friends. Have dealt with inspectors and such at all of them and never an issue. In a few cases the inspectors were relieved to know the homeowner had a knowledgable friend in on the work as it reassures the inspectors of quality.

 

[LeonardY]

In a few cases the inspectors were relieved to know the homeowner had a knowledgable friend in on the work as it reassures the inspectors of quality.

That's the way my permit office is. When I pulled a permit to upgrade my electrical panel. They asked if I had a licensed electrician helping me. I said yes. They said "Great. we don't want anyone to get hurt."

 

[jetnow1]

In CT you write a check to get registered. No test or qualifications needed as long as the check clears. Part of it goes into a fund
for reimbursing homeowners who get taken by registered contractors, no protection for you if you hire an unregistered contractor.
Worker Comp is required unless the contractor is a one man band. In 20 years I have had one homeowner ask for a certificate of
insurance.

 

[rayra]

So when I did my garage I did it under the Owner-Builder rules. The city made that very clear so I think it's OK there.

I'm mainly curious because my neighbor is making noises like he is going to go after my workers doing other work that didn't require permits but still big.

I'll talk to my lawyer...good point.

Better instead to have your lawyer pre-emptively talk to your **** neighbor about what the penalties are for unwarranted harassment and liability for any costs you occur due to his specious complaints.
/besides making damned sure what requires permits and what doesn't.
General if it is something physically connected to the residence or public utilities, you're going to need a permit.
In Santa Clarita / north L.A. County, they even required pulling a permit to change out a toilet.
But they were fine with my doing all the work to replace a water heater, as long as I met all the new code requirements / necessary upgrades.

/while you are at it, find out what the code property wall height requirements are on your problem neighbor's side and max the height. Then add a spite hedge. Wall that ******* out of your life, as much as possible.