No ground to ceiling fixture

[theoldwizard1]

I'm helping my son with his "fixer-upper" house. He wants to put fans in the bedrooms (house has A/C, but it was added after being built so ducting is not the best). When we pulled out the ceiling boxes, the NM only had 2 conductors, hot and neutral, no ground. This is very odd because every outlet in the house has a ground (I checked them all with a tester).

Should we be concerned or just live with it ?

 

[mrb]

is the house wired with BX or FMC? Have you pulled a receptacle to see where its ground is coming from?

 

[Berserker]

I am going to say live with it. The alternative is pulling cable to every fixture in the house. If you ever have the ceilings open, then run new cable.

I would be more concerned in damp locations. But you usually don't touch a light.

Some of the old romex didn't have a ground, same as outlets didn't either.

 

[theoldwizard1]

is the house wired with BX or FMC? Have you pulled a receptacle to see where its ground is coming from?

The house is wired with old Romex (non-metallic) cable. I have been inside many of the outlet boxes and inside each, there is a ground conductor connected to the back of the metal box (which meet code in the time the house was built).

The panel is newer and has been inspected recently by a licensed electrician (fixed some weird grounding there).

As I said, all outlets have been tested good with an outlet tester.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I would be more concerned in damp locations. But you usually don't touch a light.

All new wiring in the laundry/utility room (and both bathrooms for that matter) including GFIs and 4 contact dryer outlet. (Which meant I had to go out and buy a 4 prong dryer cord. Sigh.)

Some of the old romex didn't have a ground, same as outlets didn't either.

I know that. I just can not figure out why they would skimp and run non-grounded "Romex" just to a couple of ceiling boxes ! Those were weird boxes. Plastic (Bakelite ?) with a metal nailing bracket riveted on.

 

[nehog]

The house is wired with old Romex (non-metallic) cable. I have been inside many of the outlet boxes and inside each, there is a ground conductor connected to the back of the metal box (which meet code in the time the house was built).

The panel is newer and has been inspected recently by a licensed electrician (fixed some weird grounding there).

As I said, all outlets have been tested good with an outlet tester.

Something is wrong here... If the cable has no ground, there is no way the boxes can be at ground, unless there is conduit that you don't know about.

Also, I doubt that screwing the ground to a metal box that is isolated from ground met code at any time.

And that leaves the "inspected... tested good with an outlet tester" comment which leaves me to think there is more there then what you are seeing. I'd check to see if the boxes are grounded some how (maybe what you think is BX is not?) or there is a ground you don't know about.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Something is wrong here... If the cable has no ground, there is no way the boxes can be at ground, ...

Correct, the CEILING boxes have no ground. The ceiling boxes were plastic. Of course, the new ceiling fan boxes are metal.

Also, I doubt that screwing the ground to a metal box that is isolated from ground met code at any time.

Look closely at any duplex outlet. The ground has a conductive path to a metal box (and in my case ground) through the mounting screws. Attaching the ground wire to the metal box was accepted practice for many years.

And that leaves the "inspected... tested good with an outlet tester" comment which leaves me to think there is more there then what you are seeing. I'd check to see if the boxes are grounded some how (maybe what you think is BX is not?) or there is a ground you don't know about.

The entire house is wired with NM (non-metalic) "Romex" cable. Again, the WALL outlet boxes have a ground conductor (bare copper) attached the back of the metallic box.

FYI, all new wiring was done with plastic boxes and, of course, the ground is connected directly to the ground (green) screw on the outlet.

I may not be a pro, but I do know how to do wiring, including using a ringer, an outlet tester and a DVM. I completely re-wired the garage at this house, including adding 220V breaker at the house panel (they were only using 1 leg of a 10/3 cable) and then through a fused disconnect in the garage to 2 separate circuits, one 14 gauge 15A and the other 12 gauge 20A. The only mistake I made was I did not know GFIs were now required in a garage. 10 minute fix by inserting a GFI as the first outlet in each circuit.

 

[JimDon]

Wow, just WOW! Now before you all get into a major ******* match and want to electrocute each other take a step back. What you are describing is seen over and over and over in homes. Sparky or handyman, from the older days, runs the romex up to the ceiling box, which happens to be one of the older fiber boxes, or a plastic box. He figures, hell, I'm using a non-metallic box, goes to a ceiling light, or fan no place for the ground wire on that fixture -- SNIP. Problem solved.
I cannot begin to relate how many boxes I've come across where some dumb handyman or an old school sparky clips the ground wire on a fixture where there is no landing area for it. Wrong thing to do, yet was done all the time.
The solution? Go back into the box. Check the end of the romex coming into the box very very carefully. I'll be money there is a stub of a ground wire in there. If there is, pull the romex cable further into the box, there should be a bit of slack, and wire nut a piece of ground wire to it and finish up as usual.
Hope this helps.
JimDon

 

[Berserker]

If I remember right, when I was an electrician, light switches didn't have grounds. There was a time when not every thing was grounded. Grounds are good, but how much good does it do grounding a plastic light switch?

 

[theoldwizard1]

The solution? Go back into the box. Check the end of the romex coming into the box very very carefully. I'll bet money there is a stub of a ground wire in there.

Good suggestion.

Been there, done that. No joy.

 

[JimDon]

OK then, well, scratch that idea. Seriously though, I've seen that wire clipped off more than I care to remember.
Jim

 

[ishiboo]

Good suggestion.

Been there, done that. No joy.

Save for tantric *** parties using the ceiling fan as a tie-off point, I wouldn't worry about the ground too much. People live for YEARS without grounds or GFCI on anything, when was the last time you heard of someone being electrocuted? Let alone from a ceiling fan.

There are some things which make a substantial safety margin - GFCIs in wet areas (or places where you'd run a cord to a wet area) for example. But the safety margin benefit of having the ground is low, and on a ceiling fan? Almost nil.

 

[Berserker]

Save for tantric *** parties using the ceiling fan as a tie-off point, .

Unless you got real tight wire nuts, that doesn't work for most WI girls.

 

[Joe92GT]

The house is wired with old Romex (non-metallic) cable. I have been inside many of the outlet boxes and inside each, there is a ground conductor connected to the back of the metal box (which meet code in the time the house was built).

The panel is newer and has been inspected recently by a licensed electrician (fixed some weird grounding there).

As I said, all outlets have been tested good with an outlet tester.

The question here is not that there is a pigtail from the outlet to the metal box. That is all well and good.

The question is how are those metal boxes grounded, and by grounded that means connected all the way back to the main panel ground bars. If the wire in the house is indeed 2 wire romex, and not in cable then the outlet boxes in the wall can't have a good path to ground.

Need to do some more investigating. See if there is potential between the neutral and ground on one of the outlets. If the box is just floating as a ground, there should be a voltage here.

 

[theoldwizard1]

The question is how are those metal boxes grounded, and by grounded that means connected all the way back to the main panel ground bars. If the wire in the house is indeed 2 wire romex, and not in cable then the outlet boxes in the wall can't have a good path to ground.

How many time do I have to say it !

All of the WALL outlet boxes that I have looked inside (which is at least 90% of them) have a ground wire. Admittedly attached to the back of the metal box. Every wall outlet in the house was tested with an outlet tester. The tester confirms that the ground is "good". (For less than $5, everyone should have one of these tester in their home tool box !)

It was only the 3 bedroom CEILING light fixture boxes (plastic) that did NOT have a ground wire.

 

[thrifty bill]

How many time do I have to say it !

All of the WALL outlet boxes that I have looked inside (which is at least 90% of them) have a ground wire. Admittedly attached to the back of the metal box. Every wall outlet in the house was tested with an outlet tester. The tester confirms that the ground is "good". (For less than $5, everyone should have one of these tester in their home tool box !)

It was only the 3 bedroom CEILING light fixture boxes (plastic) that did NOT have a ground wire.

FWIW: I am rehabbing a duplex right now. Every outlet has the bare wire ground, every light switch and light fixture has no bare wire ground. I've seen this on several older homes I have rehabbed. Due to some sketchy installation techniques, I am replacing all of it.

Personally, I would be rewiring those light fixtures, IF you have good access.

 

[nehog]

How many time do I have to say it !

All of the WALL outlet boxes that I have looked inside (which is at least 90% of them) have a ground wire. Admittedly attached to the back of the metal box. ...

Dang, now I see what you are saying. I think we were seeing (reading) that the wire from the ground terminal on the outlet went to the screw in the box and we could not figure out how the box itself was grounded.

Now, what you are describing was considered normal and acceptable!

At least as I see it from this viewpoint. (Personally, were I to do work on that, I'd add a ground pigtail to the outlet from the ground wire in the box if one didn't exist already.)



Now, to your original question. IMHO, just live with it... Or if you really feel it is important pull a ground (that is all the cable, with a ground) but for a ceiling fixture/fan I don't see a need. I'd use plastic (insulated) hose for the fan's vent to the outdoors however, just in case there is leakage.

 

[Joe92GT]

How many time do I have to say it !

All of the WALL outlet boxes that I have looked inside (which is at least 90% of them) have a ground wire. Admittedly attached to the back of the metal box. Every wall outlet in the house was tested with an outlet tester. The tester confirms that the ground is "good". (For less than $5, everyone should have one of these tester in their home tool box !)

It was only the 3 bedroom CEILING light fixture boxes (plastic) that did NOT have a ground wire.

I was mistaken, as pointed out already, they way I read it sounded like the outlet was grounded to the box, not that the box grounded to the romex.

I wouldn't worry about ceiling box grounds, I would never omit one, but wouldn't rip apart a ceiling to install one.

As far as testers, I have everything from the 5 dollar plug in tester, to 10k dollar harmonic distortion and power quality loggers, the perks of being in the power measurement industry.

 

[Berserker]

I
I wouldn't worry about ceiling box grounds, I would never omit one, but wouldn't rip apart a ceiling to install one.
.

I think this is the best answer.


As far as the outlet boxes being grounded. How is the wire ran box to box? If its BX without a ground wire, your testet may think its grounded, but its not a great ground. Again I probably wouldn't rip open the walls just for that.

If its conduit between the outlet boxes, you are good.

 

[Berserker]

On a side note, not 100% on the code, but if you have an outlet without a ground, you can install GFI for protection.

 

[cowboyjosh]

On a side note, not 100% on the code, but if you have an outlet without a ground, you can install GFI for protection.

It'll meet code as best your going to get in an old house short of a rewire, if you apply the little POS stickers that came with the GFCI on the GFCI and downstream outlets that states "no equipment ground".

I read the OP that there is a ground wire in the outlet boxes and if test reveal a good ground, I wouldn't do anything more then leaving **** alone. As for the ceiling box without a ground, its fine.