No cost Solar; Anyone tried it?

[bushmechanic]

I personally know someone (I spend quite a bit of time there) who had a solar company come out, build him a 150X80 (or thereabouts) foot partially enclosed canopy (ground cover and all), wire up all the lights, put in sidewalks; the works.

He never paid a dime, and he gets checks in the mail on occasion.

So, no these aren't all scams. Some will really get you some serious benefits, and some will get you a brand new shop. The same guy was trying to sell me on it, but I didn't want someone else's stuff on my roof; free building or not.

To be fair, I don't think the company has ever come out to tinker with the panels. He's been pretty much left alone. They just sit up there and pay off.

All that said, there will be TONS of scams out there. So, only go with an offer you know someone's taken, and only if they've had it for a little while so you can tell what it's going to be like, and whether or not it's a scam.

This is, however, a legitimate business model.

 

[tyme2par4]

Are they all Scams? No. Are they great deals? Definitely not.

Some companies are better than others, but you really have to go through the contract with a fine tooth comb. One of the big national installers structures you contract so that your payment increases every year. If your utility prices don't increase by the same amount or more, you end up paying more than you would if you didn't have solar.
The other hurdles is if you plan to sell the house in the next 20 years. The buyer will have to approve of the contract, and get approved by the company. Personally, there is no way I would buy a house that had a PPA solar install. Way too many headaches.

You are far better off taking out a loan. They have low interest renewable energy loans available. That way you always know your payment, and once you've paid off the loan, you the system is yours and anything it produces is free power.

My dad and I actually installed a 6kW system on his roof last fall for only about $8k. It's really quite easy for someone with basic building and electrical knowledge. I happen to be in the industry, so it was even easier.

 

[6768rogues]

If you live in a place like the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia where the sun shines all the time and where the socialistic tax rates have made electricity super expensive, solar might be a good idea with plenty of subsidies. For anyone who lives where electricity is affordable, the sun does not shine every day, and snow covers the panels so they make zero electricity for three months or more of the year, forget about solar. That is unless you want to change your lifestyle so that you are essentially living off a car battery. Not me.

 

[ard]

Kalifornia here.

Solar in end of 2009, already broke even. 7.5kw system, self installed- net cost was 24k after rebates. Ground mount (roof *****)

Bills dropped from ~6500 a year to 2000-2500 a year.

And no, not all electric. Propane heat, water and cooking. Electric AC (big time) plus a 400 ft well, swimming pool.

 

[tyme2par4]

If you live in a place like the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia where the sun shines all the time and where the socialistic tax rates have made electricity super expensive, solar might be a good idea with plenty of subsidies. For anyone who lives where electricity is affordable, the sun does not shine every day, and snow covers the panels so they make zero electricity for three months or more of the year, forget about solar. That is unless you want to change your lifestyle so that you are essentially living off a car battery. Not me.

You clearly have very limited knowledge of solar...

 

[ForceFed70]

You clearly have very limited knowledge of solar...

He may have limited knowledge, but you can't really refute the message. Some places it makes a lot more sense to go solar than others.

 

[Git]

Don't be so quick to write-off solar because of your location

(First of all, I would never advocate leasing the panels. For me, it only made sense to pay for the system outright.)

You can use PVWatts to play around with to see if Solar will work in your area

http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php

For example, if I take the data for the 18 Panels that I have on my south-west facing roof and use an arbitrary location in Pennsylvania, those panels will still generate almost 81% of what they will produce in S Cal. Plus your state may still be offering incentives, the State of CA is not

These numbers are on the conservative side:
(18) 320 panels in S Cal = 9,135 kWh annually
(18) 320 panels in PA = 7,424 kWh annually

the pic is what I entered on the PVWatts website

 

[jives]

Currently in NY we are paying .17cents a KW. With 4hrs of useable sun a day average it would take quite a long time to pay for its self. Not including equipment failure or maintenance.

I'm in central NY. Incentives/credits brought our 8.1kW system to about $12,000, which we are paying by a NYSERDA loan attached to our NYSEG bill. Payback time is 11 years, and yes, we are on track for that. Panel productivity (90%) is guaranteed for 20 years. So, 9+ years of "free" electricity, as long as the net metering holds up. At the time the warranty runs out we'll need a new roof, and solar shingles will be cheap.

 

[Showkey]

If you live in a place like the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia where the sun shines all the time and where the socialistic tax rates have made electricity super expensive, solar might be a good idea with plenty of subsidies. For anyone who lives where electricity is affordable, the sun does not shine every day, and snow covers the panels so they make zero electricity for three months or more of the year, forget about solar. That is unless you want to change your lifestyle so that you are essentially living off a car battery. Not me.

^^^^^^^^^^^^This pretty much covers it.......................

 

[ard]

If you live in a place like the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia where the sun shines all the time and where the socialistic tax rates have made electricity super expensive, solar might be a good idea with plenty of subsidies. For anyone who lives where electricity is affordable, the sun does not shine every day, and snow covers the panels so they make zero electricity for three months or more of the year, forget about solar. That is unless you want to change your lifestyle so that you are essentially living off a car battery. Not me.

You clearly have very limited knowledge of solar...

Agree.

'car battery'? Please. Yes, there ARE places where it makes less sense, or where payback is longer.

BUT...California isnt the only state where it works, and it is NOT 'essentially living off a car battery'

 

[Git]

^^^^^^^^^^^^This pretty much covers it.......................

Except we are talking about what is called a 'grid tied' system versus an 'off the grid' system

Grid Tied - you are still connected to and buy electricity from your utility when your panels are not producing (at night, during a snow storm, etc). And when your panels produce more electricity than you are using at the moment, the excess goes back onto the grid and you get credit for it.

In California for example, I posted that if you use a lot of electricity in one month you will be paying 31¢ per kWh for it when you get into Tier 3! But with solar panels, you can offset your usage and stay in Tier 1 or not pay anything at all

I could care less about going green and save the environment, etc - I went solar to save money

 

[saewoody]

I got tired of reading all the negative responses, so after 3 pages of posts decided to make my own. I have had a "no cost solar" install for 2 full years now. I have 32 panels that produce more than my electricity usage through the year. I also only pay a lease payment on the panels that is approximately 50% of what my electricity bill for a family of 6 was. I live in CT, so it is not prime solar geography, but it works for us. My roof happened to be nearly brand new when the solar was installed. The rates in CT seem to be constantly rising. And I have four kids that will be in the house anywhere from 7-16 more years. For us, it was a no brained. We have a nearly perfect south facing roof with no obstacles. In 18 years, when the lease is up, I can have the system, or what I will more likely do is replace it with something much more up to date; maybe solar shingles at that point.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ard]

I got tired of reading all the negative responses, so after 3 pages of posts decided to make my own. I have had a "no cost solar" install for 2 full years now. I have 32 panels that produce more than my electricity usage through the year. I also only pay a lease payment on the panels that is approximately 50% of what my electricity bill for a family of 6 was. I live in CT, so it is not prime solar geography, but it works for us. My roof happened to be nearly brand new when the solar was installed. The rates in CT seem to be constantly rising. And I have four kids that will be in the house anywhere from 7-16 more years. For us, it was a no brained. We have a nearly perfect south facing roof with no obstacles. In 18 years, when the lease is up, I can have the system, or what I will more likely do is replace it with something much more up to date; maybe solar shingles at that point.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So this deal basically only cut your electric costs in half???????

32 panels, and you produce more than you use?

If those things are true, that isnt a deal Id have gone for.

Sorry about being negative...

 

[MrBreeze]

A lot of naysayers, and no doubt there are some "scams" out there, so like anything, do your research, but for me, solar makes sense here in the valley of the sun (Phoenix)

10Kw system from Solar City (Tesla now owns). 15 year lease. Zero money down. $220 per month. My electric bills from the utility co (APS) run from $150 spring/fall to $400 in summer. On average it's about the same or slightly cheaper to pay a lease payment to Tesla than APS for power and it's clean. A no brainer for me. No coal, no natural gas, no nuclear - leaving me feeling slightly better when I burn fossil fuels in my toys.

Yes, solar farms are far more efficient for creating energy than residential, but that's not what the OP was inquiring about.

 

[Showkey]

Except we are talking about what is called a 'grid tied' system versus an 'off the grid' system

Grid Tied - you are still connected to and buy electricity from your utility when your panels are not producing (at night, during a snow storm, etc). And when your panels produce more electricity than you are using at the moment, the excess goes back onto the grid and you get credit for it.

In California for example, I posted that if you use a lot of electricity in one month you will be paying 31¢ per kWh for it when you get into Tier 3! But with solar panels, you can offset your usage and stay in Tier 1 or not pay anything at all

I could care less about going green and save the environment, etc - I went solar to save money

DAH?...............in this region we pay .10 per KWH and the power co. ( credits) pays .02 per KWH if you produce more than you use. So the power co is not interested and does not encourage ( makes no economic sense) to make more power than you use. Yes.....there maybe other states like Kalifornia with ultra high costs, taxes and subsidies.

 

[ard]

A lot of naysayers, and no doubt there are some "scams" out there, so like anything, do your research, but for me, solar makes sense here in the valley of the sun (Phoenix)

10Kw system from Solar City (Tesla now owns). 15 year lease. Zero money down. $220 per month. My electric bills from the utility co (APS) run from $150 spring/fall to $400 in summer. On average it's about the same or slightly cheaper to pay a lease payment to Tesla than APS for power and it's clean. A no brainer for me. No coal, no natural gas, no nuclear - leaving me feeling slightly better when I burn fossil fuels in my toys.

Yes, solar farms are far more efficient for creating energy than residential, but that's not what the OP was inquiring about.

I'm curious... So your net energy costs are precisely the same, the only benefit is being 'green'? And in 15 years you don't own it??

A simple interest loan at 3% for 32k is 220 a month for 15 years....

Anyway, lots of ways to figure out solar- importantly, what works in one state or in one utility area may be very different from where I live, or anyone else for that matter.


IN CALIFORNIA, if you make MORE than you use, YOU GET NOTHING. They specifically don't want net energy producers.

 

[hd54kh]

Just a quick question, do the leased systems place a lien on your property?

That would be an issue for me as well as a roof install.

I basically detest any penetrations or hardware installed affecting roof reliability. What happens if any roof repairs due to age or weather. Does the home owner or the PV leasing company make the call. And will your homeowners insurance pay up for the R&R.

Also the roof install is dangerous for fire response, how is that handled for fireman safety (voltage and accessibility) and ventilation?

Just seems everything needs to be perfect for the duration of the system to see the benefit.

Terry

 

[Git]

Just a quick question, do the leased systems place a lien on your property?

YES

I basically detest any penetrations or hardware installed affecting roof reliability. What happens if any roof repairs due to age or weather. Does the home owner or the PV leasing company make the call? And will your homeowners insurance pay up for the R&R.

I can only speak from my own experience where I purchased the system outright. The installation workmanship (roof leaks) is guaranteed for 10 years. Regarding roof installations, I went with what I consider to be one of the best systems - quickmount pv. We have a concrete tile roof. The tiles are moved, a standoff is screwed through the roof to a rafter and then flashed at the roof membrane. Then each tile has a hole cut in it for the standoff to protrude and that is flashed on top of the tile. Not cheap but effective
http://www.quickmountpv.com/products/universal-tile-mount.html?cur=1

Also the roof install is dangerous for fire response, how is that handled for fireman safety (voltage and accessibility) and ventilation?

California requires a basically a 3' wide path along the eaves and the ridge for access. Additionally, there is a placard on the main electrical panel showing where the roof should be accessed from the ground. All DC lines (coming from the panels) are specifically labeled every several feet just as a warning to indicate they may be live even if the main breaker is shut off

https://energycodeace.com/site/cust...californiafirecodesolaraccessrequirements.htm

Just seems everything needs to be perfect for the duration of the system to see the benefit.

Terry

Everything is prone to failure. Most systems have a web based 'dashboard' where you can easily see if a panel is not producing compared to the adjacent panels. It's not rocket science - you have the panel, the inverter and the wiring

In the year since our system was installed - we have had one problem. The inverter went off line because it was not getting enough voltage. Turns out it was the power companies problem - voltage was dropping in the afternoon down to 220v causing the inverter to trip. The inverter flagged it and displayed a code to figure out what was happening and I called the power company to have them fix it

I expect this system to last 20 years minimum and when it is all said and done, it will have saved me over $45,000 in electricity (and that is using today's rates). My panels are from a reputable manufacturer (LG) and have a 12-year warranty. Today's price for each panel is around $300. Even if I would have to replace all 36 panels after the warranty expires that is about $10k and I would imagine they would be a lot cheaper 12 years from know

And don't forget - the government kicked in 30% of the cost

 

[ptgarcia]

And don't forget - the government kicked in 30% of the cost

You mean the taxpayers kicked in 30% of the cost.

 

[Git]

You mean the taxpayers kicked in 30% of the cost.

Yep - me included

45% of Americans pay no federal income tax and wouldn't get the 30% Federal Rebate

 

[CJ7VFR]

...I basically detest any penetrations or hardware installed affecting roof reliability. What happens if any roof repairs due to age or weather. Does the home owner or the PV leasing company make the call. And will your homeowners insurance pay up for the R&R....Terry

This is a long story, so skip it if you want to.

I can give you the name of the guy three doors down from me who will agree with the problems of penetrations thru the roof and the problems they can, and will eventually cause. He had solar panels put up, and then taken down three months later, due to the roof damage the people who installed the panels did to his home.

He wanted solar put up to "save money" and "go green" and all the other things people say. So he went with Trinity Solar, because they contacted him and said they were a "major" company, so he thought he would be saving money and the environment. Plus, he said they told him about all the great warranties and everything else they tell you to get you to buy their system. So my neighbor thought he was golden.

Well, apparently, in my area of New Jersey anyway, Trinity farms out some of the actual installation of their systems to other contractors. The non-English speaking "workers" who showed up to install his panels didn't install them right, and they literally bolted the brackets that hold the panels to the roof by drilling the bracket mounting holes right thru the exterior of the roofing shingles!

Yep, they drilled holes right thru the entire roof, bolted on the brackets, and put up the panels. So of course the very first time it rained he had a flood in his house. And the best part? He called Trinity and they said it is not their fault, and they are not liable because they did not "install" the panels. So they would not pay for the damaged roof or pay for the damage to the interior of his home due to the water coming in.

He called the contractor, and they said they were not liable, and it was not their fault because that is the way Trinity told them to do it. Of course, Trinity denies this.

So now he is out almost $30,000 for the removal of the improperly installed panels, the removal of the damaged roof and underlayment, the installation of a new roof, and fixing up the water damage to the interior of his home. And he has the added benefit of the ongoing court costs to try to remedy this whole thing as he has sued both Trinity and the contractor.

Oh, and of course the contractor is now claiming they are no longer in business, as their phone number and online website is now down. They probably just closed down and opened up under a new name. So he will never get anything from them. He is now done with anything "green" or that will "save him money" or whatever.

He is also having problems with his home owners insurance because they say that the installation of solar panels is not covered under his policy, as they are not considered an item that is "necessary" to a house, and they are considered a non-essential add on. So they are no help either.

The moral to my neighbors story is don't trust ANYONE coming to your house to sell you solar. If you insist on going solar, do the homework yourself, get references from other people in your neighborhood that have solar panels, and make sure they show you, in writing via bills or whatever, that they are indeed actually saving money by having the solar panels on their roof.

Jim

 

[tyme2par4]

While that is certainly unfortunate, I can assure you, it is in no way the norm.

There are thousands of roof penetrations made for solar installations done every day. When they are done correctly, they will remain water tight as long as the roofing.

If the contract was with Trinity solar, then they are liable. They should be going after the contractor to recoup their costs.

Do your homework. Make sure there is a reputable company doing installation, and make sure the contract is sound.

 

[CJ7VFR]

While that is certainly unfortunate, I can assure you, it is in no way the norm.

There are thousands of roof penetrations made for solar installations done every day. When they are done correctly, they will remain water tight as long as the roofing...

True, but once you have been burned in the magnitude my neighbor has been, there is no one that can tell him different. There are other people around me that also have solar panels, and they are not saving as much as they were promised. Because they still have to use the electricity from the local utility companies, people who have solar panels, at least in my area of New Jersey, are being charged higher rates for the delivery of utility electricity because according to the electric companies the people with solar are not paying their fare share of the costs for the infrastructure of the lines, poles, transformers and the actual machinery that is used to generate the power. So they charge solar panel customers higher rates per kilowatt hour than everyone else. It is not much more, but it adds up pretty quick, and the savings any solar panels give them is pretty small, if anything.

If the contract was with Trinity solar, then they are liable. They should be going after the contractor to recoup their costs.

Do your homework. Make sure there is a reputable company doing installation, and make sure the contract is sound.

Trinity says they are not liable because they did not do the installation. They told my neighbor to go after the contractor who did the install. The contractor says they are not liable because they followed what Trinity told them to do. Which we all know is BS. But that is where my neighbor is at now.

He has been back and forth for months trying to get this resolved.

Jim

 

[Git]

Sounds like someone didn't do their homework when choosing a solar contractor or like most people, he went with the lowest bidder

People get hung up on the brand of the panel, etc - but they don't even ask about what really counts - how the system is going to be mounted to THEIR roof!

The industry standard for any roof penetration is double flashed. (Once on the roof membrane and again over the roofing material

These pics are from my install - very happy with this company

1. Roof tiles are removed and the standoff is screwed to a joist/truss
2-3 The first aluminum flashing gets caulked and placed over the standoff
4. Tarpaper is added over the aluminum
5. The roof tiles are notched/cut and replaced
6. The second aluminum flashing is added so that it tucks under the next row of tiles
7. A rubber seal gets and the L brackets are added to the top, and all that is left is the mounting rails and panels

 

[Gila Monster]

This really isn't rocket science, there are certain states that have jacked up utility rates through the roof in order to pay for "green" projects like solar. They also want electricity rates as high as possible in order to make people ration their energy use and look for alternatives (like solar)

If you live in one of these areas, solar can make financial sense for your home. But it's still a scam, it's just a scam on the tax payer and rate payer to pay for your solar project.


If solar made financial sense, you wouldn't need all the government subsidies and handouts.

 

[Git]

It really makes me laugh when I read comments like 'its a scam'

There are thousands of happy solar customers. It works. It saves money. It saves the environment, I could go on and on

Yes - there are subsidies. It is a developing technology that will eventually benefit everyone as we move away from fossil fuels. It's no worse than my tax dollars going to 'public schools' etc that we have never used...

Regarding the argument that solar customers aren't paying their fare share. I have a minimum $10 bill each month that covers my use of the electric companies grid. I have no complaint about that

Not to change the subject, but I still have this thread bookmarked on a solar site. Lots of good info and some pretty good examples (with pics) on what can go wrong. The guy eventually takes it into his own hands and it turns out good. Well worth looking at if your thinking about solar

https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/foru...eally-bad-looking-for-some-help-advice-please

 

[ard]

True, but once you have been burned in the magnitude my neighbor has been, there is no one that can tell him different. There are other people around me that also have solar panels, and they are not saving as much as they were promised. Because they still have to use the electricity from the local utility companies, people who have solar panels, at least in my area of New Jersey, are being charged higher rates for the delivery of utility electricity because according to the electric companies the people with solar are not paying their fare share of the costs for the infrastructure of the lines, poles, transformers and the actual machinery that is used to generate the power. So they charge solar panel customers higher rates per kilowatt hour than everyone else. It is not much more, but it adds up pretty quick, and the savings any solar panels give them is pretty small, if anything.



Trinity says they are not liable because they did not do the installation. They told my neighbor to go after the contractor who did the install. The contractor says they are not liable because they followed what Trinity told them to do. Which we all know is BS. But that is where my neighbor is at now.

He has been back and forth for months trying to get this resolved.

Jim

I'm not doubting what you've been told, but I can tell you there are 'people that get screwed' and 'people that don't get screwed'. Yes, we'd all like to think we are in that latter bin, but some people are just dumb.

You say he has been going back and forth for months?!??! There is no 'forth'- you call the people that signed the contract, and they tell you to contact the installer, WHY WOULD YOU EVEN CALL?????

You all a lawyer, you call a forensic contractor- you pay 500, 1500, $2500 or whatever you need for the documentation to support a lawsuit. Etc etc

You don't keep calling people, (while unilaterally taking action and spending $30k more), and bleating over the phone with them.

JMO

(And I'm not shooting the messanger ... )

 

[hd54kh]

I lost a long reply, just click happy.

So now a quick reply.

May a better question for the OP to ask would be a poll. Does GJ have that feature?

A valid answer for bren5270 would need to be answered by members here that have had their installations for the 10 to 20 year range. Any input for recent system installations could not be answered better than the salesman selling it.
Is it in the plus, minus or break even range.

Real cost as opposed to speculated costs.


Roof replacements, physical damage, equipment failures, maintenance..........
All this real world experience will really let us know if it does work out or not.

Terry